Combination Analog and 360

[Ben]

I'm just beginning to think about my design for a cabinet and I had a question about steering wheels. Being a fan of both some analog driving games (Spy Hunter) and 360

[Minwah]

This would not work...remember that 360degree games can turn forever round and round.  Even if you could find a pot that had near 360degrees travel, it would still stop at it's two extremes.  The mechanical stops are there to protect the pot.

Now if you could somehow disengage the pot (and the centering springs/mechanical stops), then it could be used for 360degree games.  Plus even with the stops/pot in place it could be used (optically) for RoadBlasters

If you get this to work, post it here as this would be a great device.  Good luck!

[Ben]

I'm not an expert on Pots, but I thought there were some that could spin continously. They just jump from their max to min voltage at a certain angle (actually, I thought they had a few degree dead spot). I did a bit of Google searching on continous pots, and thought that's what the term meant. That was to avoid having to disconnect the pot.

I figured mechanical stops wouldn't be too hard to impliment. I hadn't thought about the centering spring though, I'll have to ponder on that...

Ben

[Lilwolf]

Any game that runs well with a mouse (moving left and right) will work well with a 360 free flowing.

but for the ones that need the analog (don't know any) work on getting a starwars yoke.  Works great for driving games and nothing beats it for starwars!

[Beley]

I theory this would work,  you can get pots that will turn continuous around.  but if you had the pot attached to the whole time it would wear out pretty quickly and add a fair bit of friction for the 360 type games.

your idea is workable, its just a meter of figuring out the mechanical aspects of engaging/disengaging the stops and pot.  maybe if you had some type of socket on the end of the shaft that an assembly for the pot and stops could be attached?

[Minwah]

My apologies, I did not realise you could get continuously rotating pots...

But the key to a lot of 360degree wheel games is being able to freely spin the wheel.  A pot usually gives resistance, so you can't actually SPIN the wheel, just turn it (does that make sense?).

This is definately a great idea, but IMO you need to somehow disengage the pot for 360 games as Beley says.  Not sure how to go about that easily

[Ben]

Well, I was thinking of something along the lines of this pot

The torque is rated at .003Ncm or .005in-Lbs. On a 10 inch diameter wheel, that would equate to .001 lbs of force resistance at the outside edge of the wheel. I suspect it would spin pretty well. Being rated for 100 million cycles, it should last.

Now that one isn't perfect, because it's only rated for about 1.5 revolutions per second. I suspect you'd want something a bit more substantial then that. Ideally, you'd also want a pot with an electrical angle of 270

[Xiaou2]

  I think the wear or a full circle pot - especially after playing a game like supersprint, would kill it  Very fast!  heh

  It would be better to use some sort of gear on the main shaft... and a movable platform that engages both the pot (with a smaller gear), and the stopper assembly,  all in one shot.

  I had started on a plan for this just for kicks.... but was having trouble figuring out the best and safest way to engage the thing without the possibility of the pot being in the wrong positioning - thus breaking the thing.

 My idea also kept the stopper bar on the main shaft -  as the 'stopper bumpers' themselves, are moved into and out of place,  on the same platform that the pot/gear assembly ride on.

  Maybe that will give you some ideas.  My time has been pretty limited, as Im working on a large project currently.

[Ben]

Heh, I know I don't play games as much as some, but I really can't see going over the 100 million cycle mark any time soon. If the pot could stay engaged all the time, it would be a heck of a lot less complicated. Even if you do hit 100 million cycles, you'd have gotten your moneys worth These kind of pots are used as industrial sensors on rotating equipment, so they're extremely long lasting. I think a low-torque, long life pot really would be able to stand up to the abuse. The trick is finding the right one.

I had been debating which stopping mechanism would be better. I had thought about having the bumpers move in and out, but then I was thinking it might be easier to have a spring loaded pin that dropped down into a 270 degree groove on the steering wheel shaft. It'd work kind of like a ball point pen, one press would drop it down and one press would bring it back up. I'll have to think about the design and see what's out there that could easily be rigged up.

Ben

[Minwah]

Since you are planning to use a continuous pot, you don't really need the stopping mechanism (I mean the pots won't break by over-turning)...not 100% arcade true maybe but it would work.  Are you planning on having springs to centre the wheel?

[Xiaou2]

  I wonder if such a pot really exist - that both turns 360 - and is correct in value to be used with a pc joystick hack.

  And if so... would it be durrable enuff.

  I used to work on games in the arcade I worked for... and pots didnt seem to be invincibly durrable.   Replaced pots on a regular basis... and these were the expensive ones direct from manufacturers.

  Im guessing that most pots arnt made for you to spin them at 300rpms ! : )   lol    Im not sure thats the speed that I spun supersprint wheels at... but it surely was fast and furrious.   1million cycles at what speed.. and surely that wasnt stop/start motions at super high speeds?

   Would be nice if it works tho.  Lot less complicated design.

   
   The shaft would have to be pretty thick I think... to be able to use it a as a stopper.  As with a wheel, you have so much force via leverage... that you could break it easily with a simple hard turn.

  However, an attachment that fits over the shaft thats thicker, and is attacked via setscrews, might be a viable option.

  Hah - just remembered something I saw in a sega wheel.  It used an ovular shaped disc attached to the shaft... and on either side of it - there were these spring-loaded walls.  

  When you turned the wheel, the oval shape pushed the walls appart...  and that made the wheel resistence, and snap back to the center.

  By making a simular device... but makeing the wall section move back when not in use... would allow for freespin or resistence.    A limiter might also be fashioned into the design as well.


 

[Ben]

The best pot I've found so far is the Spectrol 357. It's electrically rated for 2 million shaft revolutions. It doesn't state a speed in any spec I could find. It's available at Arcadeelctronics.com. I don't know any thing about that website, but I figured the name bode well They're not exactly cheap however. I'll keep digging to see if there is a rotational limit.

It only goes up to 50kOhms though, not 100. this website talks about modding the pot with some capacitors to get around the 50k issue. I'm pretty foggy on my circuit stuff, so I'd have to sit down with the site to try and digest what's they're doing.

Spring loaded bumpers is an interesting idea. You could combine both the bumpers and return spring into the same mechanism and have them both move out of the way when you're playing a 360 game...

Ben

[Ben]

Actually, this pot goes up to 100kOhms. Rated for 5 million turns, with only 0.3 oz-in of torque.

Ben

[brandon]

I have an idea that might be more complicated to build but very easy to use once it was done..  What you could do is have a solid shaft within a hollow shaft.  The hollow shaft would have the encoder wheel and optics attached and the solid shaft could have all the analog stuff (pot, springs, bumpers...)  then you would attach the two by drilling a hole through both and inserting a pin.  So when you want to play a 360 game just pull out the pin and spin away...when you put the pin back the wheel would center and do its normal thing...  I've had this idea for a long time but I've never gotten around to building it.. I think someone like Oscar could go to Home Depot and have this thing built in a day.  But if he uses my idea I want a discount on a spinner...  

[Xiaou2]

 Well,  maybe not 100% perfect...  as who knows about the materials and stress...ect... but I think Ive done it...  : )

 

 
  The entire rear part of the assembly is riding on a board that slides back / forth.   The link is made by a standard d-pot based system  (two half parts fitting together)

  Not shown are springs that can be mounted to the centering/ Restrictor arm.

  Also not shown... as hadnt fully designed it... was a lever arm that pushed/pulled and locked the rear section in place.

  I think the hardest part would be to get the right optowheel (oscar's?) ... and to center it perfectly on the  shaft.  

  The only thing that is missing would be an awesome force feedback motor...  and outrun shaker motor   : (    

   Sorry for the poor quality pic... was in a rush.   Whats everyone think?  : )

 

 

[Ben]

That definitly looks like it would work. I would think that you could hack an arcade 360 wheel so you wouldn't have to worry about aligning the encoder wheel.

The trick would be making it compact enough to be usable. I bet it could be done. Hrm, I'm going to have to sit down and see if I can figure out a cheap way to do this

Ben

[Xiaou2]

 ^_^


    Took a while, but was a fun challenge : )     I kinda wish I thought of it before.   Ahh well.   I have both types of wheels now so I have no need to build it.

    Tho, Id like to know how it turns out,  So please keep us informed on your progress.     : )

   And if you need any more ideas... feel free to ask.


   Sincerely,
   Steve
   


 http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com

   

[MinerAl]

Instead of having both on one shaft, have a gear transmission with two positions.  One position turns the optical shaft with freewheeling ability, the other position turns the potentiometer with 270 degrees motion.  

You could even do it with legos.  Since you were gearing down the movement, you could have a big hardy shaft to take the abuse of the wheel itself, and a little tiny actual mouse sized optical wheel and sensor on the one side, and a smaller pot on the other.

You'd just have to have a little shift lever or button near the base of the wheel.

[Xiaou2]

  Um,  thats 2 shafts btw.   One if linked.


  Anyways... that surely would be smaller... but it dosnt solve how to physically stop the wheel - or to give resistence,  or to return the wheel to center.

  Its a matter of preference... but I certainly prefer a more realistic feel... and the better control thats usually associated with it.

 

[MinerAl]

Xiaou2:

I was thinking of the originally suggested 360 pot on the same shaft as the optical wheel, not your design.

Wherever the wheel was when you shifted it over to the self centering 270 side would be the center.   You'd just have to spin the wheel to a place you like and flip the switch.

Your design is very cool b.t.w..  I was just thinking aloud on the intriguing original challenge.

[Xiaou2]

 Ahh... Gotya

  Thanks MinerAl  : )

   
   Yeah, I though about something simular - with a gear system... but then that was the problem... how to make the gears line up without the pot being off from the last time you used it...   Tho I admit, I was going for the whole 'shabang' rather than just the initail challenge : )   lol