Terminator 2, MAME 106, Lightgun

[MKChamp]

Anyone else having issues with only this game since 105u3 or u4? Seems to not work with the LCD lightguns anymore. All other light games work great. This one doesn't seem to track the guns. I made a post at mametesters but never got a responce. If no one else is experiencing this...I would know it is me. Please advise! Thanks!

[Minwah]

Make sure the game is calibrated - go into the service menu.

[MKChamp]

I have tried to recalibrate it...no go. I will try to delete the nvram tonight and see if that helps. Strange...it just 'stopped' working after the u release. I have a feeling it's 'user error' ;-)

[Howard_Casto]

It's not strange at all.....


Around .105 two things happen that'll effect your inputs.

#1, Now each mouse is unique.... so the global mice settings won't work. 


#2, Now positional gun games are mapped to adstck (as they should be)  so doing something as simple as using the -lightgun flag will no longer work.  You'll have to make a ctrlr file for the game, mapping each adstick axis to the appropraite mouse axis.


As soon as I saw this question I knew the cause but I wanted to wait to see if anyone else would figre it out. 

*sigh*  I guess I'm the only one who actually reads the "what's new" for mame.   

[MKChamp]

I actually read the what's new and I've really been following the mouse code progress closely. Term2 worked flawlessly with 105, 105u1 and then something happen around u2 or u3(dont remember exactly which). I've remapped the guns and even copied the cntrl file from revolution x but with no success. I'll mess with it more tonight since I know it is something with ME and not MAME.

[u_rebelscum]

#2, Now positional gun games are mapped to adstck (as they should be)  so doing something as simple as using the -lightgun flag will no longer work.  You'll have to make a ctrlr file for the game, mapping each adstick axis to the appropraite mouse axis.

Term2 worked flawlessly with 105, 105u1 and then something happen around u2 or u3(dont remember exactly which). I've remapped the guns and even copied the cntrl file from revolution x but with no success. I'll mess with it more tonight since I know it is something with ME and not MAME.

I think a little confusion on same named terms is happening here.  "Mame input port type" vs. "physical input device", from now on called "port type" & "physical device" respectively.  Mame changed term2's port type from lightgun to (the more correct AFA physical electronics) AD_stick port type in 0.105u3.  RevX, however, still uses lightgun port type (AFAIK).

So you can't use the pre-0.105u3 ctrlr file or the revX cfg files since the port types are different. 

You need to map you physical device lightgun to term2's AD_stick port type.  (Or hand edit the ctrlr file, but if you do, I think you'll have to decrease the lightgun number by one as the lightgun numbering was fixed so lightgun number = mouse number.) 

I guess I'm the only one who actually reads the "what's new" for mame.   

I actually read the what's new and I've really been following the mouse code progress closely.

The change from port type lightgun to AD_stick was not mentioned in the whatsnew AFAICT.  And it looks like it was not complete, as revX is still lightgun port type. [shrug] 

[MKChamp]

Ahhh...that explains it.  So, I'm not crazy. I also noticed that when sorting the games in MAMEWAH via input(lightgun), Terminator 2 no longer showed up in the list and had to be manually inserted.

I hate not knowing why things change unexpectantly. Thank you!

[Howard_Casto]

I hate to pick on you, but it says right in the mame what's new  "fixed the positional gun games to use adstick input ports" or something to that degree.  It's only unexpected if you don't bother to read the whatsnew.txt, which you should always do. 


The question comes up though.... why wasn't revX fixed?  Doesn't it use essentially the same gun as term2 but with a new shell?


Ugh..... mame devs if you are going to fix something, do it completely. 

[MKChamp]

And that was my delimma. I didn't understand why term2 no longer worked while revx, which is basically same hardware, did.
 Wasn't sure what the what's new text file was referring to.

I saw that revx worked ok without any changes, yet term2 didn't.

[MKChamp]

Just in case anyone needs a cfg file for term2 (and probably revolution x soon), here is mine. I have 2 LCD guns connected...

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!-- This file is autogenerated; comments and unknown tags will be stripped -->
<mameconfig version="10">
    <system name="term2">
        <input>
            <port type="P2_BUTTON1" mask="4096" index="6" defvalue="4096">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    MOUSECODE_2_BUTTON1
                </newseq>
            </port>
            <port type="P2_BUTTON2" mask="8192" index="7" defvalue="8192">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    MOUSECODE_2_BUTTON3
                </newseq>
            </port>
            <port type="P1_AD_STICK_X" mask="255" index="24" defvalue="128">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    GUNCODE_1_ANALOG_X
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="decrement">
                    GUNCODE_1_ANALOG_X
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="increment">
                    GUNCODE_1_ANALOG_X
                </newseq>
            </port>
            <port type="DIPSWITCH_NAME" mask="7" index="27" defvalue="3" value="7" />
            <port type="P1_AD_STICK_Y" mask="255" index="76" defvalue="128">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    GUNCODE_1_ANALOG_Y
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="decrement">
                    GUNCODE_1_ANALOG_Y
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="increment">
                    GUNCODE_1_ANALOG_Y
                </newseq>
            </port>
            <port type="P2_AD_STICK_X" mask="255" index="79" defvalue="128">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    GUNCODE_2_ANALOG_X
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="decrement">
                    GUNCODE_2_ANALOG_X
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="increment">
                    GUNCODE_2_ANALOG_X
                </newseq>
            </port>
            <port type="P2_AD_STICK_Y" mask="255" index="82" defvalue="128">
                <newseq type="standard">
                    GUNCODE_2_ANALOG_Y
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="decrement">
                    GUNCODE_2_ANALOG_Y
                </newseq>
                <newseq type="increment">
                    GUNCODE_2_ANALOG_Y
                </newseq>
            </port>
        </input>
    </system>
</mameconfig>

[Cananas]

I hate to pick on you, but it says right in the mame what's new  "fixed the positional gun games to use adstick input ports" or something to that degree.  It's only unexpected if you don't bother to read the whatsnew.txt, which you should always do.

Could you tell us where is this awesome line? Maybe you're the only person that can read invisible lines (like some kind of superman...)(http://mamedev.org/releases/whatsnew_0106.txt)

Ugh..... mame devs if you are going to fix something, do it completely. 

 
(Like a Duracell spot says in spanish: "y duran, y duran, y duran...")

[Howard_Casto]

"Fixed incorrect lightgun names. [Derrick Renaud]"


no comment on who specifically did the fix.... it's too easy


I will say this:

It'd be understandable to miss a few with all the positional guns in mame.  That is if it weren't for the controls.dat project, which has nearly every positional gun game documented, including revolution x and teminator 2 and you can sort by control type right on the main page. 

And before someone says it's not as accurate as mame's documentation, you are absolutely right... it is MORE accurate than mame's documentation. 

[Cananas]

Could you tell us where is this awesome line? Maybe you're the only person that can read invisible lines (like some kind of superman...)(http://mamedev.org/releases/whatsnew_0106.txt)

"Fixed incorrect lightgun names. [Derrick Renaud]"

Howard, you have a great imagination!!!  I suppose you are joking, or...

This is what Derrick fixed:

Lightgun name:

Looks like I made a cut/paste error, when I cleaned up the lightgun names for 105. All lightguns are reported as the number of mice + 1. Oops.

Read Original post on:http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=71861&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1d

If you don't know something, please, be quiet.

[Derrick Renaud]

Thanks for saving me from repling Cananas.  And you are correct.  I had nothing to do with changing Term2 to AD stick.

But the fix is correct.  And expect most gun games to be changed to AD stick before 107 comes out.

I did not want to change it because while correct, I did not want to hear people ---smurf--- about it.

As for peoples stupid responses of why was X changed and not Y... Them damn lazy MAMEdevs... etc...

REMEMBER, this is a frickin' hobby.  We overlook things, live with it.  Rome was not built in a day, etc.  The time spent bitchin about stuff, could easily be put towards sending in a fix yourself.

And finally, to answer a question that has been asked of me.  I have no intention of adding DIMOUSESTATE2 support so that more then 4 mouse buttons can be used.  RAWMOUSE can only support 5 anyways.  I have no desire to return to the input code to hear people ---smurf--- and moan about further changes, sorry.

D.

[Cananas]

Thanks for saving me from repling Cananas.  And you are correct.  I had nothing to do with changing Term2 to AD stick.

And finally, to answer a question that has been asked of me.  I have no intention of adding DIMOUSESTATE2 support so that more then 4 mouse buttons can be used.  RAWMOUSE can only support 5 anyways.  I have no desire to return to the input code to hear people ---smurf--- and moan about further changes, sorry.

D.

Yes, you are right about the RAWMOUSE limit. Thank you for your confirmation. But If you change DIMOUSESTATE to DIMOUSESTATE2 (and something more) you can reach this limit (5 buttons) that is also the Smog driver limit, that of course, is the Microsoft limit.

Actually, mame is limited to 4 buttons. I don't know if Mamedev would be interested to admit this modification I made.
This is what I wanted to ask you.



BTW, we are happy with the RawMouse in Mame (we need it). Maybe some day Microsoft change this limitation...maybe...

[Derrick Renaud]

[Yes, you are right about the RAWMOUSE limit. Thank you for your confirmation. But If you change DIMOUSESTATE to DIMOUSESTATE2 (and something more) you can reach this limit (5 buttons) that is also the Smog driver limit, that of course, is the Microsoft limit.

Actually, mame is limited to 4 buttons. I don't know if Mamedev would be interested to admit this modification I made.
This is what I wanted to ask you.

DIMOUSESTATE2 is only valid for DX7 and up.  So you can not just add 2 to the end of DIMOUSESTATE.  You need to check if DX7 is being used.  So everywhere the DIMOUSESTATEs are used you need to check and use DIMOUSESTATE or DIMOUSESTATE2 based on if a DIMOUSESTATE2 could be created at runtime.

I personally do not see the need to support anything less then DX7, but others want us to support down to DX3 or so.  So any patch needs to be tested on older DX versions.

D.

[Cananas]

I personally do not see the need to support anything less then DX7, but others want us to support down to DX3 or so.  So any patch needs to be tested on older DX versions.

D.

Opps. I suppossed that this would not be necessary, because mame uses de DX8 headers and libraries to compile...

[Derrick Renaud]

I personally do not see the need to support anything less then DX7, but others want us to support down to DX3 or so.  So any patch needs to be tested on older DX versions.

D.

Opps. I suppossed that this would not be necessary, because mame uses de DX8 headers and libraries to compile...

If you look at the input code it checks for DX7 at run-time, then falls back and trys DX5 then DX3.

D.

[Howard_Casto]

I apologize then, I didn't realize that wasn't what you meant Derrick....


Now I've got to figure out who screwed up and get on their case then. 


I think you believe that I have a problem with you, I don't, quite the contrary.  Your poor attitude towards criticism got me mad at you, but that's another story. 

I'm mad at the way the mame heads are letting in sub-standard code.  And by sub-standard I don't mean bad code, I mean bad code for mame.... there is a BIG difference.  I believe there is a quote over at mamedevs in their faq that knowing how to code well in C and knowing mingw has less to do with mame then knowing how the mame functions work and how emulation works.  This is very true. 

Is it the fault of a "part-timer" meaning well but submitting code that probably isn't the best way of doing it?  Of course not.  Is it the fault of the guys managing the builds who aren't thoroughly checking submissions to make sure not only that they function, but they don't break other functions and interfere with the documentation aspect of mame?  Quite simply yes, it is. 

If it were a u build then I could see it, but something this bad getting out in an official build is borderline shameful.  Even if there was a note like (not all analog guns are defined correctly) or something like that would have been enough for me.  But changing only half of the guns back without notice and without checking to make sure it is an accurate reflection?  Come on guys, that's more than a minor slip up... especially considering, as I said, which guns are which are well-documented and there might be 20 positional gun games in mame, tops, lumped into 4 or 5 driver files. 


I think what makes me the maddest about this is the fact that at one point they were correct (and were for the majority of mame's history).  Everyone got a lightgun and some genius decided to hack the inputs for positional gun games to use the lightgun (mouse) inputs.  Now this would have been acceptable to me for getting hardware to work, except for the fact that the frikkin hardware it was hacked to still couldn't play those games!!!  At the time all lightguns for the pc were traditional and since regular lightguns can't constantly track it's completely impossible to play a game like terminator 2 (in any enjoyable fashion) with a lightgun.  Now at least two years pass by, guns for the pc that DO constantly track are available and they change it back to adstick inputs.  Explain the logic in that to me.  Of course input names as it pertains to analog ports, for the most part, are superficial at this point due to that big analog re-write, but it's the principal of the thing. 


Long story short, the inputs needed changed for a long time, I'm not fighting that one bit.  I'm just a little ticked off because:

a.  They shouldn't have been changed in the first place.
b.  It shouldn't have taken this long to get them changed back.
c.  Since it did take this long it's kind of hard to take only fixing half of the games as a simple mistake, especially considering there were like 10 "u" builds fixing inputs between .105 and .106

[Derrick Renaud]

Howard, 

You seem to know it all, but as far as I know, you have never submitted any usefull code.  That's like complaining about politicians, without ever voting.

You still seem to take jabs at my recent mouse changes, despite that fact that I have shown you how wrong you are about your statements.  Learn the facts.  If you don't like how mice and joysticks are handled, complain to Microsoft.  They made the bad set of interfaces.  Once again, we are still awaiting this great code from you that shows the proper way.

As I have told you before, but you can not grasp it, my code did little to change MAME's multi-mouse behaviour.  The code was already there.  I just linked into it, if RAWMOUSE was available.  But seeing how you did not grasp things the first time round, there is no sense it me rehashing it all again.

You really have got to learn to not let all the little changes bug you.  MAME is an on-going project.  Things change, live with it.  Be warned.  There are a whole bunch of MAME core changes coming that are going to piss you right off.

Personally I think it is time to remove the whole windows layer from MAME.  Then let someone other then the MAME team handle it's upkeep.  This way, the person who would maintain the windows OS layer could add any little -switches they want, as long as they do not go against the spirit of MAME, like removing warnings.

As for only changing some of the gun games.  I never looked at the changes but I think only T2 was changed.  Probably to test the water, so to speak.  [edit] They should be all changed soon.  But I will recommend to miss a few on purpose, just for kicks.

Myself I just have a gun.ini ctrlr file that defines my player 1 and 2 controls when I play a gun game.  How amazingly hard is that?  I also use a different ctrlr file for each control panel I use.  Pretty damn hard to do.

I have no problems with criticism.  I welcome it, if it is usefull.  Unfortunately, yours is usually not.  You always state you don't like something and then leave the impression you know a better way.  This would not be so bad, but you go on and complain how things are done on a coding level, yet never supply any code.

On behalf of the whole MAME team, I apologize for not coding all your great ideas for you.  We really should run any changes past you first.  You paid us so much for the program, yet we keep not listening to you.

GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL.  MAME is not a company.  The whole program is written and changed when someone is interested enough to do so.  If it pisses you off, then so be it.  If things are missed, during a change, oh well.  You say you know how to code, so instead of your usual whining, try submitting a patch, or shut up.  It really is that simple.

As for me being a part time coder.  MAME is full of them.  Unfortunately for you, we all have lives and other jobs.  Not to mention my discrete work requires a lot of non-coding time.  I have to breadboard circuits and analyze how the circuit really works.  Because (and this is all my fault of course) the schematics are usually wrong; the data sheets are usually not accurate enough and sometimes outright wrong; and SPICE programs are very inaccurate when it comes to the strange things designers did with discrete circuits.  So I have to accurately work out what is really going on and write code that emulates the circuits in real time, which SPICE can not do.

To sum it all up, your whining is much more productive then anything I do for MAME.

 

D.

[MKChamp]

I am a programmer myself...but speaking as an END USER of MAME I can speak with 100% certainty that the mouse code added to MAME was without a doubt an enhancement. I would gander to say 99% of the users of MAME do not have the number of 'mice' devices I use in my cabinet. I have 2 LCD guns, opti-pac(for 2 rotary sticks) and ps/2 mouse connected. That's 4 mice.

 Most users of MAME are the regular guys that have it installed on their PC and don't go off the deep end like some of us and build a dedicated cabinet and start adding all the mice devices your typically desktop computer does not posess.

Before the code Derrick submitted, I struggled with advance MAME, analog+ and my own derivatives to get 2 act-lab guns to work in conjunction. It wasn't until Derrick finally got the drive and (most importantly) time to give us his submittion that I was able to finally get 2 guns working with the STANDARD build of MAME. I thank him for this.

Howard, I find it funny that someone with 4587(at the time of my post) posts would not have the time to code what they believe is the right way to do something. It would appear you spend more time 'talking' than 'walking'...literally. I totally agree with Derrick. If YOU know a better way to implement something, do it. I guarantee if it is more accurate, better coded and more efficient it would be incorporated. Following Derrick's post and submittions, I bet he would even recommend it.

It's like watching pro football. I even catch myself thinking, "man, if that were me I would have done this or done that". In reality, it's alot easier being the back seat driver telling him what to do than actually doing it. I think this is the case here. It's so easy saying how to do something rather than doing it yourself.

If you can submit code that handles multiple mice better than the code that is NOW currently incorporated in the standard build of MAME, then please do so(it currently works flawlessly for me). Until then, PLEASE quit bashing the code that Derrick submitted FREE OF CHARGE for me and the rest of the guys that desperately waited to be able to play all the current games supported in MAME with 2 guns TRACKING!

[Howard_Casto]

Derrick, first off I think you need to let it go.  I didn't mention your mouse additions once and even apologized to you for wrongly accusing you of doing the pos gun fixes in my reply and yet you STILL managed to write two pages justifying them to me AGAIN.  I let it go, you need to.  This is why we got in an argument in the first place.

Mk same goes for you.... I didn't mention derricks mouse changes now did I?  So why exactly are you yelling at me again?  Be sure to read and not get confused... Derrick was the one who brought em up, not me. 

responding to the whole "do it yourself" b.s. :


Here's the thing you guys don't get..... I have submitted changes to mame in the past but at this point I have pretty much gave up on it.  Why? Even though I thouroughally checked my submissions only around 50% of them ever get accepted. 

If they get accepted or not seems to depend upon who's in charge and the mood they are in at the time and less on if they are actually good submissions or not.

For example these very same positional gun games we are talking about now.  When they we first changed ages ago I went over to the mameworld and very kindly asked why they were changed and even offered to change them back myself.  I got responses by many of the guys in charge (at the time) and although they were nice about it, their response was basically "this is the way we want it so buzz off."  I'm sure the fact that at the time act-labs gave some of the major mame devs a free lightgun and made a generous donation to the dumping project had nothing to do with this decision. 

So I gave up on fixing that one only to find that some two years later they ARE willing to change it back only to find out it didn't get done right.  Mind you, I agree with you guys, it's a minor thing, but considering I was willing to do the work myself it's a little disheartening. 

I've also had issues with changing input ports for accuracies sake.  Usually the devs are very receptive to fixes, but every once in a while I try to fix someone's "favorite" driver and it doesn't get changed.  Now strangely enough a few months will pass by and my changes will get added only someone else's name is on the credits because they submit virtually the same patch later on and the devs are in a good mood or something... I dunno.  I'm just glad they get fixed either way, but if they aren't going to take my patches then there isn't much point in me doing them is there?

I'm sure you guys won't believe me on this because apparently I'm the bad guy and that means that everybody with 2 cents worth of opinion has to jump on me personally whenever I have anything negative to say about some mame changes, but this kind of stuff does happen.  I think Aaron, meaning to do good has changed this policy, unfortunately he's drifting too far to the left, removing/adding some rather strange things.  His core changes have always made sense to me, and are greatly appreciated, it's some of the other things that leave me scratching my head. 

Long story short it isn't always as simple as doing it yourself and on many occasions I DO do it myself.  The problem is even if I do it myself that doesn't mean it gets in mame, and I don't have the time or energy to do a custom build anymore. 


And yes I do have a rather large post count.  That's because I've been here for over 7 YEARS  thanklessly building up the other end of the hobby (support software)  and helping guys just like you with your software questions on a regular basis.  I do this both publically on the boards and privately via pm and email.  Yeah guys I'm just sitting on my hands here picking my nose, I have plenty of time to totally re-write mame's input system every other official release and put back in all the -front end related tags Aaron took out and manage a custom build. The 8 software projects and 4 hardware projects I'm juggling right now don't take up any of my free time at all. 


(p.s. to those I've helped in the past "thanklessly" isn't meant literally... I do remember "thank yous" when I get them and they mean the world to me)

[Cananas]

Derrick, first off I think you need to let it go.  I didn't mention your mouse additions once and even apologized to you for wrongly accusing you of doing the pos gun fixes in my reply

Quote from: Howard_Casto on Yesterday at 03:54:21 AM
"Fixed incorrect lightgun names. [Derrick Renaud]"

Oh, yes. You did not mention to Derrick...

And yes I do have a rather large post count.  That's because I've been here for over 7 YEARS  thanklessly building up the other end of the hobby (support software)  and helping guys just like you with your software questions on a regular basis.  I do this both publically on the boards and privately via pm and email. 

Sure. Help like this (in this Topic):

I hate to pick on you, but it says right in the mame what's new  "fixed the positional gun games to use adstick input ports" or something to that degree.  It's only unexpected if you don't bother to read the whatsnew.txt, which you should always do.

*sigh*  I guess I'm the only one who actually reads the "what's new" for mame.

A great help, but it seems that you are the only one that can read the whatsnew.txt, understand nothing, and not happy with this, tell the people that they are wrong, they don't read the wahtsnew, etc..

Good help.

[Derrick Renaud]

Howard, the crap you have posted in this thread (and others) boggles my mind.  How you took the change to the input definitions of T2 into some great conspiracy, and lack of programing/management ability on MAMEdev's part is truly bizarre.

There was no way it could have been as simple as someone on the MAME team noticing that T2 did not use a lightgun and decided to change it.  Which may have started an internal discussion, that you know nothing about.  Of course this is such a major thing that a full release should have been held up for it.   

If you want to talk about bad program releases, you have to look no further then your home page.  It seems you released a program that was not even tested to make sure it worked, and then had to release an updated version.  So MAMEdev really should listen to your comments on MAME releases.

That said I give up.  I will do my best to ignore your misinformed, rambling troll posts.

Good luck in your programming efforts.  If you have managed to help someone in your 4500+ posts, that's great.

-------------

These discusions remind me of a recent discussion at work.

[co-worker 1] Hey co-worker 2, is that your red car in the parking lot?

[co-worker 2] No.

(There are 4 black cars and a red one in the parking lot.  co-worker 2's normal car is not there.)

[co-worker 1] That's not your red car?

[co-worker 2] Nope.

[me] (rolling eyes) Ask him what color his car is!

[co-worker 1] What color is your car?

[co-worker 2] Cherry!

[me] What color is a cherry?

[co-worker 2] Red.

[me] (smashing head against wall to make brain feel better) But your car is not red?

[co-worker 2] No.

goodnight everybody......

D.

[whatzcrackn]

I have been reading the wrong post...............

Wait-a-minute..........

Okay the popcorn is ready... Let the dukes fly!