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Author Topic: Stained oak with Vinyl side art  (Read 3111 times)

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Boz

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Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« on: June 28, 2006, 02:47:13 pm »
I've decided on 3/4, 10-ply oak plywood for the cabinet and rather than see the good wood go to waste with paint, I'm considering staining it. However, I still want to do side art and control panel art as if I were going to paint the whole thing as well.

Will my art stick after I stain/sand/stain/sand?
Do I have to do anything with the wood prior to sticking the art on?
Should I stain around the area intended for art?
What should I coat it with if I can get it to stick (so the edges don't come up)?

TIA

Link to my project

toe.

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2006, 06:05:33 pm »
are you going to put a few layers of clear down,
until everything is nice and smooth, before you
adhere your graphic?

 if so yes, the vinyl will stick.

if no.... well the vinyl will stick but it will look like
crap and wont last nearly as long.

beyond anything though be careful...
vinyl sticks best to itself

DrewKaree

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2006, 07:40:51 pm »

Will my art stick after I stain/sand/stain/sand?
Do I have to do anything with the wood prior to sticking the art on?
Should I stain around the area intended for art?
What should I coat it with if I can get it to stick (so the edges don't come up)?

TIA


No matter the type of material used for the artwork, until the pores of the wood are sealed, any adhesive will have limited sticking ability.  You can use this to your advantage though.

Stain the whole thing, don't skip the part where the art will go.  Inevitably, you'll end up with an area that's unstained, or it'll show on an edge somewhere, so just go ahead and stain the whole thing.

I'd have the artwork done on quality paper, no coating or anything.  Then, grab a can of 3M 45 (or 77) spray adhesive and spray the back of it.  After coating the whole backside (AND DO NOT DO THIS INSIDE THE HOUSE - GARAGE OR OUTSIDE ONLY!), stick your artwork where you want it.  It may help you to lay out points to match up prior to laying down the adhesive-covered artwork - once you touch the adhesive to the stained wood, you won't want to move it.

Do one side at a time.  After you've got the artwork laid out and stuck down, throw on a coat of poly, covering the artwork too.  This'll give you some protection to the artwork, and the adhesive should help keep the artwork from curling up due to the poly.  Worst case scenario is that you have to put a thumbtack on the edge of your artwork.  The thumbtack hole will be filled in with another coat of poly.

After the poly's all dry, your artwork won't be going anywhere, and you won't have to worry about the edges peeling up.  If you're nervous about putting too much poly on with that first coat, pick up a can of spray poly and use that for the first coat.  I'd recommend using a brush/wipe-on poly for all additional coats though.

Take your time and lay out more than a few coats of poly, and it'll look SWEET!
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Boz

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 05:33:34 pm »
Drew, I wish I could stick you in my PDA and call you up with all of my woodworking questions as they come up. Thanks so much for your input on this question. I also saw your post about bending wood that you posted for the Pacman cabinet front piece. I'll be utilizing your recommendations there for the front of my control panel.

I'll follow your instructions closely for the side art.

[note to self: vinyl sticky part + vinyl sticky part = another trip to the sign maker) - Thanks Toe.

toe.

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2006, 05:19:44 pm »
i spend all day playing with other people's graphics
and vinyl projects (cars and signs mostly).
many many horror stories.

as a side note... 3m makes a vinyl  for auto wraps that
is just short of idiot proof and very forgiving. bubbles
smooth right the hell out and it bounces back from
what seems like serious strecthing pretty easily making
it simple to get rid of wrinkles ( pull and lift :-) )

ill get a label for it, either tomorrow if i get called in or monday,
if you guys would like.
 

edit: its called controltac. once laminated
(its kind of thin by itself) the stuff is freakin' awesome.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2006, 09:17:34 am by toe. »

Boz

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2006, 11:35:10 pm »
ill get a label for it, either tomorrow if i get called in or monday,
if you guys would like.

That would be great, Thanks.

prOk

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2006, 11:27:27 pm »
Putting Poly over vinyl is not a good idea.. over time, the poly will not allow the vinyl to breathe and the vinyl will shrink where the poly will not, leading to cracks and vinyl peeling away.  Also, a stain is not a sealer.. it is however a lubricant of sorts that will eventually permeate the vinyl and discolor it..  make sure you put a coat of poly over the stain and then any vinyl over that.  If you're getting art printed, skip the paper route.. get it done on  adhesive vinyl to start with ( if it's inkjetted it'll be laminated with a protective layer anyway).

DrewKaree

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2006, 02:02:38 pm »

Putting Poly over vinyl is not a good idea



No matter the type of material used for the artwork, until the pores of the wood are sealed, any adhesive will have limited sticking ability.



I'd have the artwork done on quality paper, no coating or anything.


I'm gonna point out what I've said in order to clarify, as it seems even after re-reading it myself that I've suggested something else entirely. 

The first part of that quote references any adhesive's sticking ability to the straight stain, as was spoken of prior to my reply.  Wood has to be given some smooth finish that the adhesive can stick to (such as poly).  Failure to do this will show that the pores and ridges of UNFINISHED wood do not make a very good surface to stick anything to, along with the actual stain being something that's not all that easy to stick something to either. 

As for the rest of what I said, I continue to stand by it.  The poly over paper will give it the protection and finish to look good for years to come, and the ability to keep the edges from peeling up, or someone's kid with no concern for his cab to purposefully peel up the edges.  The poly will make it far harder to do, and will help the artwork to "blend" into the side, being covered by several coats of poly.  There may not even be a seam for anyone to feel (or pick at).

Anyone with an older cab that some knob in the arcade was picking at can vouch for the fact that people absentmindedly tear up stuff that they can get a fingernail at/under.  Mebbe they've got the need to do a quick manicure or whatever.  If it can't be covered with plexi (reasonably priced, anyhoo), such as a CP, I'd recommend the same thing every time.  Nicks and scratches happen to the artwork no matter how careful we are.  I'd ALWAYS rather have them happen to a poly layer than the actual artwork.  I can simply lightly sand and recoat the poly and it'll be as good as new, but I can't say the same about the artwork.  Some scratches may be deep enough that you can't do anything about it, but I know it can be much worse without the protection of a coat or seven of poly.

Varathane clear would be a nice choice (anything other than that labeled "clear" could color any white in the artwork, but they tend to primarily sell "clear", so it's not as commonly available in a big-box store)


If you're getting art printed, skip the paper route.. get it done on  adhesive vinyl to start with ( if it's inkjetted it'll be laminated with a protective layer anyway).


Not being sure of who the OP can/would go to for printing, or what you'd consider a "protective layer", but if you're referring to an actual lamination being done by the printer, it's certainly not done by every printer.  I know this because several others have brought this up, as well as my own experience, due to it being a separate/extra charge.  If you're referring to the paper itself as it comes through the printer, I'd be willing to wager that you'd not want some yokel spilling something on it because it's not truly something that could be considered a "protective layer" because it'd ruin the artwork.  Covering it with poly would allow you to run a friggen HOSE on the thing and not worry about ruining the artwork (everything else, however, now that's a different story ;) )
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Boz

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2006, 01:42:23 pm »
Drew,

I have another question about staining wood. First, I live in HELL (Phoenix, Arizona) where the temperatures can reach as high as 110. Even in the shade it can hover from 100 to 107. Now, I'm going to stain the cabinet outside, if for no other reason, the fumes. However, regardless of any progress I make on the cabinet, I'll be storing the whole thing inside at night (I don't have a garage).

Will the drastic change in temperatures from day-time to night-time have an effect on the staining as it's "drying"?

Should I consider leaving it outside 24x7 till the stain dries?

Thanks

DrewKaree

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2006, 06:07:48 pm »
Drew,

I have another question about staining wood. First, I live in HELL (Phoenix, Arizona) where the temperatures can reach as high as 110. Even in the shade it can hover from 100 to 107. Now, I'm going to stain the cabinet outside, if for no other reason, the fumes. However, regardless of any progress I make on the cabinet, I'll be storing the whole thing inside at night (I don't have a garage).

Will the drastic change in temperatures from day-time to night-time have an effect on the staining as it's "drying"?

Should I consider leaving it outside 24x7 till the stain dries?

Thanks

It'll experience more expansion and contraction than normal, that's for certain, since it's unfinished and unsealed at this time.  First, I'd consider using a gel stain.  You have more control over it during application and can get more consistent results.  You might experience a dry area when you're applying stain and end up with a nice line showing where the coats of stain were.  Do you have a carport?  If so, consider leaving it in there all the time or else do it inside the house with a box fan in the window.  The smell from the stain will dissipate pretty quickly and it'd be in a more consistent temperature range if you chose one or the other place to store and finish everything.  Some Oust will cut that smell down too (although it won't eliminate it entirely).  I dunno what's in that stuff, but Lysol and Fabreeze aren't as effective.  My wife can't stand the smell and always feels the need to spray something (even if it doesn't work) and I've noticed her sticking with the Oust and she's commented a few times on it when she doesn't have it about how much less effective it is than Oust.  It still won't entirely remove the smell, but that box fan will help out a bunch too.

I just had some relatives from Arizona in town this past weekend.  They said it will drop down to the 70's at night, is that true?  I can't even fathom how you guys live without air conditioning! ;D
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Boz

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2006, 08:11:03 pm »

I just had some relatives from Arizona in town this past weekend.  They said it will drop down to the 70's at night, is that true?  I can't even fathom how you guys live without air conditioning! ;D

I have lots of room on my back porch where I'm building the cab and it's got a large roof. Since I'm new to woodworking, I have only limited experience about how wood behaves. People here I've talked to say that you want to store the wood for any project in as close to an identical climate as the room where your furniture will eventually live. They say don't store it outside and don't store it in the sun. Up to this point, I've kept my 3 sheets in my living room since that's where my cabinet will live.

Won't building it and staining it outside in the heat effect the way the wood behaves when I finally get it inside? I have no idea how long it's going to take me to build.

Heat sucks... Grew up in the humidor that is Omaha, and ended up in the blow dryer down here. Dunno how that happened. During the really hot months the over-night temperature is around 85-90, but that only lasts about 3-4 months of the year (May-August). Since Arizona is at the --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules---end of the Rockie Mtn range, we have some elevation contours here. You can drive 1 hour north of me in Phoenix and the day-time temp can drop as much as 30 degrees in the middle of day -- in the middle of the summer(!). Phoenix, will actually freeze at night during the winter and "frost warnings" are common place from the local news -- desert landscaping doesn't do well with hyper-cold. Do your relatives remember the day we actually had SNOW in Phoenix?

As for the air conditioning, you'd be surprised how LITTLE one is actually in the heat down here. Frankly I'm amazed that anyone was able to live here BEFORE air conditioning. During the winters in Omaha, I can remember not wanting to go outside when it was *really* cold. The *exact* same thing happens here, but it's due to heat and is about 6 months offset.

(BTW, Nice "call" on the Defender Proto thread. Needed to be said.)

EDIT: Your relatives must not live in Phoenix if that's what they were saying about *this* time of year. The concrete jungle adds about 10 degrees.

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Re: Stained oak with Vinyl side art
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2006, 11:36:17 pm »
I dunno what city they live in (it's my wife's relatives, and the guy takes expert bullshitting to heights never before dreamed about ::) ) but I know they live near/on/around Lake Havasu (spelling?) because he can't shut his friggen piehole about his boat and his 4 trucks with mudders and  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:

Right around that point I've tuned him out.  His wife is interesting to talk to, so it makes me wonder how she stands him.  I think it's a relief for her to visit and have someone to talk to who isn't full of themselves :D

You SHOULD have your material stored in a consistent temperature (up here in WI, we have basements which tend to regulate the temps pretty well and are reasonably close, humidity-wise, to the rest of the house.  The problem you're gonna have is if you don't know how long it'll take you.  If you're gonna take a while (and trust me, real life has a way of sapping your progress-making ideas) you're not gonna want it outside all the time, but that's a trade-off you're gonna have to decide - whether you want to stain/finish it inside and keep everything pretty even, or if you think you won't get to it entirely and it'll be in and out of the house.

It's not something I'd want to do outside, and I wouldn't want to keep everything outside, but once you start, if you can't stand the smell or the hauling stuff in and out, do it ALL outside (but if I were you, I wouldn't do a darn thing outside).  It sounds as if your temps will be reasonably consistent during your summer months.  Re: behavior - if you do it all outside in the heat and low humidity, what'll prolly happen when it goes inside is the wood will swell.  How much is the magic question.  There is no way to give you a specific answer for that.  Doors stick and unstick themselves due to the wood swelling.  What'd it take for that, an eighth of an inch? 
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