I would like some advice/input/thoughts/mounds of cash...

[lharles]

...well, not mounds of cash.  I'd like that, generally, but I'm not really asking anyone here for that. 

Anyway, I'll try to minimize my babbling, (it's an affliction), and get to the point.

I have a preliminary design for my control panel 'top'.



LINK:
"http://static.flickr.com/49/132217131_69d1392f26_o.jpg"

Just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts about the layout of the major controls on there.  I know they're not labeled but I think the top half of the picture is an effective illustration of what is on there.

With a huge effort, I'm restraining myself from writing a 245 page description of what I've done so far, why the thing is so big, and so on...

I swear, in the end, it'll at least make sense to me. 

Thanks in advance...

Lharles

[destructor]

I'm interesting how you want to press upper buttons, even if these are start buttons. You want to lie down on panel? Left and right joysticks looks as for players 3 and 4 that will be stand at the right side of the panel, but what this player (3 or 4) will see on the monitor? In center of panel I see topfire joystick. 1 topfire joystick? I think best is 2 topfire joysticks (or trigger joysticks) for 2-hand games. For spinner I think 2 buttons for every side of spinner are better than 1. The same for trackballs. 2 or 3 buttons for every trackball side. In your panel middle button over trackball is useless.

[BobA]

I'd mock it up on a piece of cardboard to see what is comfortable for you to reach and what will get in the way.

[PCtech]

hmmm...can't see the pic, or get to the link (probably websense problem @ work)

But from what I can see (absolutely nothing) looks pretty good! 

[unclet]

I am assuming the joystick farthest to the left is the player3 joystick and the one farthest to the right is for player4.   I am also assuming when you have player3 and player4 using your cab, then the trackballs will not be used for any gameplay.   

If so, then I would recommend moving player3's buttons down and to the right a bit.  You can then move player3's joystick down some as well which will result in the joystick not being on top of the buttons anymore.  It will also allow player3 the ability to see the monitor better since player3 will be standing more at the corner of your cabinet rather than at the left side at a 90degree angle.   I would also recommend you do something similar to player4's joystick buttons (ie: moving player4 joystick to the left some and bringing the 4 buttons down lower a bit).

After moving the joysticks for player3 and player4 around a bit, it seems like you might even be able to reduce the depth (front to back) of your control panel.    Seems like a lot of wasted space just to have 4 buttons on the top left and top right of the panel.  seems like these buttons can be move lower  somewhere and then reduce the size.    I can hardly make out anything on your pictures so I am assuming the depth of your control panel is 24inches right now ... which seems a bit deep to me.   I have a 4player control panel and I believe my depth is 18 inches.

Do you need three mouse buttons for each trackball?  I would recommend two each (unless you really think you need them), then move the buttons for the left trackball to be on the right side of the trackball instead of on top of it and move the right trackball buttons to the left side of the trackball.   This would save you more room for player3 and player4 joysticks as well.

Since you like buttons a lot, have you decided to put in some left/right flipper buttons and a plunger button for pinball games (ie: VisualPinball, FuturePinball, etc..)?

I am assuming you have some "Coin Up" buttons on the top of your control panel as well.  You could move these buttons to be located on the vertical front face of your control panel ... not on the control panel top (like you currently show them).   This would save you more room on the top of your control panel as well......

hety ..... you asked for opinions right ..... 

[lharles]

PCtech...you rule. 

destructor...I don't want to 'lie down on' the panel...although I probably could.    What isn't shown on that picture is the cut outs to accomodate the cabinet walls of the cabinet it's going into.  I'm planning on rounding the edges too.  As for the two joystick games, I was thinking that I'd set the inputs on those particular games to use the 1 player AND 2 player joysticks, as they're in fairly close proximity.  As for the trackball buttons, I was thinking of it as being for both game use and 'mouse' functionality.  Three buttons seemed reasonable.  ? 

BobA...I'm actually planning to mock it up, but with styrofoam instead of cardboard.    Snowy goodness!

unclet...Yes, the farthest to the left is player 3 and the farthest right is player 4.  The trackballs would not be used in a scenario where player 3 and/or 4 are playing.  You've addressed my biggest concern in the whole thing, where to place players 3 and 4. 

As for the pictures, I don't know why they seem so difficult to see.  ?  I placed a direct link to the large version of it to get a better idea, it's under the image itself...the link that is.



Thanks for the advice/thoughts!

[unclet]

I clicked on the link and I only get a very slightly larger photo than what is displayed in this post ..... oh well.

Hey, check my post above since I added a couple more ideas .....

Also, here is a picture of what I meant ..... even though you did not ask for one 

[MikeT]

Not trying to be negative here but having just finished a 4 player CP I can say this one looks a little over the top. I spent almost $900 on mine, and you have some big costs there. The trackballs are at best $100 each with shipping, tax, and mounting plates. I also got much of my stuff wholesale from Happ. If you can't get them on Ebay then you are looking at about $170+ each. I did add about 120 LEDS and a LEDWIZ but that was less than $120.

I wouldn't go more than 18" - 19" deep and 42" wide. More than that and it's too heavy and wide. Plus the 3 and 4 player won't be able to see the TV.

One other thing to consider is that player 1 and 2 should be at least 18" apart and more like 20" for a comfortable playing experience.

I would also consider making your 4 ways on a raised level so you can play them without the 8 ways getting in the way.

Don't put any buttons above the joysticks. That would be really hard to play.

Please mock this up - I think you may be surprised at the difficulty to play it with the odd button placement.

[lharles]

First of all, good morning!  At least it's morning where I am.  Always nice to be working in a server farm at 2 in the am...ugh.

Anyway,  unclet, thanks for that new image.  That is pretty enlightening.  I think I will make use of it. 

I wish I had a more effective way to describe why the depth of this thing is the way it is.  I'll take a picture of it and post it so you can get an idea where I'm at, at this point.  However, I will be reducing the depth of it and changing the config of the buttons around the trackballs, as well as changing the orientation of the 3 and 4 player setups...thanks to your expert advice. 

MikeT, I'm with ya' on the cost.  I've actually been collecting parts from various sources for about six months now.  I've got approximately 40 buttons, two 3" trackballs, (and a third for parts - got all three of them for $40...WOOT!), 3 spinners, (an original 'Tempest' spinner and what is apparently a 'Mad Planets' spinner), somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 joysticks, (no kidding - I bought a 'lot' of parts on evilBay and wound up with a whole gaggle o' functional joysticks), two mini-pacs...and on and on...

Considering that I'm not very good at the carpentry aspect, (as I've babbled on endlessly about on the 'Everything Else' board ), I'm reluctant to try and build the raised pieces.  It did occur to me though.

As for the buttons above the joysticks, those were originally supposed to signify the 1-4 start buttons and coin buttons.  I think with unclet's help I've changed my mind about that piece.

Thanks again for all the help and advice so far!

Lharles

[lettuce]

lharles, what prog is that us used to design your CP? Also you might want to move P1&2's controls up more, theres nothing worse that your wrists leaning right on the edge of the CP when playing, which i fear will happen where you have yours placed at the moment, you want them at least 4 1/2 inches up from the bottom of the CP (thats measure from the middle of the lower set of buttons to the edge of the CP)

[unclet]

When it came to cost for me ..... I decided money was not the main issue since once I built my cabinet I knew my kids and I (and friends) would be playing games for many many many years.   I would think I would have my cabinet until I retire (if not longer).   Anyway, over 30 to 40 years ... what is the difference if you spend an additional 100, 200 or even 500 dollars to do the project right?   Now, if you are trying to cut costs then that is someting else .... but if you are going to make this cabinet for you to keep pretty much forever (and you can afford to do so at the present time) then I would invest some money to get good parts so you would know it lasts and does not look like you are using cheap parts which you acauired over the years...

As for your control panel layout, I do agree with the P1 and P2 joysticks being too close to the front edge.  Resting you wrists on the control panel is nice.  With the design I submitted there is still room to simply shift P1/P2 joysticks and buttons up some no problem.

As for the depth an width of your control panel top ......  I agree (a bit) and disagree.   
I agree the depth should be between 18 and 20 inches (mine is 19" inches and it works great) however, I would disagree you should make it smaller due to the "weight" .... since once the control panel is mounted on the cabinet who cares about the weight.  The cabinet will be able to hold it and not cause any trouble at all.  I also disagree about the width a bit.....  My control panel is 56" wide and actually looks great in my opinion and player 3 and 4 can see the TV no problem at all.  The factors to consider here is how big is your TV/Monitor going to be and how much floor space will you have for your cabinet.  If you are using a small TV then a wide control panel would not look right.....  not enough floor space is an obviously problem for a big cab.

You can check my 4-player cabinet out here if you need some ideas:

http://unclet.arcadecontrols.com/

[CheffoJeffo]

The trackballs are at best $100 each with shipping, tax, and mounting plates. I also got much of my stuff wholesale from Happ. If you can't get them on Ebay then you are looking at about $170+ each.

This confused me ... you got wholesale prices from Happ (are you a reseller?), but your *best* price for trackballs is $100 ea?

Expected cost of $170 applies to what ?

Not trying to be a pain, just confused ... are you actually getting wholesale prices, or are you just ordering from Happs ?

Cheers.

[MikeT]

The trackballs are at best $100 each with shipping, tax, and mounting plates. I also got much of my stuff wholesale from Happ. If you can't get them on Ebay then you are looking at about $170+ each.

This confused me ... you got wholesale prices from Happ (are you a reseller?), but your *best* price for trackballs is $100 ea?

Expected cost of $170 applies to what ?

I got a new Happ 3" trackball off ebay for $70 and the mounting plate from Happ for $12 - with shipping and such that was about $100. New 3" Happ trackballs from Happ are $153 maybe more, and that doesn't include the mounting plate.

As for the wholesale stuff I am not a reseller but I was able to get Happ to give me wholesale prices so I got all my buttons with MS's for $1 each and joysticks for $5 each. Other misc things were also much much cheaper like T-molding (and my bezel). Seems like the deal I worked out with them was for between 40 and 50% off their items.

It really helped out.

Mike

[CheffoJeffo]

I got a new Happ 3" trackball off ebay for $70 and the mounting plate from Happ for $12 - with shipping and such that was about $100. New 3" Happ trackballs from Happ are $153 maybe more, and that doesn't include the mounting plate.

As for the wholesale stuff I am not a reseller but I was able to get Happ to give me wholesale prices so I got all my buttons with MS's for $1 each and joysticks for $5 each. Other misc things were also much much cheaper like T-molding (and my bezel). Seems like the deal I worked out with them was for between 40 and 50% off their items.

Thanks for the clarification -- that makes more sense to me now.

FWIW, the $153 is for a 3" trackball with PS2/USB encoder. Happs charges you nearly $60 for the encoder (as opposed to, say, $15 for an OptiWiz or $25 for the same Happs encoder from someone other than Happs). Also, the $96 trackball price tag from Happs is a bit high as well ... look to a reseller rather than ordering from Happs (I got mine for C$65 each, NIB).

Please understand that I'm not trying to beat you down on this (especially since you managed to get great prices out of Happs, which I haven't heard of before!), just pointing out less expensive alternatives on big ticket items for those who may be reading.

Cheers.

[lharles]

PICS:

From the front of the box with the preliminary build of the 'box' that will sit under the control panel 'top' - sitting in the space it will eventually occupy.



From the front of the box with the preliminary build of the 'box' that will sit under the control panel 'top' - looking at the left hand side, from the right.



From the front of the box with the preliminary build of the 'box' that will sit under the control panel 'top' - looking at the right hand side, from the left.



The beast on my dirty, cluttered, pseudo-workbench - formerly known as a kitchen counter.



"Special torture!"

[deadkenndys1105]

Ok that control pannel is about the same size as a 6 player x-men cabnet.  That thing is just ways to big.  I wouldnt be serpised if the cabnet fell down because of all the wight in the front.  Also it looks like you have to crawl under the CP just to get to the coin door.

[lharles]

Ok that control pannel is about the same size as a 6 player x-men cabnet.  That thing is just ways to big.  I wouldnt be serpised if the cabnet fell down because of all the wight in the front.  Also it looks like you have to crawl under the CP just to get to the coin door.

 

Well, okay then.

The box is 45.5" wide and will be 22" deep.  I don't think that the weight will topple the cabinet but I'm not that kind of engineer. 

10" of the depth is taken up by the part that slides into the existing frame...

As for crawling under to get to the coin door...well, I hadn't thought of that.

[deadkenndys1105]

If you wanted to keep the control panel like it is just build something like this around it. It might look kinda funny tho.  What you could do it make diffrent pannels that you could slide into place.  It would be like having diffrent control pannels because this one is way to clutered.

[lettuce]

Wooooo, image building a cab that size, with dual monitor setup, now thats got me thinking 

[lharles]

Prototype pic:



And a link to the pic on Flickr...since they never seem to show well in my posts. Link to pic...

Sadly, I got one shot of the thing before the digi-cam went to electronics heaven.  Ah, well.

Please disregard the random color placement of the buttons...I'd been drinking. 

Completion seems so close!  ...and has since November of last year!  WOOT!

[Mark70]

You can only loose by trying to make the everything in one panel.... panel.

For example, two trackballs is an extraordinary expense just to play dual marble madness.  In my experience marble madness is far too difficult by design to be enjoyable anyhow.  I compare it to the C64 title gyroscope, which was wonderful.  but I digress.

For the cost of a sheet of MDF, youw ould be better to make more than one cabinet, or a cabinet with changeable control panels (since more than one cabinet has cost implications in a monitor and takes up more space).  There is a fantastic topic here somewhere where a guy has used a printer connector to make interchangable control panels.  simply the best multiple control solution I've seen here as far as functionality and simplicity of build.

This is all just my opinion and about four beers talking of course, but the everything panel ends up just looking silly and isn't functional.  Think ergonomics.  How long will your guests want to play a fighting game tourney if their capel tunnels start hurting after 10 mins? or if they keep scraping their forearm on a spinner while trying to execute that finishing move?

[Mark70]

Damn if I can't find it.  It was a topic where a guy was trying to use cel phone contacts to make swapable control panels and someone else responded with what he did, which was use a 37 pin connector or a serial connector of some kind.  It was all set up where there were pieces of wood on the control panel to guide the connectors together etc...

If anyone else can remember which topic that was please link it.... I can't think of anything more specific to search and the forums are being really slow and frustrating right now.

[Mark70]

Oh and constructively:

the right side trackball user will constsantly be banging into the four player stick.  You may want to aim the top of the trackballs in at 45 degrees, or whatever angle gives the most room.

I thought I had lots of room in front of my track ball and everyone is still knuckling the glass while playing golden tee.

[lharles]

SO, here come the pictures...but before that, a little narrative.

Player 3 and 4 have Wico Leaf Switch Joysticks, (part of the 'lot' of joysticks that I got from the evilBay for $20), player 1 and 2 have top fires, player 1 trackball is black, player 2 is white, two 'Mad Planets' spinners with dials/knobs...from 'Radio Shack', (oh, I am ashamed...  ).  Then there are a bunch o' buttons.

The covering is the textured vinyl from 'Parts Express' and it worked well.  I decided to cover the, er, inaccuracies of my newbie routing with 'poster board' as suggested by some person in some thread here...the result of which is the sort of odd, mystery outline in the picture taken from above.

I'm planning on adding some directional artwork to the control panel as well as to the sides of the cabinet...please feel free to ridicule me now.  After a lifetime of this sort of thing, I'm used to it.  Just be sure to use smileys so that I don't become sad and morose inside. 

PICS:

[DaveMMR]

For example, two trackballs is an extraordinary expense just to play dual marble madness.  In my experience marble madness is far too difficult by design to be enjoyable anyhow.  I compare it to the C64 title gyroscope, which was wonderful.  but I digress.

Balderdash!  Marble Madness is completely worth the price of "two trackball" admission (especially if you're savy and find used, cheap ones on eBay).  And if you're not crazy about the difficulty, you can always change the settings.  I'm bias since that was the game that got me wanting my own cab, but I still think you can't go wrong having a little MM tourney every now and again.  Plus it works great for Cabal and that unreleased Atari Centipede/Missle Command 2-player simo remake I forgot the proper name of....

However, I do agree that 2-player MM is not worth the CP real estate.  If you're doing 2 TBs, you need to start looking at swappable panels.  I'm actually planning two seperate panels of trackballs: 1 with a single trackball ala Centipede and another with the dual set-up (though that's down the road).  Yes, it is slightly ridiculous.  No, I'm not going modular.  Hey, for me, having a dedicated MM panel is well worth the hassle and needless expense.

Back to the panel:

So, um, that's a pretty big panel.  It could almost double as a dining room table.      

Iharles, not trying to be funny, but maybe you should look into putting an anchor into the wall to keep the cab from falling forward.  Maybe just screw that puppy into the wall directly for safety's sake.  The panel itself probably won't take the cab down.  However, someone leaning on it to reach the back might.  That whole science thingee of levers and fulcrums and such comes into play here somehow.   

BTW I'm basing this on pictures - it may be perfectly safe in real life.  I am not an engineer.  Just looks a tad dangerous from where I'm sitting.

EDIT: I just reread your post - so you were the guy who beat me out of the "trackball lot" on eBay, huh?

[lharles]

For example, two trackballs is an extraordinary expense just to play dual marble madness.  In my experience marble madness is far too difficult by design to be enjoyable anyhow.  I compare it to the C64 title gyroscope, which was wonderful.  but I digress.

Balderdash!  Marble Madness is completely worth the price of "two trackball" admission (especially if you're savy and find used, cheap ones on eBay).  And if you're not crazy about the difficulty, you can always change the settings.  I'm bias since that was the game that got me wanting my own cab, but I still think you can't go wrong having a little MM tourney every now and again.  Plus it works great for Cabal and that unreleased Atari Centipede/Missle Command 2-player simo remake I forgot the proper name of....

However, I do agree that 2-player MM is not worth the CP real estate.  If you're doing 2 TBs, you need to start looking at swappable panels.  I'm actually planning two seperate panels of trackballs: 1 with a single trackball ala Centipede and another with the dual set-up (though that's down the road).  Yes, it is slightly ridiculous.  No, I'm not going modular.  Hey, for me, having a dedicated MM panel is well worth the hassle and needless expense.

Back to the panel:

So, um, that's a pretty big panel.  It could almost double as a dining room table.      

Iharles, not trying to be funny, but maybe you should look into putting an anchor into the wall to keep the cab from falling forward.  Maybe just screw that puppy into the wall directly for safety's sake.  The panel itself probably won't take the cab down.  However, someone leaning on it to reach the back might.  That whole science thingee of levers and fulcrums and such comes into play here somehow.   

BTW I'm basing this on pictures - it may be perfectly safe in real life.  I am not an engineer.  Just looks a tad dangerous from where I'm sitting.

EDIT: I just reread your post - so you were the guy who beat me out of the "trackball lot" on eBay, huh?

LOL!  I literally JUST finished playin' Marble Madness on the new control panel.  Good times.

While it may have the appearance of being likely to topple, (although I don't see that - but I'm biased), it won't...trust me.    I actually tried to knock it over from the back and the sides...by running into it at a slow jog.    My kids found that quite amusing...watching Dad launch himself at 'the game', (as they call it - never having owned a 'console' they have no idea what they're NOT playing...such as XBox, PS2, etc).

Anyway, it won't fall over, unless there's an earthquake...and at that point I won't be concerning myself with the MAME cabinet. 

To be honest, the thing that bothers me the most at this point is the lack of 'art' on the control panel and sides.  SO much black...it's, er, depressing.

Unless you're into that sort of thing...not that there's anything wrong with that. 

My oldest daughter and I played 'Marble Madness' and 'Cabal' a bit earlier...good times.  Who knew that I could miss trackballs so much.   

[DaveMMR]

I rigged up my trackball in a hasty manner to my Optipac that was lying very irresponsibly on the desk and spent a good two hours "testing" it with Marble Madness and Centipede.  I would have to say that's it been about 20 years since I've played Marble Madness properly.

But if your control panel and cabinet are sturdy and it's comfortable to play with - then "game on".   

[Brewser]

I just finished redoing my 2nd CP. I originally purchased the SlikStik CO blank CP to add my own stuff. I purchased a spinner and put that above the trackball on the top next to the 4 way stick and asteroids buttons. I also used the same top button joysticks you have for your player 1 & 2 sticks (or maybe that is player 2&3 or 3&4..not sure). I used the sticks for the 2nd of both dual sticks. I used the 49 ways for the first of each dual stick setup.
What I found - I kept on smacking my finger into the spinner even though it is about 7-8" away playing golden tee. The top fire sticks really suck and are uncomfortable. The 49 way stick on the right had to be mounted upside down since the connector wouldn't fit in the CP to the left.
I just purchased another SlikStik CO blank to change things around and got rid of the top fire sticks and moved my 2 - 49way to the right for both dual sticks and used 2 - Happs 8 way competition for the left side dual sticks. I moved the spinner above the 3 buttons to the right of the trackball since there was extra room and put only one button to the right of the spinner.
After almost a year I felt this would be a better setup and it cost me an additional $220 to make the change.
What I am getting at is 2 things:
1. play with your setup for awhile and you will find things that you probably wished you would have done origianally.
2. A couple observations - You will want to replace those top fire button sticks. The left spinner has no button to the right of it (unless you like to use your right hand) and you will probably hit the buttons below (basically uncomfortable). The trackballs will be an issue with the joysticks above. You have so much wasted space in the middle of the CP that you could possibly move the trackballs to the middle and move the spinners to the top.
Just some thoughts.

[lharles]

Well, first of all...thanks for the response, Brewser. 

In relation to smackin' fingers and the such on the joysticks above the trackballs and/or hittin' the spinners, I tried hard to make sure this wouldn't happen.

On the prototype picture I posted earlier, you can actually see the angle I used that I measured based on the 'test' use of the trackballs.  Basically, I tried to act as if I was REALLY rollin' that sucker so that I could see where I would hit.   I wound up with something that seems fairly reasonable.    In terms of the spinners, I definitely see room for improvement already.  The buttons that are next to the trackballs work as controls for the spinners if necessary but the configuration isn't as effective as I had hoped. 

In relation to the things you were getting at:

1.  Amen.  I'm definitely going to have to use this for a while and figure out what will most likely work better. 

2.  The 'top fire button sticks'.  Yeah, I haven't really even TRIED to put them to use yet.  I'm not sure if I'll keep em' or not...but there's issue #1 that you referenced to consider...I'll have to try it for a while and see.  Spinner button config - I'm with you on that.  Definitely wish I'd done that differently already. 

As for the issue of:  "You have so much wasted space in the middle of the CP that you could possibly move the trackballs to the middle and move the spinners to the top."

Being a VERY amateur carpenter was part of the cause of this.  Along with that was attaching the control panel to the existing cabinet.  If I'd had some help or a bit more experience/knowledge I probably could have done a more effective job minimizing the space used...

[Havok]

Looks great, except it appears you have bolted on three or four control panels onto one cabinet: I would build out the base a little to compensate for the obvious proportion difference. You built it though, so enjoy it - just my constructive criticism...