Interesting article on Wii controllers

[Grasshopper]

To be honest I was a bit sceptical about the Wii's controllers but I've just read an article on the BBC site that has made me see the possibilities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4760473.stm

One issue that bothers me a bit is the fact that the controllers are not wireless so if you're not careful you could end up getting tangled up in wires.

[SirPoonga]

What are you talking about?  The controllers are wireless.
Goto gamespot.com.  Click e3.  Click live.  Goto tuesday and watch the nintendo coverage.  There wou will see many examples of the controller.

The only wire is between the wand and the nunchuk.  The nunchuk is an add on.  There's a port at the bottom of the wand to plug extras in. 

[Grasshopper]

What are you talking about?  The controllers are wireless.
Goto gamespot.com.  Click e3.  Click live.  Goto tuesday and watch the nintendo coverage.  There wou will see many examples of the controller.

The only wire is between the wand and the nunchuk.  The nunchuk is an add on.  There's a port at the bottom of the wand to plug extras in. 

OK even better then. I stand corrected but they definitely looked wired from the video on the BBC site.

[SirPoonga]

I just took a look at the video.  Yeah, I see tha tone is wired.  It's footage form E3 too and I didn't notice it.  It might be like the 360's play n charge kit where you can plug in the controller to charge it up but still play while charging.  Maybe at last minute they noticed the batteries were low on that.

But if you watch the E3 press conference they had a speepstakes for the first person to play a Wii game with the controller.  The winner got to play Tennis with the CEO and other Nintendo top management there.  They played 4 player on stage and everything was wireless.

[shmokes]

Early Wii controllers in the dev kits were wireless.  Maybe some of those made it to E3 due to a shortage of final hardware.

[Grasshopper]

Early Wii controllers in the dev kits were wireless.  Maybe some of those made it to E3 due to a shortage of final hardware.

So are you saying the final hardware will be wired?

[brophog]

No, I'm about 100% sure the final hardware is wireless.

[shmokes]

erm....i meant to say wired.  Early dev kits had wired controllers.  Sorry.

[SirPoonga]

Some E3 on the floor footage.
http://www.2old2play.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=281&mode=&order=0&thold=0

[RayB]

It would make sense for the E3 floor demo controllers to be WIRED, for any or all of the following possibilities:

1. Anti-theft. Having worked at E3 booths myself, I can atest that people steal anything that isn't chained or bolted down.

2. Due to the way the wireless technology works, I'd assume it's important to keep the controllers with the correct console. If they weren't tethered, it would be easy to mix em up .

3. Similar to #2, maybe its necessary to have them wired so that there's no "crossed" signals between consoles.

[Grasshopper]

Well I'm relieved that they do appear to be wireless after all. I think wireless is really essential given the nature of the controllers. However, it's a bit dumb of Nintendo to have the left and right hand controllers connected with a cord. Hopefully at some point they'll release updated controllers that are independently wireless.

I actually see what Nintendo is doing as a stop-gap. The next obvious step would be fully immersive gaming. Once the motion sensing technology has proven itself, I'm guessing it won't be long before we start seeing motion detecting VR headsets which would be awesome. They were of course tried many years ago and didn't catch on. But that was primarily because flat screen display technology at the time wasn't cheap enough or good enough to make the idea practical. In recent years display technology has progressed to the point where credible VR headsets could be build at a price affordable to consumers.

[Howard_Casto]

Well I'm relieved that they do appear to be wireless after all. I think wireless is really essential given the nature of the controllers. However, it's a bit dumb of Nintendo to have the left and right hand controllers connected with a cord. Hopefully at some point they'll release updated controllers that are independently wireless.

Actually it's not dumb, it's very smart.  If the add-ons were also wireless then they'd have to double the amount of ports on the console. They'd also have to put the "smart" guts in all the add-ons as well as the base unit making the add-ons larger, heavier and more expensive. Basically the cord takes what would be a 300 console and makes it less than 200 dollars.  Also it'd be quite easy for players to get their secondary controllers mixed up if they weren't connected.

I've also gotta ask... where have you been man?  They un-veiled  the wii controllers at LAST e3. 

Also vr isn't going to happen until they figure out how to do it without a headset.  Vr goggles, even in this day, are only good for hurting your neck and making you walk into things. 

[Grasshopper]

Actually it's not dumb, it's very smart.  If the add-ons were also wireless then they'd have to double the amount of ports on the console. They'd also have to put the "smart" guts in all the add-ons as well as the base unit making the add-ons larger, heavier and more expensive. Basically the cord takes what would be a 300 console and makes it less than 200 dollars.  Also it'd be quite easy for players to get their secondary controllers mixed up if they weren't connected. 

Well cost is almost always a factor in any manufacturing decision. That's kind of stating the obvious. But $100? Give me a break. The savings are more likely to be in the region of $10 - $20.

The success or failure of this console essentially hinges on how effective the controllers are. That's why I don't think Nintendo should have compromised in this area. I'd certainly be prepared to pay a premium for a fully wired solution.

That being said, there is another fairly good reason why Nintendo might have chosen to join the two controllers with a lead. It means there is one less set of rechargeable batteries to worry about.

Incidentally, does anyone know how these things are going to be recharged? Hopefully, as with the X-Box 360, it will be possible to make the controllers temporarily wired (but still usable) whilst they recharge.

[MajorLag]

Almost certainly the most important reason for attaching the add-ons physically is that it dramatically reduces the cost of the add-on. Nintendo's idea is that if the add-on is cheap to produce then companies can include it with the game for very little (or no) extra cost. Take the nunchuck for instance, its basically just 2 switches and 2 pots. If it also had to have its own radio and batteries it would be alot more expensive to produce. This is not to mention all the extra problems asasociated with doubling the number of signals.

[Grasshopper]

Almost certainly the most important reason for attaching the add-ons physically is that it dramatically reduces the cost of the add-on. Nintendo's idea is that if the add-on is cheap to produce then companies can include it with the game for very little (or no) extra cost. Take the nunchuck for instance, its basically just 2 switches and 2 pots. If it also had to have its own radio and batteries it would be alot more expensive to produce. This is not to mention all the extra problems asasociated with doubling the number of signals.

Well from what I've been reading the nunchuk also has motion detectors built in so it's a bit more than two pots and two switches. I also think it would have been dirt cheap to have included a radio circuit as the controllers use standard bluetooth technology. However, I agree that the need for separate batteries might have been a deal-breaker.

[MajorLag]

I've never read anything that suggested the nunchuck had any motion detection ability, and in fact IGN used the words "The nunchuck unit is merely an analog stick with two triggers" in one article.

[shmokes]

IGN said that prior to this years E3.  It was confirmed just days ago that both the remote and the nunchuck are motion-sensing.  I've seen it in action.  You open doors in Red Steel by thrusting your hand forward with the nunchuck controller, and in Zelda: Twilight Princess you can reel in the fishing line by rotating the nunchuck like you would a fishing reel.  Fact, not speculation.

[MajorLag]

Huh. Alrighty then.

[SirPoonga]

Well, you just need to watch the E3 press conference to know the nunchuk has motion sensing too.

[Howard_Casto]

It's still cheaper to make a "dumb" controller with just switches and sensors rather than a "smart" one with the circuitry to serialize the data and send it wirelessly. 

And no, I wasn't exaggerating... the bulk of the cost for the wii system is the controllers and sensors/transmitters, this is why they used less powerful system, because at this point, that part of the technology is almost free compared to the controllers.  A gyro-mouse for the pc (which is essentially using the same technology) costs around 100 bucks.  Assuming that the nintendo version is considerably cheaper to make the tech in the base controllers is still going to cost 5-10 bucks a pop and the extra ports are gonna cost the same.  With 4 players and 4 ports that's around 80 bucks.... almost half the cost of the unit.  If each accessory had it's own port, that's 8 ports and essentially 8 controllers, making the cost jump another 80 bucks.  Throw in around 20 bucks for added development costs and such and it'd cost nintendo around 100 bucks to make each accessory have it's own signal. 



Also form factor is a MAJOR consideration.  My guess is the reason the wii controller base unit is so long is to fit the ir tramsmitter and the pcb to run it.  Notice how small the analog portion of the num-chuck configuration is. It'd be impossible to make it that compact without the base unit doing all of the heavy lifting. 


Like I said, wise choice by nintendo to keep sub-accessories corded. 

[Grasshopper]

Heh, well you've moved the goalposts a bit by assuming four sets of controllers in your calculations. There's no way that Nintendo is going to include four pairs of controllers in their standard $200 bundle. (actually it wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo tries to push the price up a bit now they know how expensive the opposition is going to be, but I digress)

But even taking that into account I'm still not finding your figures even remotely plausible. You have to appreciate the economics of manufacturing electronic devices. The vast bulk of the overall costs go towards research & design, marketing, and distribution. Once a production line has been set up in some Chinese sweat-shop the costs of making the actual physical devices is a pittance. It wouldn't have cost Nintendo significantly more to have come up with fully wireless controllers.

Also, where are you getting the idea that the base unit would require an additional four ports? A standard bluetooth hub supports up to seven wireless devices, so assuming Nintendo can't work around that limitation, only one extra hub would be required. And remember, this is cheap off-the-shelf technology. Even Jakks is now selling wireless plug & play games.

So why the cord? I can only really speculate. Perhaps Nintendo decided that people would prefer the hassle of a cord over the hassle of having to charge two separate sets of batteries per player in order to play games. Perhaps, as you mention, form factor was an issue. Maybe there is another technical reason we just don't know about. But whatever the reason (or reasons), I'm convinced that Nintendo's decision was based on design considerations rather than cost.

[shmokes]

One such design consideration would be keeping the right nunchuck associated with the right Wiimote.  Aside from the logistics of it, e.g., we all take a break from playing and when we return we've got eight identical controllers to match up correctly, it also creates four more distinct wireless signals floating through the air in close proximity, so maybe interference would be an issue.  I don't know.  I'm just speculating as a lay person.

[Howard_Casto]

Nintendo literally just aquired a company to improve the wii remote's functionality. The tech in the final revision will be brand spankin new and exclusively built for nintendo.  So it's gonna cost bunches. 

So believe me, even if it isn't directly on the circuit level, cost was the deciding factor. 

And yes a bluetooth hub can handle 7 devices.  A bluetooth hub also can cost upwards of 100 bucks to the consumer with bluetooth accessories costing 60-100 bucks a pop. 

(bluetooth, imho is a obscure piece of crap, along the likes of the sony mini disc that is only used by rich white dudes with too much money on their hands, but that has nothing to do with this conversation so just ignore it  )

Obviously nintendo is using a more primitative technology to keep costs down to the consumer.