Author Topic: Another layout question (Read 2379 times)

Animeka · « **on:** July 26, 2006, 08:43:22 pm »

Ok guys... I've been asking in another thread about replacing my metal CP (as seen on http://www.animeka.net/mame.htm) with a multi-fonction

panel.

What do you guys think of this layout?

Post your ideas/suggestions/feedback!

DaveMMR · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2006, 08:50:33 pm »

Well ask yourself this one question: "Do you enjoy playing video games at a 45 degree angle to the TV?". If you answered "No", then you will hate your layout down the road. Facing the display straight on is always the best, and an angle is really only tolerated for those oddball 4-player games.

Secondly, I would avoid (running and screaming) 'mirroring' controls. Player 1 and 2's layout should always be absolutely, positively identical (joystick on left, same number of buttons) lest you be accused of giving yourself a handicap in SFII or similar simo-2p game.

However, I do like the rounded CP approach and you should definately keep that!

My advice: lay out your joysticks in the most comfortable manner, giving it priority, then work your other controls around it. Because, unless you're a 4-way game junkee, those joysticks get the most play out of any of those other controls.

Animeka · « **Reply #2 on:** July 26, 2006, 08:58:29 pm »

Awesome feedback.... Thing is, no matter how I arrange this, unless I don't center the trackball, I can't have the 2 8ways horizontal and set up in a non mirrored pattern....

Maybe I should go with a smaller trackball... Trade my 3" for a 2.25" ?

As for the shape of the panel, I'm planning on having a similar shaped bottom, with both parts grooved and put in a 1/8" plexi shaped like the panel in between. Either have a marquee type graphics in the panel, backlit, or a dark black plexi with LEDs or something...

DaveMMR · « **Reply #3 on:** July 26, 2006, 09:21:15 pm »

Thanks for the "awesome".

Well, first, can you make the circle a little bigger? Even a couple of inches might buy you precious space.

Secondly, I recently dropped the "seventh" button off my cp mockup to save room, and it might work for you too. Unless you're a big NeoGeo fan, it's completely not necessary (there was even a thread where some people admitted to using the coin drop as a select for SNES games). If this cab is only for playing Mame, you can safely omit a seventh button, because even using a top row button as "D" in NeoGeo will be fine.

A smaller trackball will probably save you an inch or so, but I'd make that a last resort option.

But try and avoid the mirroring. You're going to see a lot of cross-arm playing on that side if you do.

Animeka · « **Reply #4 on:** July 26, 2006, 10:01:24 pm »

Quote from: DaveMMR on July 26, 2006, 09:21:15 pm

Thanks for the "awesome".

Well, first, can you make the circle a little bigger? Even a couple of inches might buy you precious space.

Secondly, I recently dropped the "seventh" button off my cp mockup to save room, and it might work for you too. Unless you're a big NeoGeo fan, it's completely not necessary (there was even a thread where some people admitted to using the coin drop as a select for SNES games). If this cab is only for playing Mame, you can safely omit a seventh button, because even using a top row button as "D" in NeoGeo will be fine.

Make the circle bigger? The shape of the panel you mean? I don't want it to extend to far out... Based on your suggestions, my 10 year old son just suggested I put the 2 8 ways and buttons at the top of the panel, leave the tball where it is and put the 4 way, 3 cone buttons and spinner at the bottom. I'll try that tomorrow to see how that looks/feels... That would straighten the 8 way/buttons and return them to non-mirrored state. I'll post pics...

Marc

Animeka · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2006, 11:39:21 am »

Updated top message to reflect new layout...

davieboynj · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2006, 02:10:21 pm »

at the risk of destroying symmetry, i'd suggest you move the trackball over an inch or two to the left so it's more centered between the joysticks. your arms will thank you later. If you dig on karate champ you can add another 4 way on the right. also opens you up for some Namco Classics - great 2 player 4way games.

ahofle · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2006, 03:49:55 pm »

Quote from: Animeka on July 28, 2006, 11:39:21 am

Here it is... Is that better? Nothing is in the way when playing the 8ways although are further up on the panel than I would have liked...

What do you guys think?

Just my opinion, but those sticks look way too close to the monitor I think. Your face would be awfully close to the screen. Maybe you should try putting your mock CP on the cabinet and pretend to play a joystick game and see how it feels to you.

shardian · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2006, 03:56:18 pm »

I vote you bite the bullet and cut down the sides of the cab to expand the CP a few inches each way.

unclet · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2006, 04:13:16 pm »

Those joysticks seem a bit far back to my liking .... just my opinion. I would not want to feel like I am "reaching" out for the joysticks in order to play....

I attached a picture...... I would recommend enlarging the front curve a bit (see yellow lines). This will allow you to move your trackball down and joysticks a bit farther out to create space. It also allows the Player1 and Player2 forearms to rest on the front of the control panel a bit when playing. If you can not rest your wrist somewhat then they can become quite tired if you play for a long time.

You still have symmetry and the panel is not enlarged enough to really matter (in my opinion), so you can still get to the coin door underneath. also, you have room for some admin buttons (see purple buttons) such as Quit, Reset and Pause perhaps.

I would finally recommend placing CoinUp buttons on the vertical front of the control panel, not on the flat top and you might want to think about putting right and left pinball buttons on either side (now that you have the room) so you can play Visual Pinball and Future Pinball....... they are amazing.

PS: I only filled in the left side of the control panel to give you an idea of what it would look like ..... I wanted to leave the left side alone so you can see the yellow line I drew to get an idea of what I meant......

Animeka · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2006, 05:15:42 pm »

The cab already has pinball buttons on each side, and the P1/P2 are on the front of the cab, above the coin door.

The picture doesnt give it justice, it's not that big... 15" deep. I've tried to pretend play with it and it felt ok...

As for cutting the sides, I wont

I'm gonna do everything I can without cutting the cabinet frame.

The 8 way joysticks are about in the same location as the original panel so they are not too close to the glass.

Thanks for the feedback guys, I hope my "vision" for this is gonna work... Feel free to offer more suggestions/feedback. I'm not cutting the wood for another 2 weeks

Marc

johnperkins21 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2006, 05:40:35 pm »

I say go with unclet's suggestions. The only problem I see with that layout suggestion is that it will not be good for Golden Tee, but your original cp would have been even worse, so it's better. You need to really think about what games you will be playing most often and which controls are used for those games, then design your cp in a way that makes that most comfortable. Make a modular panel if you absolutely need to have all the controls. Your cab will not get much play if it's awkward and uncomfortable to use.

Animeka · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2006, 07:21:14 pm »

Quote from: unclet on July 28, 2006, 04:13:16 pm

Those joysticks seem a bit far back to my liking .... just my opinion. I would not want to feel like I am "reaching" out for the joysticks in order to play....

I attached a picture...... I would recommend enlarging the front curve a bit (see yellow lines). This will allow you to move your trackball down and joysticks a bit farther out to create space. It also allows the Player1 and Player2 forearms to rest on the front of the control panel a bit when playing. If you can not rest your wrist somewhat then they can become quite tired if you play for a long time.

You still have symmetry and the panel is not enlarged enough to really matter (in my opinion), so you can still get to the coin door underneath. also, you have room for some admin buttons (see purple buttons) such as Quit, Reset and Pause perhaps.

I would finally recommend placing CoinUp buttons on the vertical front of the control panel, not on the flat top and you might want to think about putting right and left pinball buttons on either side (now that you have the room) so you can play Visual Pinball and Future Pinball....... they are amazing.

PS: I only filled in the left side of the control panel to give you an idea of what it would look like ..... I wanted to leave the left side alone so you can see the yellow line I drew to get an idea of what I meant......

Actually, the picture you took to modify is the "old" one

There's an updated one I posted with a different layout. Do you like it better? I do like the idea of going outward a little bit but It wouldnt give me much extra space to justify all the routing necessary for that. Cosmetically it might be a good idea though..

Thanks!

Marc

Marc

gamecreature · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2006, 08:17:09 pm »

I kind of like UncleT's suggestion as well.

unclet · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2006, 08:37:42 pm »

No offense, but I do not really like your new design either .... I would think since the joysticks most likely would get used the most, then I would want them up front (instead of having to reach for them). I would not take up "prime control panel space" by placing a spinner up front. Also, if you place the spinner somewhat in the middle of the control panel then left and right handed players would be able to use it easier. Imagine if a left handed player wanted to use the spinner with the left hand and use a joystick with the right hand. Also, if you reach for the joysticks in the back, then people will tend to rest their forearms on the spinner and red joystick might get in the way of that.

Also, I thought I read that you wanted it curved.... oh well.....since curving the control panel is harder, then why not just make is a square but just round off the corners a bit..... I guess I figured since you knew how to curve the front section, then curving it a bit larger would not be a big deal. Anyway, my suggestion, was just that .... a suggestion.

** Let me state this again ..... my opinions have no bearing what-so-ever if the design fits your needs ..... it is just that you asked for opinions.... so I figure I would throw some your way.

Animeka · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2006, 11:38:13 pm »

Not offended at all.. My problem is with putting the 2 8ways in front, the player 2 joystick is always in the way for the trackball...

As for left handed player, I don't have any left handed friends, and I'm building this for me and my son mostly so

CP is narrow, and worked well for 2 8 ways as the original panel shows... I saw the Arcadeus panel and loved the design, 2 8 way setups, with a trackball in between, and the 4 way/spinner/buttons set at the top looks great. But I dont have the space for the trackball... Hmmm...

The layout I did works well by the way, the 4way and spinner arent in the way at all when playing... Since your forearms are sort of angled when playing, they fall in between...

I'll try moving the 8 ways down again

I'm running out of cardboard

Marc

unclet · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2006, 12:10:19 am »

Well it just seems like if you increase the depth of the control panel (like my picture) then the trackball can be moved to the front a bit more which will give you the space between your joysticks, so your forearm does not slam into the P2 joystick when spinning the trackball fast.

Anyway, if it suits your needs, then do not listen to me.

I just wanted you to realize that a lot of original arcade cabinets do not have joysticks that far back and neither do many of the cabinets which people make in this forum, although that does not mean it is wrong..... I am just throwing out ideas so you can make a final decision knowing everything prior to cutting anything

Animeka · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2006, 08:57:08 am »

Quote from: unclet on July 29, 2006, 12:10:19 am

Well it just seems like if you increase the depth of the control panel (like my picture) then the trackball can be moved to the front a bit more which will give you the space between your joysticks, so your forearm does not slam into the P2 joystick when spinning the trackball fast.

Anyway, if it suits your needs, then do not listen to me.

I just wanted you to realize that a lot of original arcade cabinets do not have joysticks that far back and neither do many of the cabinets which people make in this forum, although that does not mean it is wrong..... I am just throwing out ideas so you can make a final decision knowing everything prior to cutting anything

You don't need to defend your opinions

I embrace them with an open mind. That's why I posted here

My responses are mostly to explain why I took the paths I did...

It did look odd when I designed it, but after doing the mock up, it's very playable, and nothing's in the way... I would love to fit the tball between the 2 8 ways like most people do, but I'd have to compromise somewhere (cutting the cabinet=NO, larger panel=last resort)

Here's another template, based on suggestions from you

I widened the part that sticks out of the cabinet (by about 1" on each side) and I moved the 8 ways in front...

unclet · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2006, 09:32:09 am »

I am assuming the blue circle is still the spinner and not a fourth joystick ... right.

Anyway, the layout is better however, the reason why people put the trackball in front is so when they spin it hard then their hand does not slam into the monitor glass. I would "think" your trackball is too high to really spin. I understand two players might be playing at one time, but I would think that "most of the time" that one player will be playing on the cabinet. If you agree with this statement, then perhaps a compromise is to swap the trackball and P2 joystick. This will allow for the trackball to be up front and allow the P1 joystick to be positioned nearer the front (which is most common).

Check out the picture I attached

- I swapped trackball and P2 joystick

- I do not like admin buttons right in the middle, so moved those up top

- Added a couple of trackball (right\left mouse click) buttons to the right of the trackball so you can use the trackball like a mouse.

- Not sure I would recommend having 7 buttons for each joystick on such a small panel which also includes a trackball and spinner .... hwoever I left them on. You might want to think about going with straight 6 buttons on either side since this will save you move space .

- When P2 is using the joystick, then the forearm still has space to rest on the control panel without hitting anything.

- Not sure what the other two buttons were suppose to be, night I moved those up top as well...

- Added more space between the 4-way joystick and spinner

Animeka · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2006, 12:52:56 pm »

Quote from: unclet on July 29, 2006, 09:32:09 am

I am assuming the blue circle is still the spinner and not a fourth joystick ... right.

Anyway, the layout is better however, the reason why people put the trackball in front is so when they spin it hard then their hand does not slam into the monitor glass. I would "think" your trackball is too high to really spin. I understand two players might be playing at one time, but I would think that "most of the time" that one player will be playing on the cabinet. If you agree with this statement, then perhaps a compromise is to swap the trackball and P2 joystick. This will allow for the trackball to be up front and allow the P1 joystick to be positioned nearer the front (which is most common).

Check out the picture I attached

- I swapped trackball and P2 joystick

- I do not like admin buttons right in the middle, so moved those up top

- Added a couple of trackball (right\left mouse click) buttons to the right of the trackball so you can use the trackball like a mouse.

- Not sure I would recommend having 7 buttons for each joystick on such a small panel which also includes a trackball and spinner .... hwoever I left them on. You might want to think about going with straight 6 buttons on either side since this will save you move space .

- When P2 is using the joystick, then the forearm still has space to rest on the control panel without hitting anything.

- Not sure what the other two buttons were suppose to be, night I moved those up top as well...

- Added more space between the 4-way joystick and spinner

There are no admin buttons on the CP... The 3 atari cones are for the trackball (missile command).

The extra 2 buttons are for the 4 way config, seen a few panels like that... Jump/Fire or whatnot..

The blue stick is the spinner as you thought.

The 7 buttons set, you're right, I never really used the 7th, but I like having the neo geo pattern combined with the double rows for fighting games...

This thread might become very informative for people wanting to design panels

Sounds like we're coming up with all the pros and cons for everything eheheheh

Marc

P1 stick is in the way for the 4way in this layout I think

NightGod · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2006, 12:59:44 pm »

Wait, if I read that right, you are planning on using Atari cones as regular buttons? Not just as Player start buttons?

That seems really odd to me.

Animeka · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2006, 01:36:31 pm »

Quote from: NightGod on July 29, 2006, 12:59:44 pm

Wait, if I read that right, you are planning on using Atari cones as regular buttons? Not just as Player start buttons?

That seems really odd to me.

That's what was used for Missile Command on the original cabinet. Lighted ones for the P1/P2 and black non lighted ones for the 3 play buttons...

Marc

Animeka · « **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2006, 01:38:44 pm »

Here's the current layout I did, installed on the cabinet (it drooped a bit when I took the picture, hard to keep a cardboard panel steady

)

Comparing this panel to the current metal one i have, the 2 player configuration is in the same position, the trackball has plenty of space to spin.. The only thing is I'll move P1 about 1/2-1" to the right, it's too close to the wall of the cabinet.

Marc

RobotronNut · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2006, 02:13:04 pm »

have you tried two players side-by-side with your mock-up?
looks a little tight...

Animeka · « **Reply #24 on:** July 29, 2006, 02:24:43 pm »

Quote from: RobotronNut on July 29, 2006, 02:13:04 pm

have you tried two players side-by-side with your mock-up?
looks a little tight...

That's the same layout for 2 player that I have on the cabinet right now... plays shoulder to shoulder but plays fine.


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