Not having a trackball, big mistake?

[releasedtruth]

I'd really like a trackball, but the 6.5" mounting plate curbs my space on the 24" CP I have. Standard layout, 2 joys, 6 buttons per. I wanted a 3" translucent blue or even 2 1/4" but saving .5" on the plate is no help. Will I miss the trackball or should I figure out a way? I'd hate to miss out on anything. I have 4 buttons mounted around the top of the cp for other functions.

[brophog]

You'll find one of the more annoying aspects of this is that you absolutely must balance out your wants. There are so many desirables that you can't have it all (although some have tried!).

[DaveMMR]

Big mistake?  No.  Trying to fit everything on one panel is - especially a 24" one. 

Brophog is correct is saying that there's that annoying stench of 'comprimise' in every minute of design of your control panel layout.  Some people try to stick everything on one panel and forget that comfort should be 'priority one'.

Unless you really have a specific game in mind, you're going to be using the standard 8-ways most of the time (especially now since there are good solutions that can make them act more than acceptablely as 4-ways).  You could always go with a dedicated panel for other controls and swap panels when the need arises.  The downside is that there's a bit of an incovienence involved if you want to play a quick game of Missle Command after a long SFII session.  On the upside, your won't clutter up the panel with excess controls, which in turn, makes the panel look better (appearance is important, IMO, as these cabs usually draw attention to themselves in a living room or den) and play better (no joysticks in the way of your Golden Tee swing).   Also know that too many buttons and controls on a panel leads to confusion to friends and family who may want to play on your cab.  Less is definately more.

Yeah, comprimise is a PITA, but necessary.

And although you didn't ask, I would reconsider the joystick 'angling'.  Straight, parallel to the screen is *always* best. 

[missioncontrol]

there's nothing more annoying in looks to see someone try to cram everything possible onto a cp... sure there will be games you wish you had a trackball for but if you don't have room then you can allways make a swapable CP with a trackball....

[Animeka]

Big mistake?  No.  Trying to fit everything on one panel is - especially a 24" one. 

Brophog is correct is saying that there's that annoying stench of 'comprimise' in every minute of design of your control panel layout.  Some people try to stick everything on one panel and forget that comfort should be 'priority one'.

Unless you really have a specific game in mind, you're going to be using the standard 8-ways most of the time (especially now since there are good solutions that can make them act more than acceptablely as 4-ways).  You could always go with a dedicated panel for other controls and swap panels when the need arises.  The downside is that there's a bit of an incovienence involved if you want to play a quick game of Missle Command after a long SFII session.  On the upside, your won't clutter up the panel with excess controls, which in turn, makes the panel look better (appearance is important, IMO, as these cabs usually draw attention to themselves in a living room or den) and play better (no joysticks in the way of your Golden Tee swing).   Also know that too many buttons and controls on a panel leads to confusion to friends and family who may want to play on your cab.  Less is definately more.

Yeah, comprimise is a PITA, but necessary.

And although you didn't ask, I would reconsider the joystick 'angling'.  Straight, parallel to the screen is *always* best. 

I have a 24" panel, I'm trying different layouts (See "Another Layout Question" thread) and the one I currently have works just well with a 3" trackball, a spinner, a 4 way and 2 8 ways. Thru trial and error, making mockups of the panel and playtesting them is the only way to do it...

Yes, it's all about compromises, I had to deepen the panel in order to fit everything but it works and is very playable and comfortable.

Marc

[MYX]

Make multiple CPs and swap em out. Have a TB CP and a 2 Joystick CP and perhaps a spinner CP(but you gotta include a major Havock spinner too.

[severdhed]

i ended up installing a trackball in my panel at the last minute, it ended up in an awkward place....but i found that i really dont find myself wanting to play many trackball games, so it just sits there in the panel unused.  The only time i really use it is when i need a mouse in windows. 

so you have to ask yourself, how many trackball games are you really going to want to play?  and are they worth cluttering up your panel with a trackball? 

i ended up installing mine in a smaller separate panel that goes between the regular control panel and the monitor.  I already had the panel in place so i had  a place to mount some additional controls like: a volume knob, power switch for my dreamcast, serial port switch to swap controls between PC and dreamcast, KVM switch button for switching monitor between pc and dreamcast...i had some empty space and it was big enough for a trackball and two mouse buttons.  it works well, i can play games with it, but it is positioned a little deep in the cabinet for extended play.  it is nice when i need to work on the PC, but for gaming it never gets used

[releasedtruth]

You guys are absolutely right. I'd prefer the unangled buttons myself as well and to be honest, I probably wanted the trackball because it'd look hot lit up more than to actually use it. Sad, but true. I wasn't much of a trackball game player in the past and that probably won't change.

Save some money that way too I guess.

A clean CP is pretty key imo. It would probably give me room to slap on a steering wheel for those Chase HQ/Outrun needs I'll have in the future.  I have a wireless keyboard/mouse setup for the mouse needs so I'll be fine. Thanks again

[ArtMAME]

Make multiple CPs and swap em out. Have a TB CP and a 2 Joystick CP and perhaps a spinner CP(but you gotta include a major Havock spinner too.

Yes, try swappable control panels.  I made drop-in swappable CPs for mine.  Check out my project thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=54556.msg534960#msg534960

I am very happy with this setup and it takes less than a minute to switch panels.  It really keeps the whole cabinet looking clean and lean and mean.

[needlesmcgirk]

Well, how much do you plan on playing Centipede?

[releasedtruth]

I was never much for centipede, crystal castles, missile command....

My CP is hinged so swappable panels may be an option, but unlikely since it'll be printed and lexan'd. If I have some happ 4/8 way supers I should be set, but I'm gonna take the swap idea to heart. Maybe make the alternate panel a flat black formica for the odd cases when I need it.

[ahofle]

I can't imagine not having a trackball on my control panel.  There are just way too many GREAT arcade games that use a trackball.  Using it as a mouse in windows is just icing on the cake.  I think your layout looks good, so I'm not sure what the issue you have with it is.

[ArtMAME]

Yes...I love those old trackball games!!!   

Atari always made the best trackball games.

I tried to put a trackball on my Robotron/Defender/combo panel.  I think I could have put it under the Hyperspace button, it would have been a very tight fit, but I decided just to go with a trackball only swappable CP.  Plus I had already built the TB panel anyway.  I am quite satisfied with it.

I have actually thought about building an Atari mini-cabaret style cab with trackball and buttons only and put all the Atari Trackball classics on it.  I would use Birch or Oak plywood and stain it and polyurathane it so it looks like one of  those old wood-grained Atari cabaret cabs. 

Kinda like these:

[leapinlew]

You could try mounting it without the trackball plate. Thats what I did. You can check it out on my showcase cabinet in the project announcement thread. My plate was bigger than my template I printed so I had to figure out a way to mount it.

I love some of the party trackball games. Shuuz, shuffleshot, capcom bowling... not to mention the old school games.

[DaveMMR]

A few replies here:

My CP is hinged so swappable panels may be an option, but unlikely since it'll be printed and lexan'd. If I have some happ 4/8 way supers I should be set, but I'm gonna take the swap idea to heart. Maybe make the alternate panel a flat black formica for the odd cases when I need it.

Lexan and artwork shouldn't stop you from going swappable.  The hinge will.  Unhinge and use panel clamps - cheap and effective.   

Yes, try swappable control panels.  I made drop-in swappable CPs for mine.  Check out my project thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=54556.msg534960#msg534960

I am very happy with this setup and it takes less than a minute to switch panels.  It really keeps the whole cabinet looking clean and lean and mean.

Very nice!   

I think your layout looks good, so I'm not sure what the issue you have with it is.

Except for the angles of the joysticks.  Parallel and straight.   You will be thankful you fixed that before construction.  And resist any urge you have to mirror player 2's controls.  Sorry to beat that point like a dead horse but those are my two big pet peeves: angled controls and mirrored controls.

But if you're only half-interested in the trackball, you can wait on that part.  Make your panel removable and add it down the road. 

[ahofle]

I think your layout looks good, so I'm not sure what the issue you have with it is.

Except for the angles of the joysticks.  Parallel and straight. 

I agree that angling the sticks is not good, but how can you tell they are angled from the image he provided (ie no visible bolt pattern)?  I just assumed that the sticks were perpendicular to the bezel, and I don't see much of a problem having the buttons a bit slanted (although personally I'd have them all level).

[pointdablame]

A few things:

You layout would likely work fine as long as you didnt angle the joysticks.  The button placement woudln't be a big deal IMO and could work fairly well.

If you just *HAD* to have a trackball and wanted a straight button layout, you could grind away an area of the trackball plate for some more room.  Someone did that previously and it worked fine.

If you don't think you'll play many trackball games, don't wast the time, money, and CP space.  For me, I have a number of Windows games that I *need* on my machine and love the old trackball games, so no trackball is not an option for me.

1) Mouse within windows
2) PC games that use trackball (Tiger woods, hamsterball, etc etc)
3) Marble Madness
4) Missile Command 

That's enough reason for me right there.  if you don't care about any of that, don't bother, your CP will look cleaner.

Also, you mention "4/8 way Supers"  Be aware that IMO (and the opinions of many others) that the Super is a pretty bad 4way joystick, and swapping them to 4way is not easy.  If you really want a 4/8 way setup, either get a joy that is a better 4way in 4way mode, is more easily swappable, or have 2 seperate joys.  Just my .02, but I can't stand Supers in 4way.  Get a Ms. Pac Reunion stick which is based on teh Super but much better.

[Sizzler]

You could try mounting it without the trackball plate.

It's true.  Not only is the plate bigger than the trackball but the trackball assembly is also probably not square.  Since trackballs are shaped more like a rhombus than a square, you can utilize the space where the two corners would be if it were square.

[ahofle]

1) Mouse within windows
2) PC games that use trackball (Tiger woods, hamsterball, etc etc)
3) Marble Madness
4) Missile Command 

Have you ever tried the PC game 'Feeding Frenzy'?  That (and Zuma) are the only games my wife is even remotely interested in playing on my cab.  Feeding Frenzy works incredibly well with a trackball -- in fact I've even seen an Ultracade stand up cab version of it in a local arcade here.

[DaveMMR]

I think your layout looks good, so I'm not sure what the issue you have with it is.

Except for the angles of the joysticks.  Parallel and straight. 

I agree that angling the sticks is not good, but how can you tell they are angled from the image he provided (ie no visible bolt pattern)?  I just assumed that the sticks were perpendicular to the bezel, and I don't see much of a problem having the buttons a bit slanted (although personally I'd have them all level).

I assumed they are angled because the layout of the buttons led to that logical conclusion.  If someone not in the know (a friend, relative, etc. who doesn't know anything about bolt patters) went up to the CP to play a game, they might think the same thing and be confused when the charcater is not moving the way they expect it.  If the buttons are laid out that way for some ergonomic reason, they probably should be curved identically and work along an imaginary horizontal line. 

Assuming the joystick is staight: Will the buttons that way work?   Yes.   Is it the best way to lay them out?  Not at all.   

[releasedtruth]

I'm going to straighten those buttons out and do another image with a non-mounting plate trackball.

[DaveMMR]

I'm going to straighten those buttons out and do another image with a non-mounting plate trackball.

 

[MikeDeuce]

Oooh reconsidering...

Don't forget Golden Tee, Shuffleshot, all the bowling games, and rampart... Would be awesome for when "the guys" are over.

If I ever get around to it, I want 2 tballs for my future cab for rampart and MM alone! (Assuming I can figure out how to make it work)

[u_rebelscum]

If I ever get around to it, I want 2 tballs for my future cab for rampart and MM alone! (Assuming I can figure out how to make it work)

Official mame now supports multiple mice/tracballs/lightguns.  Just make sure they are hooked up as seperate mice (optipac, multiple USB trackballs, seperate mouse hacks, etc), and to map them correctly if needed (like you would any other input when you use, example, joy 3 for player 1).

[releasedtruth]

I threw together a slight redesign leaving the trackball in there. I'm being convinced I'll miss it if it's gone and if this setup gives adequate space, we'll have a winner. I'll start a thread when my cabinet gets built on the 18th-20th. Projected Nexus will rise!



Not that I don't still need lacking knowledge on other fronts. Never ending research cycle...

[releasedtruth]

Well, I'm retarded. I didn't take into account the mounting plates for the joysticks (3.6") and my buttons didn't include the bezels so I'm back where I was, trackball = doesn't fit.   Ah well, it'll be classy without it. A wheel, that I have to make work. I can't live without Outrun

[severdhed]

there are ways to mount a trackball without a mounting plate...to save some room.  my panel is made out of 5/8" plywood. (trackball is in separate panel, main panel is MDF) instead of artwork and plexi on top, i covered it with a sheet of (i dont know what) that my mom had lying in her shed.  it is like plexiglass, but it is red and opaque.  it was somewhat flexible, 1/8" thick, and i cut it by scoring it with a razor knife and snaping it over a table.  it worked out nice because i could cut out the wood to match the shape of the trackball housing, then just cut a round hole for the trackball in the plastic and bolt it in that way.

as for the button spacing...mine are all 1.5" apart on center...joysticks are 3" on center from the left-most button.

this panel sits behind the main panel, there were some odd shaped things i needed mounted in here.  i cut out the shape of teh trackball so it could mount easily, i did the same for the serial port switch, and the volume knob

[Chunce DeLeone]

Or you could use a router to carve out the panel and bring the TB flush to cp.  You gotta have a Trackball!!!!

[erictrumpet]

Just chiming in in favor of the trackball. Whatever ya gotta do, include a ball!
With all the money and effort going into an arcade machine project, you want to make it capable of playing as many games as possible!
For me personally, I am not a huge Golden Tee fan so the issue of not putting another control (joystick or whatever) behind the ball was not a problem for me. That helps if your CP design is getting too crowded...

Eric.

[releasedtruth]

Well, this eve I'll draft up an image with the accurate sizes on there and try to shoehorn one in there. I thought maybe a 2 1/4" would help a little, but I can't find a happ that's translucent. That's key for the design.

severdhed, how wide is your cutout for your trackball?

[Hoopz]

I thought maybe a 2 1/4" would help a little, but I can't find a happ that's translucent. That's key for the design.

You can find translucent pool balls instead of a trackball.  They are the same size/weight and work just as well.  I have on in my CP.

[releasedtruth]

Alright, I threw together a look at the CP. I don't think I can make it happen, despite my desire to the contrary. Just not enough real estate. I'd have seriously swiss cheesed wood. Even if the corners were cut off, it won't save much.

[Dreamwriter]

I hate to make this even more complicated, but I think a spinner would allow more games than a trackball.  Think of all the tons of racing games that are out there, not to mention breakout games, Tempest, Blasteroids, etc.  And spinners are a lot easier to fit in there.

[releasedtruth]

Spinner over a trackball eh? I hadn't even considered a spinner, and for racing games? Better than a steering wheel? I have to have racing games, that's imperative. I'd seen a bunch of 270 degree wheels, I figured that was how to go.

[pointdablame]

No, a spinner is not better than a wheel for racing games.  It does however make a great compromise for control panels that don't include (or have the room for) a real wheel.

[releasedtruth]

I definitely want a wheel, whether it clamps on, a dwarf holds it while I drive, whatever. I need to find the right wheel.  I'll research spinner games and see if it's worth the entry.