New Product: Ultimarc UltraStik 360 Analog/Digital Mappable Joystick

[saint]

A rubber spider add-on for Sinistar would make me drool...

Anyone else agree about the  Sinistar X?  Make your voices heard...

[Chris]

If I may take the unpopular side for a moment... I am a big believer in constructive criticism.  I live for it on my jukebox.  But is his product announcement thread really the place for it? 

Actually, if you go back in time, you'll see that the discussion about potential problems and/or upgrades started in a different thread, but were MOVED INTO this thread by a moderator who, I'm sure, meant well. 

Ah, that makes sense.  Wouldn't have been my choice, but if Andy and the mods are happy then all is well.

[destructor]

I'm interesting how Ultrastick will operate in game Food Fight (MAME) when will be connected directly by USB.
I know that connected by I-PAC (as every joystick connected by I-PAC, because I-PAC is keyboard) operate wrong. When you fast change direction left-right-left-right-..... our hero veeeeery slooooow change face direction from left to right and right to left.
When I connect stick (every) to PCB from PC joypad our hero very fast (immediately) change direction left-right-left ....

[nostrebor]

A rubber spider add-on for Sinistar would make me drool...

Anyone else agree about the  Sinistar X?  Make your voices heard...

Me too.

Why, oh why, did I buy all those williams 49-ways...

Darn crystal ball! WORK BETTER!!

[WaRpEd]

 
droooll! ( uses large towel)
Gotta have one will order ASAP
I love ultimarc!

[Tiger-Heli]

N0. You can revert to analog via USB by downloading an all-analog map. But once this is done, the directional (I-PAC) interface will also be receiving the same map, ie no directions will be sent as it's an analog map, until you again download a digital map.
The option to "force analog via USB" will be added in the next software version. The stick firmware already supports this function.

Okay - I saw the all-analog map, but wasn't sure why you would use it?

Question/Suggestion - For digital modes, the stick superimposes a 9x9 grid on the analog map and converts the resulting values to a digital output.

For analog games (Star Wars, PC games, 270 driving games), I would think you would want true 256x256 resolution and superimposing a 9x9 grid and using those values would make the operation "choppy" (Jumpy) at best.

Are you saying the stick starts in 256x256 via USB, but then when you select a map the stick reverts to 9x9 and then your only analog option is back to 9x9 analog.  If so, I think it would be good to add a "no mapping" option in which case the stick reverts to 256x256 mode.

Unless the stick works fine in 9x9 analog mode, or the 9x9 map really takes true analog values, so you are getting 256x256 resolution, or there is something else I am totally missing (which is very possible.)

***

And I still think that you would have to download some map for 4-way games for the stick to behave properly (assuming the default Ultra-Stik to I-PAC map is 8-way), correct?

***

To Chris and others: I wouldn't hold off buying one b/c of the comments in this thread.  As others have already stated, the "improvements/tech questions" thread was originally separated and merged into here.  Also, I would be much more highly motivated by positive or negative comments by early adopters than speculative comments from the peanut gallery (me).

[Grasshopper]

I had one of those d'oh moments over the weekend. I was thinking about how map switching could be implemented without using Windows and realised there is a very simple alternative. You could simply make more than one map available simultaneously and there are several ways to achieve this.

USB HID devices are allowed to have more than two analogue axes so one approach would be to simply increase the number of axes seen by Windows. For example supposing you had created two maps, one for 8 way games and one 4 way games. You could arrange for Windows to see the joystick as a HID device with 4 axes. The first axis would represent the x coordinate of the 8 way map, the second the y coordinate of the 8 way map, the third the x coordinate of the 4 way map, and the fourth the y coordinate of the 4 way map.

The only downside I can think of is that adding extra axes in this way could have an adverse impact on performance.

Another alternative, which I actually prefer, would be to keep the analogue axes purely for analogue applications and have the digital directions represented by button presses. There would be no danger of running out of buttons as the number of buttons that an HID controller is allowed to have is practically unlimited. So for example if "up" was registered on map 1 then the UltraStik would tell Windows that button 1 of the controller has been pressed. If "down" was registered then Windows would be told that button 2 had been pressed. If "left" was registered then Windows would be told that button 3 had been pressed etc. There would be 4 (or perhaps more) buttons associated with each map. So if "up" was registered on map 2 then the UltraStik would tell Windows that button 5 of the controller has been pressed and so on for all the maps defined.

Then for each MAME game you would simply select the appropriate buttons (or axes) for up, down, left and right representing the type of joystick you wanted.

Unfortunately, extending this approach to the Ipac mode could be a bit tricky. If you wanted two maps to be available then you could I suppose have 8 outputs going to the Ipac, the first four being for map 1, and the remainder for map 2. The problem is that you'd then be using up to 8 Ipac inputs per joystick which is too many for most applications. However, MAME's button handling algorithm is fairly sophisticated and with a bit of care you can get a 4/8 way switchable joystick using only 5 outputs. This can be achieve by combining a standard 8 way map and a simplified 4 way map that only registers one direction. I've attached a diagram to show how this might work.

You would then define MAME's ini file as follows:

8-Way Mode

P1_JOYSTICK_UP "KEYCODE_U"
P1_JOYSTICK_DOWN "KEYCODE_D"
P1_JOYSTICK_LEFT "KEYCODE_L"
P1_JOYSTICK_RIGHT "KEYCODE_R"

4-Way Mode

P1_JOYSTICK_UP "KEYCODE_U ! KEYCODE_N"
P1_JOYSTICK_DOWN "KEYCODE_D ! KEYCODE_N"
P1_JOYSTICK_LEFT "KEYCODE_L KEYCODE_N"
P1_JOYSTICK_RIGHT "KEYCODE_R KEYCODE_N"

Of course, it would be even better if the joystick had the option of being connected to a ps/2 port and acting as a ps/2 keyboard as you could then simply connect the joystick to the Ipac's keyboard pass-through socket and have as many unique types of keypress as you wanted.

Also, you could perhaps go one step further and get rid of the idea of multiple maps altogether. Instead you could have just one super map that did everything. On this map you could define multiple overlapping regions each representing a different button press.

Standard disclaimer for Christian: These are just some ideas that I'm putting out for discussion. It should not be assumed that I am in any way criticising the current implementation of the UltraStik.

[Grasshopper]

Setting the angles, increasing or decreasing the deadzone size, changing the shape of the deadzone, or doing crazy things like making curvy lines or difference angles between left/upleft than for right/upright would be nice.  Are they needed?  Do they make that much of a difference than a 9x9 grid?  Are they possible to be assigned from the computer on hardware fast enough to do the calculations while cheap enough for retail?

In talking to Andy a little while ago, he mentioned that using angles instead of a grid would be much more computation intensive than possible for the hardware used.
Andy is that still true?

Well there are a number of mathematical tricks you can use to make the calculations far less computationally intensive. It's definitely doable. But I agree this approach would still require the processor to work harder than a simple look up table.

The thing is though, there is no need for the angular calculations to be done in real time. I was thinking you could simply get the configuration program to pre-generate the map for you based on the three parameters I mentioned earlier in the thread. This would enable very high resolution maps to be created far more easily than having to draw each pixel individually.

[Minwah]

Couple of random points which I don't think have been mentioned...

Firstly, a major reason to use the IPAC output (as far as I can tell) would be to use the joysticks along with the IPAC console converters.  The only question this leads me to wonder is whether the stick must be programmed with an 8-way map via USB prior to using with the console...I assume this is the case.

Secondly, someone mentioned about having maps for each individual game.  This would not be neccessary when using many FE's.  For example, with Mamewah you would run the Ultramap software prior to the emulator, passing the control type as a UGC filename for the app to open.  ie with the latest beta Mmewah, it would look something like this:

pre_emulator_app_commandlines c:\ultramap\ultramap.exe "c:\ultramap\maps\[input].ugc"

This would just require that you make UGC files for each of Mame's control type's (well, the one's you would use a joystick for).  Of course some games will need individual treatment, but this should suffice for a good many.

[2600]

Couple of random points which I don't think have been mentioned...

Firstly, a major reason to use the IPAC output (as far as I can tell) would be to use the joysticks along with the IPAC console converters.  The only question this leads me to wonder is whether the stick must be programmed with an 8-way map via USB prior to using with the console...I assume this is the case.

I think another major reason may be the problem when using or enabling joysticks and a trackball at the same time. i.e. snake pit or just someone lazy with their cfg's.

[AndyWarne]

Are you saying the stick starts in 256x256 via USB, but then when you select a map the stick reverts to 9x9

No. Any cells in the grid which are assigned as analog are "transparent" to the 256 X 256 resolution. So if all cells are assigned as analog you get 256X256 across the board.
You could combine analog and digital, for example define a grid of analog with a 4X4 square of digital defined as "center" in the center. This would give a dead zone. I am not sure if there are any uses of a mixed analog/digital grid with the digitals defined as directions but you never know...
Andy

[u_rebelscum]

Okay - I saw the all-analog map, but wasn't sure why you would use it?
...
Are you saying the stick starts in 256x256 via USB, but then when you select a map the stick reverts to 9x9 and then your only analog option is back to 9x9 analog.  If so, I think it would be good to add a "no mapping" option in which case the stick reverts to 256x256 mode.

No, when a square is mapped to analog, it outputs the full analog range for that square.  So it's like your suggested "no mapping", except that the original "no mapping" has digital for i-pac and analog for USB.

-edit- Andy beat me to it. 

Addition due to Andy's comments: I've used just the center square as center for a small deadzone, but lets me have joystick & mice enabled at the same time.  Also, the corners can be hard to hit, so maybe the far corners can be set to the diagonals to help get the far corners.

[1UP]

A rubber spider add-on for Sinistar would make me drool...

Not that I'm going to make one...but it seems some enterprising individual could make a Sinistar spider that would go on TOP of the stick (using the mounting plate holes) that would be pretty much universal to any stick, including anything Happ or Ultimarc makes--analog or digital.  There might need to be different center inserts to make it work, but very doable.

However, I'm not that confident something like that would be a hot seller, which I'm sure is why it doesn't exist.  It's a very scecialized item that needs either a dedicated stick or manual installation every time, which kind of minimizes its appeal.

But as for the Ultrastick, I can't wait to get my hands on one!  I liked the GP49way combo, but the ability to go full analog is flippin SWEET!  The only question is if this can be adapted to Tron usage...heheh...

[Minwah]

I think another major reason may be the problem when using or enabling joysticks and a trackball at the same time. i.e. snake pit

I don't think this is a problem as long as the old 'joystick' and 'mouse' settings are used as opposed to the 'device_' settings...at least that's how I ended up setting it up.

[Tiger-Heli]

The only question is if this can be adapted to Tron usage...heheh...

I don't see why not - in fact you could have custom maps to do so  - one user might prefer the standard 4-way map with only the the one extreme point in each corner of the 9x9 grid mapped to diagonals, another might prefer 4 of the squares in each corner, another 9 of the squares.

Can anyone comment on the throw and return to center of these compared to more common sticks?

My personal feeling is this won't be the BEST stick for ANY game, but it may be the BEST stick so far for ALL games.  In other words (assuming a throw similar to a J-Stick), unless my idea of variable restictors and auto-scaling is workable, best you can hope for is a throw that is a little short for analog games (but playable), a little long for 4-way games (but playable), and about right for 8-way games.  From what I have read, the standard J-Stick should be pretty close to this, and given that probably 70% of MAME is 8-way, 20% is 4-way, and 10% is analog, that's probably a good option.  (No real research on those figures).

[Minwah]

best you can hope for is a throw that is a little short for analog games (but playable)

Just thinking....I don't recall what the hall-effect sticks are like exactly throw-wise, but I get the impression the throw is not extremely long.  If this is the case then the only analog games which might 'suffer' are the trigger stick ones (Afterburner, Space Harrier etc).  However as trigger sticks and long throw goes hand in hand, I think it will not actually matter even if the throw is a little short as it is not directly comparably to a trigger stick.

Also worth remembering that a bunch of analog games which people will want to play with this stick (eg Paperboy, Star Wars etc) did not even use a stick originally, but rather more tailor made controllers.  So authenticity is not the real issue here, as long as the games' playability doesn't suffer too much.

Can't wait to try one so I know for sure!

[1UP]

The only question is if this can be adapted to Tron usage...heheh...

I don't see why not - in fact you could have custom maps to do so  - one user might prefer the standard 4-way map with only the the one extreme point in each corner of the 9x9 grid mapped to diagonals, another might prefer 4 of the squares in each corner, another 9 of the squares.

The mapping is icing on the cake, I was wondering more about whether this can be physically adapted to use a Tron stick handle, the fact that it is spring-based makes that a little more difficult.  The grommet-based 49-ways were very easy to adapt, so I might have to look at doing a hybrid when I get ready for production again.

[Kremmit]

re:  Atari logo Hall-effect sticks: 

All in all, the feel is similar to an Atari logo digital sticks, what with the same pivot ball construction and same height handle.  I think the restriction was opened up a little for a longer throw, but otherwise, mechanically speaking, they're pretty much the same.  That puts the throw shorter than a Happ analog, and way shorter than an Afterburner.

[Minwah]

All in all, the feel is similar to an Atari logo digital sticks, what with the same pivot ball construction and same height handle.  I think the restriction was opened up a little for a longer throw, but otherwise, mechanically speaking, they're pretty much the same.  That puts the throw shorter than a Happ analog, and way shorter than an Afterburner.

EPROM, Road Runner & I-Robot etc. should play very well with this new stick then 

[u_rebelscum]

My first impressions on throw:

Term2: a lot better without restrictor.
Digital games (Magic Drop 3, Strikers 1945): a lot better with restrictor.

I can't compare to happs analog, but the full non-restricted throw's chord is approx 1 to 1 1/8 inches (short handle, ball stick, top of stick, without ball attached 'cause much easier to measure).

The restrictors basically cut that in half, to approx 1/2" with circle restrictor, same method as above.

I say 1" to 1 1/8" because the end of the non-restricted throw is "soft", not well defined.  The first heavy resistance is at ~1/2" from center (for total free movement of ~1"), but you can push it another 1/16" past this point.

I'll have to test other games.  Don't expect to hear much about about them soon, though.

-edit- Rephrased my generalities from black and white words to more accurate weighting, and listed the two digital games I played and based my first impressions.

[Minwah]

My first impressions on throw:

Playable in Term2 without restrictor, not playable with.
Too long in digital games without restrictor, playable with.

Sorry for perhaps stating the obvious....but did you select the restrictor type in the software?  If so, is Term2 unplayable with restrictor as it is just too sensitive?

[1UP]

Just got mine, been playing with it here at work a little bit.  I like the feel overall, it does seem to be very stable and is definitely true analog.  The spring is a little soft, but may be a good thing for long gaming sessions.  I'll have to try the harder spring to compare when they are back in stock.

Star Wars is playable, but nothing beats the yoke for nailing Vader's tie over and over.  4-way games definitely need SW mapping as Mame's is pretty much crap.

One interesting thing--this is basically a j-stick with a custom PCB underneath.  The magnet is held on the standard j-stick shaft only by its own magnetic force, so should easily be adaptable to any stick with a steel shaft of the same diameter, just by popping it on, as long as you can maintain the proper centering and spacing when mounting the pcb as well.  I will have to try mounting it on my Tron prototype this weekend... 

[u_rebelscum]

My first impressions on throw:

Playable in Term2 without restrictor, not playable with.
Too long in digital games without restrictor, playable with.

Sorry for perhaps stating the obvious....but did you select the restrictor type in the software?  If so, is Term2 unplayable with restrictor as it is just too sensitive?

Yes and Yes.

It's the very small movements I can't do, and with the restrictor I have about a quarter of the same area of physical movement to the screen; I do things like hit the person instead of the robot behind him or the ammo in front, and shoot left of robot move stick as little as I can and then shoot other side (but not the 'bots that pop up in your face ).

I probably will do better with the square resistor (the diamond restrictor rotated 45 degress a la qbert), but that would mean I'd have to swap restrictors.    I'll try it at some point.

But it could be more me than for others.  For example, I don't like thumb sticks on gamepads because I can't move in small enough movements to use them like the analog they are (think me using ~25-way sticks instead of 256-ways).  Nor do I like the micro-throw 8-way or 4-way sticks as I can't use them well, either. [shrug]  I guess I'm getting old.

Using the longer sticks might help me, though.

I'm hoping to help Andy do some other stuff that might help; anybody know about a good utility that can grab USB HID report descriptors?

[JustMichael]

One interesting thing--this is basically a j-stick with a custom PCB underneath.  The magnet is held on the standard j-stick shaft only by its own magnetic force, so should easily be adaptable to any stick with a steel shaft of the same diameter, just by popping it on, as long as you can maintain the proper centering and spacing when mounting the pcb as well.  I will have to try mounting it on my Tron prototype this weekend... 

I wonder if we could use a slightly longer hollow shaft (same total length as old shaft+magnet) and drill out the center of the magnet?  Then we could slide the magnet onto the hollow shaft and run wires up to a newly installed led in the knob or maybe we could use the same length shaft (but hollowed out) and slide the magnet onto that shaft?  Would the pcb be able to compensate for the difference in the space between itself and the magnet?

[1UP]

I wonder if we could use a slightly longer hollow shaft (same total length as old shaft+magnet) and drill out the center of the magnet?  Then we could slide the magnet onto the hollow shaft and run wires up to a newly installed led in the knob or maybe we could use the same length shaft (but hollowed out) and slide the magnet onto that shaft?  Would the pcb be able to compensate for the difference in the space between itself and the magnet?

From what I can tell, the magnet needs to be fairly close to the sensor--like within 1/8".  It doesn't seem like you'd be able to squeeze in any useful wiring without interfering with the motion of the stick.  I'm not brave enough to drill the magnet on my one sample, so...anyone wannna try it on theirs?     Never mind, I just tried holding the sensor farther away from the shaft, and the range quickly drops off.  Maybe a larger magnet would work farther away but don't have one to try with.

Playing around with the stick a bit more (I've got it apart now!) it looks like it will be a good candidate as the input for a Tron setup.  I just need some longer brackets to hold the sensor PCB to the base I am using, and I think we are in business.  Could have a prototype soon with a few cheap parts...

Thanks for getting me tinkering again Andy!

[1UP]

Hey guys, here's a Tron compatible map that I am experimenting with.  I tried using a smaller area (single line of blocks going into corners) for the diagonals, but that was a little TOO hard.  This one seems to be pretty stable in Light Cycles, but still gives maneuverability during the 8-way stages.

Anyway, give it a try! (Tip: rename the extension from .txt to .um and place it in your Maps folder, and restart UltraMap if you're already using it)  Oh, and if you come up with a better map, please post it here for all to use. 

Cheers 

[JustMichael]

I just had another idea.  Since the magnetic field drops off so quickly why not a shorter shaft and an open sided extension?  The extension will have a ring at the top for going onto the shaft and a solid metal bottom for the magnet to attach to.  The open sides will allow wires to be run up into the shaft.

[JoyMonkey]

Not that it matters, but are these modified Bao Lian sticks? Just curious.
 

[1UP]

I just had another idea.  Since the magnetic field drops off so quickly why not a shorter shaft and an open sided extension?  The extension will have a ring at the top for going onto the shaft and a solid metal bottom for the magnet to attach to.  The open sides will allow wires to be run up into the shaft.

Could be done, but you then also need some way of allowing the stick to turn freely without twisting the wires.  This was the whole problem Christian was having with his lighted ball-tops, which I helped solve by adding the right angle headphone jack to the bottom.  The same method could work with the right shaft (and these shafts are probably too narrow to even accomodate the female jack), but you need to then attach the magnet to the jack fairly dead-center in line with the shaft.  I have no idea if the very presence of an electircal signal from the wiring so close to the magnetic sensor would interfere any, but it's possible (notice how far away the other electronics are from the sensor).

Again, probably doable, but not without a few custom made parts.  If someone wants to tackle this, they'd probably have a seller (I'd Buy it!).  The shafts would also be compatible with the standard J-stick to boot.

[AndyWarne]

drill out the center of the magnet? 

No chance of this unfortunately! Some interesting ideas though.
At the moment I am concentrating on the next development, a restrictor switchable from round to un-restricted. This will be retro-fittable. I have a prototype but next stage is production of an injection mold. Serious stuff..
Andy

[u_rebelscum]

Okay, I've been holding off on this for a while, but time for me grab my box:

Analog was limited to 256 in the old school gameport.  This is not true anymore with modern win9x/XP & USB.  USB can do far higher precision values per axis.  If the sensors and other hardware are designed correctly, they can do 32 bits per axis (256 vs 4,294,967,295 values).  This is done without any special drivers; the standard windows HID drivers already handling your current controllers are the only drivers needed.

Here are links to other products/projects (most are flight simulator related for some reason ) that have at least two axes with greater than 8 bits (ie: >256 values, none are at 32 bit yet):

Plasma-Lite
mJoy
JoyWarrior
Performax
Precision Joystick Controller BU0836

Also, the xbox controller sends 16 bits (from -32768 to 32767) for each axis of the two analog sticks.  See redclOuld's page or this other page.  I think 16 bits is the highest ATM, but there's still room to grow.


I've been talking to Andy about this, and he was able to do the higher resolution on the UltraStik360, too.  It will take a firmware update, which means Andy needs to program it, but I understand he's splitting his time, also busy on some other cool project (that many here will like) ATM.   I don't think many people will mind waiting on this if it speeds up the other project.

Increasing the precision will help on gun games with greater than 256x256 resolutions (anything after nintendo's gun games I think).  Besides those game, I'm not sure how much improvement it will bring (except marketing of course. )  Testing is the only was to answer that.

[nobbo]

howdy all,

as i understand it, if you use these sticks without an ipac, then it is recognised as a gamepad by mame. my question is are most other emulators compatible with gamepads as well, as this could also be a factor in deciding on purchasing these sticks. apologies if this has been brought up already.

cheers

[Xiaou2]

"However, I'm not that confident something like that would be a hot seller, which I'm sure is why it doesn't exist.  It's a very scecialized item that needs either a dedicated stick or manual installation every time, which kind of minimizes its appeal."


  Like a $5000  cabinet made of MDF is a hot seller?          


  Sinistar is a "very" popular classic game..  and no controller out there plays it very well - mostly
because of the way that the resistence the spider creates gives Much greater control.

 Resolution isnt the saving issue.  Its the multiplicatice resistence that adds greater control.   
The differnce:  Its like driving on ice with bare tires -vs- tires with metal spikes and chains on them.       

 This also works great for better control on other analog games.   

 It SHOULD be a technology added to those thumb sticks on gamepads...  as then they
would actually be somewhat controlable and precise.

 Id bet a Sini-Stik  outsells any other custom controller out there.

 Take a look at past sales on ebay of balltop 49 ways.     And remember, that there
have been encoders designed just to read 49 ways..   and no 49 way game is
more popular than sinstar.   And 9 times out of 10,  an encoder and 49 way was
bought just to play sinistar correctly.

 Ohh, and Wernt you "Trying"  to make one once before?

 
 
 

[Dreamwriter]

howdy all,

as i understand it, if you use these sticks without an ipac, then it is recognised as a gamepad by mame. my question is are most other emulators compatible with gamepads as well, as this could also be a factor in deciding on purchasing these sticks. apologies if this has been brought up already.

cheers

Actually, yes, most emulators support gamepads, if not all.  While keyboard (ipac) is always the first thing supported in an emulator, it doesn't take long before they add gamepad support.  Realize that most people using emulators (including emulator authors) aren't using arcade controls to play them, and gamepads are a lot easier to use than keyboards.  And many of those emulators would benefit from analogue controls.

[1UP]

  Like a $5000  cabinet made of MDF is a hot seller?

I knew it wouldn't be long before the personal insults started.  Somehow, it seems no post is big enough for the two of us.  Why the hate?   

But I'll try to keep this civil.

Actually, I've gotten far more requests for cabinets (even at the stated price) than I was able to produce with a small 2-man operation.  However, I am working with a new business model which will allow production of greater numbers at a much lower price point.  How does the number of cabinets I've sold have any relation to whether a Sinistar stick would be a big seller?  And where did you get the idea we were using MDF?

But this is getting off topic, and I was not insulting anyone's ideas, just stating the practical problems with implementing a spider into a multi-game controller.  As you do remember, I was interested in making a Sinistar adapter plate and spider for the 49-way.  The prototype worked very well, but I think there were like 2 people interested in buying one, so it was put on the backburner.  I think in order to be a popular item, it either needs to be switchable, or cheap enough to justify adding it to a control panel just for one game.  For the time being, I personally am not interested in investing any more time or money into it, but you never know.

The other point is that the design of the Ultrastick makes adding anything to the bottom a bit trickier than any  other stick.  So someone needs to work that out.

This also works great for better control on other analog games.   

But not for 4-way or 8-way games, which kind of kills 75% of what you could use these sticks for.  I think a lot of people would like to keep the number of specialized controls to a minimum.

It SHOULD be a technology added to those thumb sticks on gamepads...  as then they
would actually be somewhat controlable and precise.

I think that the LAST thing you want on thumb controllers is increased resistance (OUCH).  BTW, the same effect you are looking for could easily be duplicated by using weighted curves on the analog signal, so the farther you press, the less change in acceleration, so to get your ship really flying, you have to peg it, but the middle area of the stick is more sensitive.  This should be very doable with the internal resolution of these sticks (plenty of data to work with without losing resolution.)

 

Id bet a Sini-Stik  outsells any other custom controller out there.

  Come on, ANY controller?  There are a lot of controllers that are usable in a much wider range of games, and let's face it, the extra parts add cost to the setup, whatever your base controller is.  Just adding a molded part to the mix (the spider) is what scares most people off, as far as production goes on a small run.  That said, if you can come up with a list of buyers, I'm sure someone will be willing to produce these--if they can justify the cost of production versus the number of potential sales.

[Xiaou2]

 It seemed quite the other way arround.   At least, Im pretty much
 used to being attacked and insulted..
 But anyway, I dont hate anyone.

 MDF was stated in one of the older postings.

  As for your Stick.. I wasnt even aware there was any developments.   I suspect that it
was the same for the others.   Also,  just because anyone announces thier plans to
make something, doesnt mean that they will get responces right away.

 People may not see the post..  think that anyone would compete a proto..  they may not
yet have the cash or cabinet built yet... or do not feel its important to speak up as
that persons going to build it anyways...   Etc.   

 However, after seeing a working proto..  that does get people attention.. 
(see new push/pull spinner)
  And seeing an Obj for sale..  and all the sudden you cant stock enough of them.   

  I aslo never said "all in one stick'.  Meaning, I believe people would pay for a Sini-stick
alone. 

 As far as I can see.. not everyone can even imagine that such an all in one stick
will function well for all types of games.   The throw, responce,  feel...ect.   are very
important to many classic  fans.    Still, it may come in handy for something like
a portable bartop.. where control panel space is a concern.

 We shall see how these restrictors pan out I guess...   But to me, if they are too
much of a pain to switch over, they arnt what Id be interested in.
(proto pics andy?)

 "But not for 4-way or 8-way games, which kind of kills 75% of what you could use
these sticks for.  I think a lot of people would like to keep the number
of specialized controls to a minimum."

  Again, that is not everones point of view. ..want..need.
  Many would rather use these as an analog only solution..  keeping thier  typical
fighter or 8/4 way switcher installed.

  Anyone could use an analog stick to control Star Wars for example..  But any starwars
fan will lift thier nose to this idea.   They would rahter drop $300 that they cant
afford into having the correct controller that has flawless accuracry and control.

 "I think that the LAST thing you want on thumb controllers is increased resistance
(OUCH). "

 Ok, think of it like this...  Those little mini-sticks that are on some laptop keyboards
to control the mouse pointer.    Yes, I hate them..  but thats mostly because they are
too small,  throws too small, uncomfortable, ect..     However, they Illustrate a great
point.   You could NEVER control a mouse point that precisely with  an analog thumb pad.
The added pressure gives you that added feedback and control that you wouldnt have
if it were too 'loose' and easy to move.

 On thumbpad sticks,  it wouldnt have to be anywhere near as stiff as those laptop sticks.   
Its pivot point also gives you mechanical advantage, so that it doesnt take as much pressure to
operate.  The thumbs are actually quite strong however.   

 "BTW, the same effect you are looking for could easily be duplicated by using weighted curves on the analog signal, so the farther you press, the less change in acceleration, so to get your ship really flying, you have to peg it, but the middle area of the stick is more sensitive.  This should be very doable with the internal resolution of these sticks (plenty of data to work with without losing resolution.)"

 This really doesnt come close enough..   In fact, it may cause gameplay problems.   
As the scale factor may make your characters speed move at strange increments that
you arent intuitively expecting.     Sinistar is supposed to only have 3? levels of speed
in each direction.. .but,  when  will each  speed kick in?   If the center of the stick contains
too much sensativity, then 2 or 3 speeds may actually be located all in the very center of
the stick.    On other games, it may operate differently...

  The worst past about most analogs in the springs.  Because the center part is where the
pressure in needed to overcome them.  This means that your accuracy within the center
is bad - because you are fighting too much force (in two different Axis directions) to control
accurately.   This is one  reason  they added a 'deadzone'.   Still, its not the best soultion.   

 This sticks springs are a bit differnt than a typical analog stick, which may help
in this aspect a bit.    But, that will not help the  "sliding on ice"  effect.
 
 The mapping in reality only causes less overall resolution.  As your compensating
for huge motions.  In order to do that, you eat up over half the resolution,  by making
half the controller basically the same  vaules.

 If the center is too accureate, then you will have trouble with that because of the
spring tentions as well as leverage issues..   too close to center to be accurate.

 If the ends are more sensative, then its more accurate but.. you slide way too
easily from the middle, to the outter edges.

"Come on, ANY controller? "

  Look, somoene just made a Major Havok controller!   The thing is basically a spinner...
and the game itself can easily be played with a spinner..  and a spinner can be used more
effectively on other spinner and driving wheel games.   But..  to those who have
played with a controller like this.. I guess its worth it for them.  I cant comment, because
Ive never had that experinece with it.

 However, sinistar is a much more popular popular classic.   
There are also other 49 way games..
and any analog game should work great with one as well.



 

[1UP]

Hey Xiaou2, I originally said:

Not that I'm going to make one...but it seems some enterprising individual could make a Sinistar spider that would go on TOP of the stick (using the mounting plate holes) that would be pretty much universal to any stick, including anything Happ or Ultimarc makes--analog or digital.  There might need to be different center inserts to make it work, but very doable.

However, I'm not that confident something like that would be a hot seller, which I'm sure is why it doesn't exist.  It's a very scecialized item that needs either a dedicated stick or manual installation every time, which kind of minimizes its appeal.

But as for the Ultrastick, I can't wait to get my hands on one!  I liked the GP49way combo, but the ability to go full analog is flippin SWEET!  The only question is if this can be adapted to Tron usage...heheh...

As you can see, I was merely making observations as to why we don't currently have a "Sinistick", and even making suggestions for a solution, i.e. a top mounted spider that would be easier to adapt to various sticks.  You didn't see me insulting anyone or any product line.  I don't know how I could make that any more clear, but you seem to misunderstand my intentions quite frequently, and I just wish it wasn't so.  But I am more interested in exploring the possibilities of Andy's new joystick, so I won't mention this further.

Anyway, back on topic, I'd be interested to see if it would be possible to map the Ultrastick in such a way that a good compromise could be made for Sinistar.  I don't think there is any way in the current utility to do analog mapping (at least I haven't had a chance to poke around with it enough).  But one could try something like this:

|speed3|sticky|speed2|speed1|center|speed1|speed2|sticky|speed3|

Shown as a cross-cection across the center 9x9 joystick map from left to right.  So you would not exactly have a dead zone between the medium speed and highest speed, but just a "sticky zone" that keeps the ship headed in the last direction pressed until the joystick is centered or pressed further.

Anyway, I think it's worth trying.

By the way, the Major Havoc controller is indeed very cool, and I might even be willing to fork over the cash for one if they are still available later this year--although it is a little hard to justify the expense just for the sake of one game, even if it is one of my all time favorites.  The spinner works adequately for me, and actually, the first MHavoc game I played may have been a converted Tempest, because I reacall it having a spinner.  Worked fine back then too!  You might think me hypocritical because I had a Star Wars yoke on my machine, but even that controller has a pretty wide range of use, from a limited range steering wheel to a motorcycle controller, and it works awesome in just about any analog flight sim.  It even made a decent T2 controller, it's just a damn stable and precise controller! 

[Xiaou2]

 Well, as far as opinions go..  they can change in time.

 I once hated Leaf switches because of the maintenence, and poor performance in
certain games..  and the way leaf buttons seemed to have too much throw. 

 Years later,  after playing certain classics (with leafs) at a freinds place,  i realized how
much better they were with these types of games.  Completely changed how I
wanted my control panels to be set up.

 I suspect after playing with a stick simular to what I had built..  your views
would probably change for this 'all in one'   idea instead of a dedicated
solution.

 Im also tempted to get a Havok Controller.   Looks pretty badass.   If only it were
arround the 100$ mark.. it would be so much easier to swallow.   Maybe I can construct
one myself..   hehe

 

[dirt]

this may be a dumb question but i didn't understand it completely. do you have to reload the right mapping every time you switch to a game that requires it or is it done automaticly after you load all the files into it? what i am getting at is what would i have to do if i just played donkey kong then i decied to play street fighter. do i just pick the game and go or is there some process i have to follow between games.btw as if you cant tell i am not a techy kinda guy some please dumb it WAY down.

[Minwah]

this may be a dumb question but i didn't understand it completely. do you have to reload the right mapping every time you switch to a game that requires it or is it done automaticly after you load all the files into it? what i am getting at is what would i have to do if i just played donkey kong then i decied to play street fighter. do i just pick the game and go or is there some process i have to follow between games.btw as if you cant tell i am not a techy kinda guy some please dumb it WAY down.

If I understand correctly, when you program the stick it will stay programmed that way until you program it otherwise.  In your example this would mean you need to program the stick back to 8-way after playing Donkey Kong in 4-way mode.  Most people will use a FE along with a handful (or more) maps to do the programming automatically...how this is achieved depends on which FE and also what maps you want to use.