Suzo Inductive Joystick Switchable 4/8 way mod

[Level42]

Finaly found some time to try out a VERY old idea:

The Suzo Inductive Joystick has a potmeter that you can adjust to get 4 way or 8 way settings. Why they ever used a potmeter for that, I don't know really.
However, as soon as I bought one, I realised it should be possible to make this switchable, which would of course be perfect for a Mame cab.

The solution is so very simple, you can hardly call it a mod....but here goes:

First: if you try this on your Inductive, it's your risk (as always), no guarantee it works, you may damage your joystick, your cab or even your wife.....that is, if you're really uncareful 

You need:
1) Suzo Inductive Joystick (DUH!) Get them while they last at www.tntamusements.com !
2) solder and soldering iron
3) some wire
4) a switch open/close (not a momentary switch of course)

Steps:
1) adjust the potmeter so that it works perfect in 4 way only. Turn anti-clockwise to move to the 4 way position, clockwise to the 8-way position. I found that 1/4 from the 4-way position works good for me.
To try this out, start a game like 1942 or Burning Rubber, and check you can NOT make diagonals. Run Pac Man, or DK to check if it plays OK in 4 way.

2) open up your joystick by pushing in the sides of the cover. Remove the PCB by lifting it carefully near the connector first, then on the other side. See picture 1, this is the 4/8 way potmeter. (NOTE: THE SETTING OF THE POTMETER IS WRONG, IT SHOULD BE AROUND 1/4 FROM THE LEFTMOST POSITION !)
Turn over the PCB
3) Find the soldering islands of the potmeter, they are in a triangle shape. You can see that two connections are already shorted by a track on the PCB.
4) Now solder the two wires on the positions as shown on pic 3. Please note that my PCB/soldering looks pretty messy, this is because I had been experimenting with two potmeters first. If the solderings of the islands will not melt(flow), try adding a tiny bit of new solder, this will make the old solderings melt (flow) much easier.
5) On the other ends of the wire you solder the switch. It doesn't really matter what position, you will find out what is what soon enough.
NOTE: There's no switch in my pictures because......I didn't have a switch around (at least I couldn't find one).....so I closed/opened the wires as needed
6) Fire up 1942 or Burning Rubber. Try diagonals. If they work, the switch is in 8 position (that is shorting the potmeter). If not, it's in 4 way position (open).

Of course, if you have a 2x double pole switch, you can do fancy stuff like LED indication of 4 or 8 way position. Or you can switch two sticks at once.

It would be even better to replace the switch by a relay, and some software that knows if a game is 4 (or less) or 8 way, so that it can put out some signal to do the selection automaticaly. Who is willing to program this ?

For now, you'll need a switch. Of course, you should put this switch in a concenient place on (or below) your CP.

Please let me know your results !


Where should I put this on the WIKI ?


Next step: The Q-bert Inductive hack !

[ChadTower]

It would probably be better to find the two optimal resistance levels for each of 4/8 way operation, replace the pot entirely with a pair of appropriate resistors, and switch between the two of those.  That way you're not just shorting the pot to accomplish this.

It actually probably wouldn't be all that hard to have a build of MAME that sends out a serial signal based on the 4/8 way value of a given game and have a small controller that relays to 4 or 8 way accordingly.

[Level42]

That's exactly what I did BEFORE finding this solution. I piggy backed two pots, apart from the one pin giving the resitance value. I wired those up to something that would have a siwtch to select either pot. But then I found that the pot value for 8 way was about 2 Ohms. That's VERY close to shorting it. So I figured the two pot version was completely overkill.

I will do some more test runs, but it works fine so far.

I think Powermame may be the key to the software switching solution. Powermame already is able to select automaticaly the correct modes for a 49 way stick, so a "simple" 4/8 way switch should be easy. I already made a thread to ask about this in the Powermame section.

[ChadTower]

You wouldn't need two pots, just two appropriate resistors.  A pot is just a variable resistor.

[Level42]

Yeah, I'm an electronics service engineer, I know what a pot is  .

Since this was a first try, I figured I would do the two pot hack because this way you would still be able to adjust both the 4 or 8 way settings. Once you find the "ideal" values, you can of course replace the pots with a fixed value resistor. However, finding the right values could be a bit hard, the pot is 100 Ohms max. You'd need to get E-value resistor as close to the pot value as possible. You might even need to combine resistors to get the right value.

But again, all this is not neccesary IMHO.  "Shorting out" the potmeter is nothing else then when you turn the pot all the way to the 8 way side. There's nothing dangerous or wrong about it.

[ChadTower]

Wouldn't that depend on the min value of the pot?  I read "shorting the pot" as bridging it to 0 ohms.  If that is the case, and the min value is (for example) 5 ohms, you are not setting it to min resistance and could actually damage whatever is down the circuit from it.

[Level42]

Mmm, well I measured a couple of pots I have around here. F.i. a 100 K Ohm pot has a value of about 50 Ohms when turned fully to one side. Compared to the 100K max that is relatively close to 0 Ohms. (100.000 to 50).

In theory, every pot should be able to go to 0 ohms. But physical restrictions (especialy on th e rather cheap carbon types we are discussing now) prevent this to be real, and it's also not really that important in pratical applications.

Since the 4/8 way pot in the Inductive is only 100 Ohms, the fully turned value is very close to a real 0. I measured 2 ohms. If the connected electronics can handle a 2 Ohms resistance, it can also handle 0 ohms.

See: http://sound.westhost.com/pots.htm for more info

If you are REALLY worried about it, why not find a 2 Ohm resistor (good luck !) and solder it in series with one of the connected wires. 

[lustreking]

Get them while they last at www.tntamusements.com !

I emailed Todd from TNT last week and he said they only have 20 left...  make that 19...  I bought another one so I have a pair

-S

[Level42]

Damn. And Suzo Headquarters here in Holland has only about 25 left, but those are the 32 mm handle version, only suitable for cocktails IMHO.

I think I'm gonna order an extra set...for.......I don't know what for....maybe my new vertical only cab, or or or my vector cab or or....just for keeps !

[Grasshopper]

Personally I would still use two pots selectable with a toggle switch as this gives you more flexibility. Not all 8 way joysticks are the same. Depending upon the game, you might want an 8 way joystick that is either biased towards or against the diagonals. Pots are very cheap compared to the overall cost of the joystick so I can't really see any downside to this approach.

[Level42]

There isn't a downside apart from it being (a little) more complicated to realise. You would need to bring the pot to the underside of your CP and make a knob on the other side to be able to control it without opening the stick. But this all is also true for the switch.
And it's all very do-able of course.

I don't really see how 8 way joysticks differ from eachother. If you would use a "normal" 8 way stick, you also always have the same feeling. What games are you talking about ? I've tried several 8 way games now and they work like a dream....

At least I think I'm the first one who actualy has got this working, instead of just talking about it...

[Grasshopper]

I don't really see how 8 way joysticks differ from eachother. If you would use a "normal" 8 way stick, you also always have the same feeling. What games are you talking about ? I've tried several 8 way games now and they work like a dream....

If you look at the joystick reviews on the Retroblast site you'll see that some 8 way sticks favour the diagonals more than others. This issue often comes up in the Happ Super vs Competition threads.

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/joysticks/Joystick%20Roundup.pdf

At least I think I'm the first one who actualy has got this working, instead of just talking about it...

Unfortunately, for some of us, progress is hampered by a tedious thing called "real life". 

[Level42]

OK, I see. I'm fine with the set-up I found and it works perfect for me in all the 8-way games I've tried (and I've tried quite a few by now).
I hope I've helped (or even inspired) some other people who may want to do this as well with the info I gave in my first posting, what everyone does with it is their choice. The solution I found is the simplest you can think of. And works fine.

Why didn't Retroblast ever test the Suzo Inductives by the way ? I think they deserve it (not that it will change my opinion) because they're special enough. And the fact that they are no longer produced is not a reason not to test them, the Williams is also out of production.

As mentioned, it took me about half a year before I could find a couple of hours to experiment with this, so I know about real life 

Next step is that I want to let a relay do the work instead of a switch. There are a couple of advantages when you use a relay:
1) I want to use a momentary (regular arcade button) to switch between 4 and 8 way. This is possible to realise with a relay.
2) because of the multiple relay contacts it's possible to switch over both sticks at the same time
3) also because of the multiple contacts it's possible to make a LED indication for what mode is chosen. Maybe it would be nice to use an Electric ICE button and a two colour LED to indicate the mode.
4) when (and if) there will be a solution to automaticaly switch per software, it's easy to change over to that.

As soon as I find some more spare hours.....I'll build it and let you all know

[bishmasterb]

If I'm understanding this correctly, the pot can be adjusted to increase or decrease the size of the diagnals, essentially letting you create your own restrictor plate.

How about mounting the pot on the control panel with a knob that lets you set it during play? 4-way games like Pac Man get set all the way to one side, 8-way games all the way to the other. Games that are in between (Tron) could be custom set to somewhere in the middle.

[Level42]

Well, I haven't found out the differences between settings around the 8 way position. But I haven't tried it a lot I must admit. But of course, what you say can be done too (I already suggested that earlier on this forum).

You can't use the original pot however, since it's a "trimmer" type, that is normaly set with a small screwdriver. You need to find a 100 Ohm pot that can be mounted on a panel and a knob of course.Then wire it to the joystick as the original pot was. Very simple.

As I said, the full 8 way (=shorting, around 0 Ohm resistance) works fine in the 8 way games. However, the full 4 way setting is making it almost impossible to hit any direction at all. This setting simply can't be used in the real world. But you could find a good setting for 4 way and make a marking near the nob to indicate it.

I chose the switch variant because I hope there will be an automatic software solution in the future.

[TOK]

I have a set of these too, that I'm going to be using in a vertical shooter cab. Since there are also some good vertical 4 way games like Donkey Kong, I was interested in your project. I haven't even tried the Suzo's yet, but the thing that doesn't impress me with the "soft" switching between 4/8 way is that it does nothing to make the stick feel like a physically restricted 4 way.
 
The Happ sticks in my current cabinet are not easily switchable between the two modes since its an actual plastic restrictor, but when it is switched it feels like a different stick. Since I play mostly 8 way games, I just got used to using them in 8 way mode for 4 way games. I'm inclined to think I'd do the same with the Suzo's. I even bought a set of T-Stick +'s to have the ability to switch to a phsyical restrictor without a lot of hassle, but didn't care for the stiffness or short throws of the sticks.

A hybrid mechanical of the Happ Competition and the T Stick +'s external physical shifting would be ideal to me.

[Level42]

I have a set of these too, that I'm going to be using in a vertical shooter cab. Since there are also some good vertical 4 way games like Donkey Kong, I was interested in your project. I haven't even tried the Suzo's yet, but the thing that doesn't impress me with the "soft" switching between 4/8 way is that it does nothing to make the stick feel like a physically restricted 4 way.

Mmm, well that's not due to my 'project' but due to the way the stick is, isn't it ? Say, you put this stick in a Ms.Pac Man cab, then you'd have to turn the potmeter  to a true 4 way setting. But indeed, there will never be a mechanical restriction this way. That's what you have to accept. It's always a compromise. A compromise I can live with.  If you play a game, I rarely hit diagonals on a 4 way game, just because it's not the nature of the game to do it. But it does happen every once in a while (tired/beer), so it's nice that when you DO hit a diagonal, the stick is not sending that to your I-pac, or whatever you use to interface it.

Actualy, I've used these sticks for quite some time in a pot setting where I was pretty well able to play both 4 AND 8 way games. Not perfect, but it was playable. I only wanted to make that extra step of NOT having Ms.Pac Man doing something I didn't intend here to do (move the wrong direction that is....). And I've reached that goal.

To let 4-way games play and feel like the original, you need a dedicated 4 way stick. I don't have the room on that on my (furture) CP so I will live with this. Or you need something like the Omni-stik Prodigy http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=195

but I personaly don't like a microswitch stick (even though it's a Suzo) and I don't like the look of it either.....

[TOK]

Level42... I didn't mean to infer it was a shortcoming of your project, just a shortcoming of a "soft" 4/8 way switch with no mechanical restrictor. I'll try the Suzo's on some 4 way games when I get a chance, and if they feel that much better than 8 way, I'll definitely try your mod.

[Grasshopper]

Damn. And Suzo Headquarters here in Holland has only about 25 left, but those are the 32 mm handle version, only suitable for cocktails IMHO.

I think I'm gonna order an extra set...for.......I don't know what for....maybe my new vertical only cab, or or or my vector cab or or....just for keeps !

If you do buy some more from TNT Amusements make sure you ask for them to be posted by letter post. By default Todd uses parcel post which for some reason is more expensive. I only paid $18 to have three shipped to the UK.

[Level42]

Thanks Grashopper,

I previously ordered one with them and it cost me $14,- to get it here, so that sounds like about the same when you add two more. It's memorial day in the US now, so I will get my answer tomorrow. Thanks for the heads-up ! Even with the postage that single one was still cheaper then the one (very last one on stock) I got "around the corner" directly from Suzo !

[specfire]

I plan on replacing the pot with a full sized one and making it accessible from the control panel.  When I get to it, I will take angular measurements of the diagonal range for different settings of the pot. 

I would like to achieve the following different 8-way settings:

1. Really wide angle diagonals for: Q-Bert (since movement is only activated on diagonals)
2. Moderately wide angle diagonals for: Fighters (for games that used a HAPP competition)
2. 45 degree angles for: Robotron and most all other 8-way games
3. Narrow angle diagonals for: TRON (to get as close as possible to the original stick)

I think I will likely skip #2 (Moderately wide angles) as it is probably unnecessary.  I hate fighters anyway so it would only be for the occasional guest who might like fighters.

My 2 cents,

spec

PS:  My thanks again to Level42 for pointing me to TNT Amusements and kudos on a cool mod.

[Level42]

Hey Specfire, thanks and you're welcome

Let us know your findings ! I never played one of the original cabs you mentions, so I can't say if a certain setting would be more or less like the original feel. If you play with two players often, get a "stereo"/double pot so both sticks have the same setting.

Fighters are not my favorite as well, although I like Soul Calibur on the DC.

[JCL]

Cool, someone did the mod I suggested. I never got around to it. My CP top is a friction fit so I just pull it off and turn the pot.

I wouldn't worry about the nay-sayers. Especially those who don't even have the stick. It seems to work fine for me when turned all the way to 8-way (pot shorted).