EDIT: Just want to point out that this msg was also originally added in the Hardware Review thread and was merged here, lest I be accused of "thread poisoning", not that my comments are negative. And I was going to start a new thread, but since Kremmit's and Randy's comments were directly related to what I planned to post . . .Let me add some ideas into the fray (mostly for clarification) I understand where RandyT is coming from on this, but let me add some stuff in my own words, and hopefully it will be easier to follow (although more long-winded):
Ok, first off, this will likely make a lot of people upset. That is not my intention. Hopefully, it will make a lot of people think and lead to some open (and possibly lively discussion). And a lot of these points I don't think have ever been considered by most of BYOAC before.
Next, I am not about to pretend that I came up with this information all on my own. However, those that know me well, know that I am not just a "mouthpiece" for other board members. I will consider what I am presented with and will make my own conclusions. (And sometimes these are wrong, and I have no problem admitting that).
And this will probably step on a lot of people's toes, but hopefully not too hard . . .
The first thing I would like to say is I am by no means an expert or even the most qualified to make comparisons on joysticks. I have used a PC flightstick (Gravis destroyer gameport version, usually), and the GGG Omni Stik Prodigies, and have played on different joysticks in the arcades before this hobby existed, but outside of that. . . (If I got to pick someone to put the new stick through it's paces and report back on it, it would probably be Kremmit, but we'll see how this unfolds down the line.
Next, I would like to say that I am not intentionally trying to disrespect the GP Wiz49 and the 49 Way stick or the UltraStik, neither am I trying to unfairly praise one over the other. The free market and hopefully some head to head comparisons by either RetroBlast or members of BYOAC will hopefully settle that far better than I can. I am not trying to put either stick down unfairly, but I also am not going to call it the be all and end all sight unseen.
Also if anything I post is inaccurate, it is b/c I am misinformed, not because I am trying to intentionally put out bad information in an effort to spread FUD.
Finally (before we get to the meat of the post), I owe a slight apology to Andy Warne. He asked (probably nine months ago) when this stick was obviously being designed, why the DRS modes worked and would be required with an analog stick. I answered honestly, but at the time I was considering how MAME handles 8-way sticks and failed to consider how MAME inherently handles analog sticks and how the 49 way differs from what MAME does with any analog. The end result is that I unnecessarily delayed the introduction of the UltraStik by however long as it took Andy to develop the software, but that is not a bad thing as the software does have SOME uses - more below:
Now let's discuss some stuff!!! First off, I will consider 4 way games such as Pac Man and Donkey Kong in the following discussion. Why? Because these types of games cause the most problems for an all around stick. As background these games used a 4 way joystick with 4 -micro (or leaf) switches and a diagonal restrictor plate that prevented you from activating both switches at the same time. Now let's look at some options for playing these from my experience (and a little bit of inference (49 way sticks)).
Restricted 4-way sticks (such as a Prodigy in 4-way mode): this is the way the game was designed to be played. There is little error in MAME, because as you rotate from right to up, the sticks (if properly adjusted) never actuate both microswitches and tend to have only a VERY slight deadzone as the RIGHT microswitch releases just before the UP microswitch activates.
8 way Sticks (such as a Prodigy in 8 way mode): This is where the controversy comes in. As you rotate from right to up, the UP microswitch will activate before the RIGHT microswitch releases. Before the UP switch activates and after the RIGHT switch releases, only one switch is pressed and MAME will have no problem. But during the time that both switches are pressed, MAME has to guess whether the player meant to change direction or just accidentally moved the stick, and sometimes it guesses wrong. (There is also a difference in FEEL as it is possible to move the sticks to the diagonals and there is no natural pocket to hold the stick in a primary direction, but IMHO, this is a minor issue). (Another minor nuance is that almost all digital 8 way sticks tend to favor the diagonals, either because of a square restrictor (Prodigy) or a square actuator (Comp), or other factor (Super), making them counter intuitive for 4-way games).
Analog Sticks: Hanaho (HotRod) used to have a saying on their website: "Ever play Pac Man with a flight stick? IT SUCKS!" The statement is true, but the reasons have nothing to do with the above problems in MAME. A normal analog stick has a resolution of 256x256 positions that the stick can be in. MAME (or most any software emulating a digital joystick with an analog stick, will carve this up into a chart like the one RandyT posted above. This very closely approximates a true four way digital stick (note that no diagonals are allowed), so the only confusion factor for MAME comes in when the stick is EXACTLY on the diagonal line, which is a very small percentage of the area. (And the center "deadzone" which is usually adjustable.) The reason a flight stick sucks is because of the way the stick is constructed. A digital arcade stick is designed with a short throw, and a strong (relatively) return to center. A PC flightstick is designed for flight sims, so the stick has a huge amount of travel and a very weak return to center. This means that you can't change directions quickly, but not that you will have errors because MAME gets confused. But in theory, if you designed an analog stick with short to moderate throw and medium to stiff return to center, it should work well in MAME. (Except again, the motion is circular, not square.)
49-Way Sticks with the DRS modes: This is somewhere between the analog stick and just a digital 8 way stick. The reason the DRS modes are necessary is b/c the stick's resolution is only 7x7 (49 ways) rather than true analog. To get a better idea of where I am going with this Create a 6x6 table in word, or a 7x7 matrix on graph paper. Note that of the 48 non center positions, 12 of them are directly on a diagonal and will create the same type of confusion you get with a 8 way digital stick in 4 way games. 12 of the positions are directly on a primary axis and only create confusion in Q Bert. The remaining 24 positions can be easily resolved which gives you the advantage of less areas in the confusion zone than you would have with a digital 8-way stick. Somehow the DRS modes resolve the coarseness of the matrix in a way that I don't understand and RandyT is not saying, but it seems to work out very well (again with a somewhat circular motion).
So where am I going with this:
First, I see little usefulness of the Mapping software and functions of the sticks. For 4-way games MAME already does this for you. All you are doing is dividing the matrix more coarsely, and then basically telling MAME to use "sticky mode" (too complex for this post) (which it would anyway) over a larger diagonal area due to the smaller resolution of the matrix.
Basically, I suspect that for playing 4-way games, or 8-way games, or 2-way games, the stick will probably perform better with the default (no software mappings, pure analog mode) than with the mode that you would specify in software, but I will let someone else test this out. PLEASE!!!
There are two exceptions to this - one of which is useful.
As many of us are aware, Tron used an 8 way leaf joystick with a large actuator and a diagonal restrictor plate, making it difficult, but not impossible to hit the diagonals. Basically, for light cycles and tanks, you need a 4-way stick and for the spiders and color tower stages you needed an 8-way. I don't think MAME accounted for this (someone should try to add it into MAME) in it's analog digital interface code, but you could come up with a software map for the Ultra Stik to accomplish this.
The other example serves no practical purpose other than to show what could be done Galaga 3 used an 8 way stick and allowed you to move the shooter up and down. Let's say I wanted to simulate playing this game on a standard Galaga machine (for some weird reason). I think I could go into MAME and change the IPT_Type for Galaga 3 to 2 way and recompile, but I could also just use the two way map with Andy's software (or now that I think about it, I could just map UP and DOWN to N/A in MAME, but why take the simple solution).
Finally, this is not intended as a slam on the Ultra Stik. It may be the best stick yet for digital games (and some analog games) which is 90% of MAME. Testing will reveal that aspect, but I do think the software is probably usually not required.
I also think that how successfully the stick works will be mainly decided on the basis of feel, travel, and return to center stiffness. That said, I would be surprised if the stick can simultaneously work well for Sinistar, Star Wars, and Pac Man, but I could be wrong.
What would be cool would be an analog stick with variable throw where the short throw can be used for digital games and the long throw for true analog ones But this would be difficult to accomplish and the Ultra-Stik may work okay with both of them, be interesting to hear how they test out.
In summary - I have two concerns with the Ultra-Stik 1) Whether the mapping actually gives any value to the operation of the stick (which is a minor concern, b/c you could just use the stick in analog mode if that works better), and 2) Whether it is possible to make a stick with enough travel to handle true analog games (Star Wars, Paperboy) well, but short enough throw to handle digital games (Pac-Man, Donkey Kong) well.
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Topic: New Product: Ultimarc UltraStik 360 Analog/Digital Mappable Joystick (Read 67983 times)
