Crazy idea: Illuminate buttons you need per game!!

[Fat-Johnny]

I have yet to build my MAME cabinet, but have been thinking about it a LOT lately.  I came up with an idea, and wonder if it has been done before or at least discussed before:

When you have friends over, is it a neverending Q&A session of "What buttons do I use??"  Some games use 1 button (fire), some use 2 (fire and jump), some games use all 6 (fighters).  How possible is it to illuminate ONLY the buttons used for each individual game??

I figure if the IPAC can control LED's to flash (for 1UP and 2UP), why cant IPAC or someone else design such a system??  Of ocurse, it would have to be driven by some sort of flags within MAME, and I do not know how hard/easy that would be to implement.

Anybody else think this is a cool idea?  Anybody else think it is possible?

Looking for your thoughts,
Fat Johnny

[rampy]

Well, this could be coupled with teh controls.dat project which will do (with the appropriate front end) display on THE SCREEN which buttons do what per game when you select it.  If that was combined by some fancy (paralell port?) driven  interface it could be done.

So, I suggest you get started designing that circuit =P

(or just settle for the coming on screen display thingie via controls.dat )

RAmpy

PS don't let my semi-sarcastic comments dissuade you, it IS a good idea - just might be a pain to be first person to implement it  =P

[CitznFish]

Well, this could be coupled with teh controls.dat project which will do (with the appropriate front end) display on THE SCREEN which buttons do what per game when you select it.  If that was combined by some fancy (paralell port?) driven  interface it could be done.

So, I suggest you get started designing that circuit =P

(or just settle for the coming on screen display thingie via controls.dat )

RAmpy

PS don't let my semi-sarcastic comments dissuade you, it IS a good idea - just might be a pain to be first person to implement it  =P

Can't wait to see controls.dat up and running!  

[rampy]

Can't wait to see controls.dat up and running!  

I think they need a hand organizing/documenting some of the games (you know someone has to verify that "x" game uses "y" buttons for "z" functions)... so if you wanted to expedite it's being ready er something...

*Shrug*

rampy

PS I *think* they still need a hand, anyways...

info here somewhere http://www.fe.donkeyfly.com/

[1UP]

You don't necessarily have to wait for controls.dat.  Emulaxian can do button labels right now (not automatically though.)  You just have to make an image file for every game (or at least some default images for general 1, 2, 4, and 6 button games,) showing a photo of your CP, and labeled with what buttons are used in a game.  Then highlight a game in the FE and hit player 2 start, and the help screen comes up.  Also lets you do a screen for what buttons to use in the FE.

You could also print a CP label for your player 2 start button that says "Button Help" or something, so your guests know by looking at the panel which one to push for help.

I know all this doesn't help you with getting illuminated buttons, but it's probably the best option for now, as I can't imagine Oscar or Andy offering a product like this, and it sounds like a rather complex thing to do with homebrewed circuitry.  I could be wrong.

[Distortion]

you could put a set of on/off switches wired (not in sequence, of course) to each set of buttons for each number of buttons.  so switch on the neo-geo layout button, and the 4 buttons lite up, switch on the capcom button, the 6 capcom buttons lite up.  that'd be kickin!

[CitznFish]

Can't wait to see controls.dat up and running!  

I think they need a hand organizing/documenting some of the games (you know someone has to verify that "x" game uses "y" buttons for "z" functions)... so if you wanted to expedite it's being ready er something...

*Shrug*

rampy

PS I *think* they still need a hand, anyways...

info here somewhere http://www.fe.donkeyfly.com/

I absolutely would help but I don't have the following:

Cabinet or CP

All ROMS's

any Front End

I only have Mame32 because I just had to play a few levels of Joust that i found the other day...

[ErikRuud]

For my cab, I am already making altered screen shots that show the controls for each game.  These gat displyed in my fornt end (Game Launcher)

Example


I am already using .bat files to launch my games. This allows me to load custom key setups to my IPAC.

If I wanted to spend the money(and I probably will one of these days), I could by a serial I/O board to control the lights in the buttons. http://www.weedtech.com/wtdio-m.html

Paralell port circuits are already out there:
http://www.southwest.com.au/~jfuller/sio.html
http://www.southwest.com.au/~jfuller/sio5.html

[SirPoonga]

I absolutely would help but I don't have the following:

Cabinet or CP

All ROMS's

any Front End

You'd need those why?  There's tons of websites.

[SirPoonga]

ok, original idea of this thread.  Been discussed MANY times.

Basically it would be up to the FE, not mame.  you;d have to have a way to ouput to enough leds, you can output directly to 8 leds through lpt port but if you make a microcontroler then up to 256.

[CitznFish]

I absolutely would help but I don't have the following:

Cabinet or CP

All ROMS's

any Front End

You'd need those why?  There's tons of websites.

OK, I'm still new here so maybe I didn't understand what was needed. Tell me what I need to do and I'll help when I can.

[SirPoonga]

I absolutely would help but I don't have the following:

Cabinet or CP

All ROMS's

any Front End

You'd need those why?  There's tons of websites.

OK, I'm still new here so maybe I didn't understand what was needed. Tell me what I need to do and I'll help when I can.

If you want to help all the info is at http://fe.donkeyfly.com

[Beley]

.... you can output directly to 8 leds through lpt port but if you make a microcontroler then up to 256.

A minor correction here, there are acually 12 output lines on the parallel port, 8 data lines and 4 control lines. The control lines are addresed 2 higer then the datalines, ie parallel port is 0x378(datalines) then the control lines are 0x37A, and just for referance the address of the 5 input
lines on the parallel port is 0x379 ( or +1)

for the button illumination idea, you could use the 8 datalines to control the leds for each button and the control lines to control each set of leds per player since each player has the same number of buttons


EDIT:
here is a quick schematic of what i was trying to explain

[ErikRuud]

You are corrct that there are tweleve adressable lines on the paralell port, but setting up a matrix like that is not the most flexible design.

The problem with that idea is that I cannot turn on player1 button 1 and player2 button2, without turning on player1 button2 and player2 button1.

[SirPoonga]

You are corrct that there are tweleve adressable lines on the paralell port, but setting up a matrix like that is not the most flexible design.

The problem with that idea is that I cannot turn on player1 button 1 and player2 button2, without turning on player1 button2 and player2 button1.

Hence why I said a microcontroller would be best, but then I;d go the usb route.

[RandyT]

You are corrct that there are tweleve adressable lines on the paralell port, but setting up a matrix like that is not the most flexible design.

The problem with that idea is that I cannot turn on player1 button 1 and player2 button2, without turning on player1 button2 and player2 button1.

Actually this would work, but you would have to pulse each one in rapid succession.  The CPU would probably never have time to do much else and the LED brightness would be poor because of the short duty cycle.

Hence why I said a microcontroller would be best, but then I;d go the usb route.

This can be done.  The main question here is how many people would find something like this valuable, and what would be considered a reasonable cost for the controller?

An LED add-on board for the KeyWiz is in the design phase right now.  Just about anything could be implemented at this stage, so hit me with any LED related stuff you think has a "future" in your project.  Just keep in mind that more features usually equals more hardware, which equals more $$$.

Also, should emphasis be placed on ease of installation or cost?  All opinions will be noted and will probably affect the final configuration.

Thanks
RandyT

[SirPoonga]

An LED add-on board for the KeyWiz is in the design phase right now.  Just about anything could be implemented at this stage, so hit me with any LED related stuff you think has a "future" in your project.  Just keep in mind that more features usually equals more hardware, which equals more $$$.

Also, should emphasis be placed on ease of installation or cost?  All opinions will be noted and will probably affect the final configuration.

Thanks
RandyT

Actually it just need to control relays, not leds, to be more generic:)
Eitherway it will involve a custom build of mame, which I have no problem with.

Kelsey and I are working on a qbert knocker right now off the lpt port that uses a relay to trigger the solenoid.

You could trigger force feedback events for some games.

You could drive extra LEDs for some games.

The only thing is each of those would have to have their own dedicated relay incase someone has it all:)

[NIVO]

Heya RandyT, about your point of the cpu.....how about building a small board using old 33mhz cpu or something of the sort as a addon board driven by a 12volt plug from the power supply. A use for the old cpu's some of us have lying around. Sockets and cpus can be found still, could be useful to this idea. Just some "RandomDrivel" <cough> spinning through my noggin. <Shrug>(Rampy plug inserted here.)

[CitznFish]

Kelsey and I are working on a qbert knocker right now off the lpt port that uses a relay to trigger the solenoid.

Q-bert had knockers??? :giggle:

[SirPoonga]

At least he didn't have knickerbockers.

[Beley]

...The problem with that idea is that I cannot turn on player1 button 1 and player2 button2, without turning on player1 button2 and player2 button1.

I agreen that is design is not very flexable, however how many games use different controls for player 1 and 2-4, i cant think of any off of the top of my head( i am shure there are a couple )

Having said that, i made a different one anyhow, this one will give you control over each individual led using a 74ls373.  

Whats show is the circuit for a single playeror player 1, for player 2 the circuit would be duplicated exactly execpt C0 would be changed to C1, for player 3, C2 and so on.

as SirPoonga said a microcontroller would do the job easily, but i think a lot of people dont have the resources to program uC's

[SirPoonga]

you are still limited to 8 there.

I figure with a  microsontroller can control 256 relays (8 bits).

[Carsten Carlos]

I agreen that is design is not very flexable, however how many games use different controls for player 1 and 2-4, i cant think of any off of the top of my head( i am shure there are a couple )

This is an interesting point - I might have seven outputs left on my USB-interface. With 6 lines for buttons and one line to active the same buttons on 2up or not this might work. This would be an easy design and less expensive.

Would love to see that, but I think it is more suitable for those with a one-for-all controlpanel. Haven't tried yet, but I doubt I'd get my normal leaf-buttons lit, and I don't like the look of the translucent so much.

By the way, where is Cdbrown, he had this idea as he started at this board?

[cdbrown]

Carsten,

I had tried not to get too excited over this idea, but alas I have been sucked back in.  Have been carefully reading in hope of this coming to fruition (spelling?).  As you know (from the many PM's back and forth) I decided that it would be too hard for me, but now that I have the prototype panel, oscar's great little board for the numlock capslock thing it has reignited my desire for LED's under buttons.  

Now I'll have to go and get a few different LED's and try them out under the different buttons to see which will work best.  Maybe once I've done that we may have a solution for illuminating only necessary buttons.

Although, I really should just concentrate on designing the cab, can get uncomfortable hunched over sitting on the floor.

Cheers
-cdbrown

[ErikRuud]

Sir Poonga,

The new design would be repeated 4 times, so there would be 32 LEDS, but it still does not get around the matrix problem. If C0, C1, D0, and D1 are all on, you still get four lights.

I also am wondering which microcontroller gives you 255 output lines?  As far as I know, most of the cheaper ones don't have anywhere near that number of lines.

Beley,

Here is an example, If I wanted to setup Asteroids to have an authentic feel I would want to use only buttons.  On my panel I would probably use Player 1, Buttons 1 and 2 for left and right. Player 2, Buttons 1 and 2 would be thrust and fire. Player 2 Button 3 would be hyper space.  As soon as I try to turn on P2B3, then P1B# would also light up.

[SirPoonga]

Sir Poonga,

I also am wondering which microcontroller gives you 255 output lines?  As far as I know, most of the cheaper ones don't have anywhere near that number of lines.

See, this shows I don't hve electronic knowledge.
Anyway, there has to be something that can see the bit pattern of 8 data lines (giving you 256 unique patterns) and convert it to a relay.  I've seen projects that use the bit pattern from the lpt port, not indivudual data lines.  Heck, even a 20x2 text lcd converts the data from the lpt ass commands to do something.

[ErikRuud]

Sir Poonga,

There are decoder chips.  The simplest are 2x4 decoders.  But I don't think those would work well either.  You send the bit pattern to them for 0 to three and then one of the four output lines will turn on.  There is no way to turn on all four lines.

What is needed for more than a few functions is a microcontroller  that you send commands to. It could be paralell, serial or USB.  The boards by Weeder and others work that way.  I know that the Weeder boards are adressable so that they can be daiy chained to add more lines.  Then you send commands that tell a board to turn on ( or off) a particular relay.

[RandyT]

Heya RandyT, about your point of the cpu.....how about building a small board using old 33mhz cpu or something of the sort as a addon board driven by a 12volt plug from the power supply. A use for the old cpu's some of us have lying around. Sockets and cpus can be found still, could be useful to this idea. Just some "RandomDrivel" <cough> spinning through my noggin. <Shrug>(Rampy plug inserted here.)

Sounds good in theory. but those CPUs you have kicking around need a bunch of support electronics to be useful, such as ram, BIOS, storage medium, etc...

Microcontrollers are pretty much self-contained computers that usually have all the basics to run, but in only in minimal amounts, ie. limited RAM, I/O lines, EPROM or Flash storage, etc.

RandyT

[Beley]

...Here is an example, If I wanted to setup Asteroids to have an authentic feel I would want to use only buttons.  On my panel I would probably use Player 1, Buttons 1 and 2 for left and right. Player 2, Buttons 1 and 2 would be thrust and fire. Player 2 Button 3 would be hyper space.  As soon as I try to turn on P2B3, then P1B# would also light up.

incorrect,
I guess i should have explained that 2nd schematic a little better.  The 74ls373 "remembers" which les are susposed to be on regardless of what is on the datalines after you tell it what to output.

here is how it would work for your astroids example:

first output which leds you want on for player 1, in this case button 1 and 2, so output 11000000 ( 0xC0 hex or 192 decmil)

then pulse (turn on then off) the control line that is hooked up to the player 1 circuit ( C0 )

now output the player 2 leds on the datalines in this case 01100000 (0x60h, 96dec) and then pulse the control line hooked up to the player 2 circuit ( C1 ).  

the player 1 leds will remain the same resgardless of what is on the datalines as long as the control lines are left off (low)

if ive managed to explain that well enaugh you can see that you have individual control over each led for each player regardless of what leds are illuminated for the other players

as a side note,  you could put a 4x16 decoder on the control lines and attatch 16 of these circuits to the decoder you would have control over 128 leds

[ErikRuud]

Ahhh!!!

I did not realise that those chips were latching.

Then you do have a good setup there for upto eight buttons per player.  I might have to give it a try.

Thanks,

Erik Ruud

[SirPoonga]

as a side note,  you could put a 4x16 decoder on the control lines and attatch 16 of these circuits to the decoder you would have control over 128 leds

You mean relays, leds could be controller by relays, but with a relay you have more openess to custom hardware:)

[RandyT]

as a side note,  you could put a 4x16 decoder on the control lines and attatch 16 of these circuits to the decoder you would have control over 128 leds

You mean relays, leds could be controller by relays, but with a relay you have more openess to custom hardware:)

Relays....feh!

It's better to have an output capable of driving whatever you want( like a relay OR an LED), rather than using relays for driving LED's.  

Relays (other than solid state) are mechanical devices and can only cycle a limited number of times.  You probably wouldn't want something physically clicking away just to flash LEDs (unless you are trying to re-create early pinball machine nostalgia )

RandyT

[SirPoonga]

you still see my point.

[Beley]

...You mean relays, leds could be controller by relays, but with a relay you have more openess to custom hardware:)

you could control relays with that circuit, just use whatever voltage you need at the V+ point (12v,5v,whatever) and put the relays where the leds are in the schematic

[cdbrown]

While you guys are discussing how to get it all to work - I was thinking last night that it would be cool that when the cab was in attract mode the buttons could light up in certain sequences.  Just like when pinballs are waiting for players all the lights go on and off, like those running lights.  Thought it would be cool if you could get the lights to do a "mexican wave" across the panel    That'd be pretty sweet.

Now I'll let you guys work out the electronics and I'll get back in my box.

Cheers
-cdbrown

[ErikRuud]

CD Brown,

I have had that same thought.  It would probably require that the front end have programming to handle the LED controller, or you would need some sort of background task to handle the LEDS.


Of course, a microcontroller solution would be able to handle the attract mode on its own.

[Carsten Carlos]

Sounds pretty good to me, but somehow I wonder where it all will go.

We should set up the new forum "How to build your own pinball"?  

[ErikRuud]

I have seen at least one site where some one was building there own pinball machine.