Dual-axis games and mame configuration help requested

[unclet]

1) I read there were games in Mame which use a dual-axis (ie: two separate potentiometer input allow at the same time) gas/brake pedals.  This means you can press the brake and gas at the same time to create car spins, peeling out, etc..  

Will you name some of these games so I can ultimately test my new hardware for my Mame driving cabinet?

2) Also, if some of these dual-axis games use a steering wheel via potentiometer, then the input for these games in Mame would involve three potentiometers.   I was wondering how Mame is able to be configured for games which use 3 potentiometers (or more).  Lets say a game has a steering wheel, gas pedal and brake pedal, all of which are potentiometer hardware controlled and all which can be active at the same time.   In the "Input to this game" in the mame settings I notice there are "AD stick" settings.  I am assuming I would need to map "AD Stick X", "AD Stick Y", "AD Stick Y2" settings to my 3 potentiometers, but I do not know how.  I can obviously map keypresses to certain keyboard keys, but I am unaware of how to map potentiometer input (from my Microsoft Dual Strike gamepads).  

- Will someone please explain this?

3) I looked at the individual game settings for "HangOn" and noticed "AD Stick Y2" was listed twice.  

- Why are there two settings for the exact same input?

[1UP]

In the "Input to this game" in the mame settings I notice there are "AD stick" settings.  I am assuming I would need to map "AD Stick X", "AD Stick Y", "AD Stick Y2" settings to my 3 potentiometers, but I do not know how.  I can obviously map keypresses to certain keyboard keys, but I am unaware of how to map potentiometer input (from my Microsoft Dual Strike gamepads).

It's done the same way that you map buttons.  Move to a value to map, then hit enter and push the stick (or turn the pot) in the direction that you want to map to and release.  The mapping is then entered into the proper slot (J1 +Y etc...)  Pretty intuitive.

[unclet]

I never thought of doing that for pots since I always thought I had to push something to register a key.  Pretty darn easy.  Thanks again 1UP.

PS:  Do you know of any dual-axis games for me to test my hardware against?

[u_rebelscum]

1) I read there were games in Mame which use a dual-axis (ie: two separate potentiometer input allow at the same time) gas/brake pedals.  This means you can press the brake and gas at the same time to create car spins, peeling out, etc..  

Will you name some of these games so I can ultimately test my new hardware for my Mame driving cabinet?

Driving games by Aaron Giles often have two or three pedals (hard drivin', race drivin).  

*edit*
Longer list:

Hard Drivin' ( harddriv )
Race Drivin' ( racedriv )
Crusin' USA ( crusnusa )
Crusin' World ( crusnwld )
Off Road Challenge ( offroadc )
Lucky Wild ( luckywld )
Dirt Fox ( dirtfox )
Pole Position ( polepos )
Pole Positon II ( polepos2 )
F1 Exhaust Note ( f1en )
Rad Mobile ( radm )
Rad Rally ( radr )

A couple more game have them, the they're not working ATM.

3) I looked at the individual game settings for "HangOn" and noticed "AD Stick Y2" was listed twice.  

- Why are there two settings for the exact same input?

All analog inputs except "Pedal" list two right next to each other.  The first is for up (or left if X axis), the second for down (or right).  This is due to analog joysticks really operating per axis (X, Y) with pots, unlike digital joysticks operating per direction (up, down, left, right) with switches.  For compatablity reasons, mame lists two inputs per analog axis so keyboards, 8way, and dpads can be used.

[1UP]

All analog inputs except "Pedal" list two right next to each other.  The first is for up (or left if X axis), the second for down (or right).  This is due to analog joysticks really operating per axis (X, Y) with pots, unlike digital joysticks operating per direction (up, down, left, right) with switches.  For compatablity reasons, mame lists two inputs per analog axis so keyboards, 8way, and dpads can be used.

In other words, this has to do with positive and negative feedback on each axis, so you set the first AD Stick X by pushing left on your analog stick, set the other AD Stick X by pushing right, same for up/down etc.

[u_rebelscum]

All analog inputs except "Pedal" list two right next to each other.  The first is for up (or left if X axis), the second for down (or right).  This is due to analog joysticks really operating per axis (X, Y) with pots, unlike digital joysticks operating per direction (up, down, left, right) with switches.  For compatablity reasons, mame lists two inputs per analog axis so keyboards, 8way, and dpads can be used.

In other words, this has to do with positive and negative feedback on each axis, so you set the first AD Stick X by pushing left on your analog stick, set the other AD Stick X by pushing right, same for up/down etc.

Yes + & - directions on that axis (or to list in proper order, - & +).
If are using an analog stick, you don't need to set the second one, but it's good idea for user readablity to do both.  The second one is only looked at for digital inputs, but it does look funny to have the first one say "R or J2_UP" and the other just "F", even though J2_down will effect down also (if joystick 2 is analog).  Also, mame can read only one analog input axis per analog game axis; the rest of the inputs are treated as if they were digital inputs.  Analog and digital can have "unlimited" digital inputs per game port (axis, button, etc).

BTW, split dual axel games have the pedals listed as "Pedal", not "AD Stick Y".  Pedals are only half an axis to mame, so you can map J2_UP to "Pedal" [1], and J2_DOWN to "Pedal 2" and be fine.  (ie: one analog input axis to two game axes is okay, two analog linput axes to one game axis is not.)

[unclet]

1) Are all of the games you listed dual-axis games....meaning I can press the gas and brake at the same time and Mame will intepret them?  I did not think PolePosition was like this.....

2) I have 2 sets of gas/brake pedal assemblies.  I was going to wire one set to be a single-axis set (wired as shown in the "Wiring Single-Axis Throttle/Brake" diagram located at http://www.gunpowder.freeserve.co.uk/wheels/wiring.htm) which basically would just be seen as only one potentiometer.  The other gas/brake set I was going to wire for dual-axis games which would be seen as two separate potentiometers (one for gas and one for brake).   However, now that I understand I can map which potentiometer Mame should be using in a game, then it seems I might only need one gas/brake pedal assembly wired as two separate pots (one for gas and one for brake) and then simply map Mame accordingly.   Do you agree?   Maybe there is something special about single-axis games which I do not understand yet which makes the need for me to keep a single-axis set.  Anyway, just curious what you thought...I could always wire both sets up and find out eventually.  

UncleT

[1UP]

1) Are all of the games you listed dual-axis games....meaning I can press the gas and brake at the same time and Mame will intepret them?  I did not think PolePosition was like this.....

2) I have 2 sets of gas/brake pedal assemblies.  I was going to wire one set to be a single-axis set (wired as shown in the "Wiring Single-Axis Throttle/Brake" diagram located at http://www.gunpowder.freeserve.co.uk/wheels/wiring.htm) which basically would just be seen as only one potentiometer.  The other gas/brake set I was going to wire for dual-axis games which would be seen as two separate potentiometers (one for gas and one for brake).   However, now that I understand I can map which potentiometer Mame should be using in a game, then it seems I might only need one gas/brake pedal assembly wired as two separate pots (one for gas and one for brake) and then simply map Mame accordingly.   Do you agree?   Maybe there is something special about single-axis games which I do not understand yet which makes the need for me to keep a single-axis set.  Anyway, just curious what you thought...I could always wire both sets up and find out eventually.  

UncleT

I don't think single or dual axis matters.  Whatever is easiest for you.

[u_rebelscum]

1) Are all of the games you listed dual-axis games....meaning I can press the gas and brake at the same time and Mame will intepret them?  I did not think PolePosition was like this.....

Yes.  Umm, if that version/clone supports it.  All the games I listed have at least one version with at least dual axes (Hard/Race Drivin' have three).

2) I have 2 sets of gas/brake pedal assemblies.  I was going to wire one set to be a single-axis set (wired as shown in the "Wiring Single-Axis Throttle/Brake" diagram located at http://www.gunpowder.freeserve.co.uk/wheels/wiring.htm) which basically would just be seen as only one potentiometer.  The other gas/brake set I was going to wire for dual-axis games which would be seen as two separate potentiometers (one for gas and one for brake).   However, now that I understand I can map which potentiometer Mame should be using in a game, then it seems I might only need one gas/brake pedal assembly wired as two separate pots (one for gas and one for brake) and then simply map Mame accordingly.   Do you agree?   Maybe there is something special about single-axis games which I do not understand yet which makes the need for me to keep a single-axis set.  Anyway, just curious what you thought...I could always wire both sets up and find out eventually.

You can't do that for mame's single axis games.  [frown]

Mame's input is limited in that it can only have one analog input device assigned to each analog game axis.  So trying to assign dual axis pedals to the same game axis will not work (two analog input axes to one analog game axis).  Remember, single axis games use AD Stick as the input, and mame only looks at the first listed for which analog axis to read, the second is only for digital inputs.
There is a similar limit for retail PC games, so all retail dual axis pedal sets can switch (usually through the driver) between single and dual axis.

You can do the opposite, however: map a set of single-axis pedals to a dual axis game in mame.  (This is also common in retail PC games.)  But then you can't brake and gas at the same time.

Not sure of your setup, but you might look into having 3 pedals 3 2 1 left to right.  1 & 2 share an axis, so assign 1 as gas & 2 as brake in single-axis games.  3 is another axis, so assign 2 as gas and 3 as brake. ??

BTW, I've been thinking of trying to enable more than one input per axis to the analog side (mame already has this on the digital side), but....  Imagine having two analog joysticks mapped to term2 player 1 gun.  The first is a hacked real term2 gun for long episodes of playing with friends, but it's hard to lug the real thing onto and off of the computer desk.  So the second is a gamepad for quick play & testing.  
Now, what should happen if both guns are used at the same time?  Gun1 over-ride gun2 input?  Average the two guns inputs?  Should they be averaged even if one is pointed dead center (0,0 input, same as not used)?   How about a dual axis set on a single axis game? (ATM, averaging all the time is best for mapping a dual axis set of pedals to a single axis game in mame, but sucks $#%$ for term2 and other AD Stick and Lightgun games.)

[1UP]

You can do the opposite, however: map a set of single-axis pedals to a dual axis game in mame.  (This is also common in retail PC games.)  But then you can't brake and gas at the same time.

I keep wondering, why would you WANT to use the brake and gas at the same time?  Is this really an advantage in any of these games?  Even in the real world, you'd never do this, as you'd either stall the engine, or burn out the brakes....  

[Minwah]

So...if you had a single axis pedal setup, could the two pedals be used separately as 2 digital inputs (eg for OutRun)?

Are there any other disadvantages with using a single-axis system aside from the no brake+gas simultaneously thing (in MAME)?

I have just got a couple of analog pedals, and am wondering what to do myself.  I guess the best thing to do is wire up a switch to choose between single/dual axis.  My only concern is that this relies on you (or mates) knowing when to switch it for which game.

[unclet]

I have two separate sets of Virtua Racing gas/brake pedal assemblies (4 pedals total).  I did not want to use any switches to determine which pedals to use for which game.  I wanted my pedals to be active all the time, so based on which game I was playing, I would simply slide my chair in front of the correct pedal set and use them.  I plan on wiring one set up as single-axis (like referenced at the site http://www.gunpowder.freeserve.co.uk/wheels/wiring.htm) and other other set keep as two separate potentiometer inputs for dual-axis games.

I was told some driving games allow you to push the gas and brake at the same time to allow for spinning the tires, peeling out, make weird moves (I guess).   I read it somewhere so I thought I would simply wire one set of pedal assemblies up to allow for these games (I obviously have never played these types of games).  My idea was I want to get enough hardware on my driving control panel Mame cabinet extension so I would never have to add hardware for years.

[Minwah]

You still need to know which games are single/dual axis though in order to get your feet on the correct set of pedals.  I don't want to have 4 pedals on my cab since it is not primarily a driving cab, I think it would look too much.  (Plus pedals are quite hard to find).

I can't think of any MAME'd games that would make good use of pressing gas+brake at the same time.  Games I have tried this on seem to brake and override the throttle.  Anyone know of any?

[u_rebelscum]

You can do the opposite, however: map a set of single-axis pedals to a dual axis game in mame.  (This is also common in retail PC games.)  But then you can't brake and gas at the same time.

I keep wondering, why would you WANT to use the brake and gas at the same time?  Is this really an advantage in any of these games?  Even in the real world, you'd never do this, as you'd either stall the engine, or burn out the brakes....  

Real life, you'd do this to keep the engine RPMs at the sweet point even while slowing down (probably for a corner), but not slowing enough to down shift.  Or to set up "power slides" around corners.  (You see these all the time on TV car comercials.)  You'd only do this while racing, so maybe not real real life.  And, yes, you'd burn out the brakes pretty quick, as well as the transmission.

But you're playing racing games, so you should be able to do real racing moves, if the racing game has good racing simulation.

You still need to know which games are single/dual axis though in order to get your feet on the correct set of pedals.

I can't think of any MAME'd games that would make good use of pressing gas+brake at the same time.  Games I have tried this on seem to brake and override the throttle.  Anyone know of any?

See my list posted above for mame games that are set up to be able to take dual pedals.  Hard/Race Drivin' and (unmamed) SF Rush games correctly use dual pedals in the game, the Crusin' games might.  Not sure about the others on the list.

So...if you had a single axis pedal setup, could the two pedals be used separately as 2 digital inputs (eg for OutRun)?

Yes.

Are there any other disadvantages with using a single-axis system aside from the no brake+gas simultaneously thing (in MAME)?

No.

[Minwah]

Great, thanks U_Rebel  I just took apart one of my rusty old pedals for a rub down and spray (sandpaper & paint I mean!)