New CP design, trawling for some opinions

[Dak-ak]

rebuilding a TMNT cab (that had been ghetto-rigged into a D&D: ToD cab) into a four-player setup... I did some basic drawings in autocad of two outlays, converted one to XSI, and did a few 3d drawings.

1st:  with a 4 player setup, do i orientate the joysticks so they are square with the player, or with the screen?  In the present cab, they are orientated square with the screen.  To me, it seems more sensible to orientate them so that they are square with the player (on the outside players at least) the player should be standing at an angle to the screen.  Perhaps someone who has spent more time clutching a jstick can give me a hint.

2nd:  Does everyone think i should angle the buttons:

or keep them straight:


Here are some 3d shots of the angled board:




Here is a finished 3d image.  The colored buttons are all player buttons, the finished product will more than likely have 1 of each color (so that you can simply say "press the blue button") but this image suffices.  The white buttons are the 4 start buttons, and the red button would be a dedicated shift button.  The black ones would be dedicated control buttons (6 when you include shift)


If anyones curious to see where I plan on putting the CP, check out http://www.ptialaska.net/~tagge/arcade%20machine/
http://
Thanks,
Dak

[Xiaou2]

 Theres a few things to consider...

   First - make the 6 button setup alligned.  While it seems like it woulld be better to match the
lengths of the fingers... its not.   I tried it that way, and ruined a panel.   You naturally pull the middle finger in a tad... much like how you type on the keyboard.  The other way feels like a strain, and is both uncomfortable and confusing.

  Next... the 2 end people would have trouble feeling confortable at an angle like that... because the panel dosnt match thier angle - and they would have trouble figuring out which way was up.  Also,  there would be no place to really rest thier arms... that and the corner digging into thier bellies.

  If you make the corners diagnol... it might help...   However... that means you cant use the sticks for Dual joystick games in 2 player simultainious games - not that I know more than one of them offhand.

  In my panel, I put buttons almost under the sticks... this makes the wrist of the hands closer together, and takes up less space.  However, its still probably wider than most panels, and still not sure how comfortable 4 players would be with it.  Guess it also depends on the width of the players! : )  heh

  You could also go the route of having the 2 extra players control the games with plug in
side- gamepads as well.

  Ohh - and dont forget where the wrist rest.  The right players wrist might end up interfereing with the left players buttons.

 

 (my 4 player buttons are a tad (maybe 1/2")  bit far too under the joystick tho)


  Good Luck  ^_^

   

[Dr. J]

1.  My brothers and I are still arguing over this.  My opinion Was that the joysticks should be angled to the screen because when you press up your character moves that direction.  If you set them at a 45 degree angle then the characters movement doesn't match.  
     However, I rotated it at my brothers insistance to see what it would be like.  It felt much more natural to him, and after a little bit I liked it better too.  Here's why.  If you're testing it out just yourself then you tend to square yourself off with the screen anyway, so you may as well be on one of the center controls.  But if you test it with 4 people playing you can't nudge your buddy over far enough to make it feel like that.  4 people force you at an angle to comfortably view the screen, and then the 45 degree controls feel more natural.  
     If you want to test it out before drilling holes, a simple way is to use wood screws to hold the joysticks on from the bottom temporarily.  It's plenty strong enough to hold.  I have mine attached like that permenantly and I tested it with my full weight.  Just make sure the screws don't pop out the top.  Then get 3 friends and see which you like better.  
2.  I personally like the buttons straight better, but there are others that would argue the angled approach.  My reasoning is that the Capcom games in the arcade typically aren't angled, and so mine wouldn't be either.  

Other opinions:  I would set the outside players a little further from the center players.  There's nothing quite as ackward as feeling your friends big, hairy, sweaty hand pressing up against yours while playing.  Also, I would cut the corners at an angle so the corner's not stabbing someone.  That's what I did (click the banner if you want to check it out).

[cdbrown]

Dak-ak,

Check out my layout - I went through this dilema and have settled on the joysticks all having the same orientation.  This is the way the nba jams and such are.  To save on some room I have put player 3 joystick above the buttons and player 4 joystick below the buttons (like nba jams).  I haven't tried it out with 4 people (as it is just sitting on the floor in front of the tv) so I don't know how comfortable it will be but it is bigger than an nba jam panel and I remember playing them alot with 3 other people with little problems so I figure it must be alright.

Good designs, I wish I knew how to use cad or other modelling packages.  Pencil, paper and scale rule for me  

Cheers
-cdbrown

[Dak-ak]

thanks, i did these during 3d animation class... luckily my school saw fit to invest in a computer lab full of nice dells and top-of-the-line software (and a top of the line teacher to boot!)

one reason i was hoping to keep the general shape of the CP is because it "looks right" on that cab...  Ive played through the stock game several times with 4 people and never felt that it was crowded at all, or that my stomach was being jabbed... its 36-3/4" wide... fairly big...

there was an nba jam cab next to this one at the place i got it, and i got the impression that it was a bit smaller...  I feel that mine will be comfortable enough without beveled corners...
but then again, im not sure... i was considering rebuilding the entire cp section (the bottom sides along with the top panel) so i can make it a bit taller to accomadate a keyboard tray, but im not sure.... so many ways to do it :-)

tell the truth, Dr. J's cab is just about the same as i want mine to be (actually, everything i see in my head has been incorporated into his design, even the audio)  Nice job!  I just don't want to expand the CP if i can help it.  (btw, the cup holders are an excellent addition.. something i am going to have to consider!)

~Dak~

[Frostillicus]

my first attempt at a cp was 4-player(I showed a pic to some folks in the chat room recently and we all had a laugh at the monstrosity   )  i discovered some things from actually building it though:

A. you need much more room than your 3d model shows for the space between the players.  player 2's wrist is almost colliding with player 1's buttons.  Do you really want to be squeezed into such a tiny space with 4 other guys? (especially if you're player 1 or 2)

B. Think about what games you want to play - there are only so many 4 player games out there.  simpsons, tmnt, gauntlet, what else? a few more, maybe but not worth it IMO to build a huge CP.   The dual joystick idea is nice(for smash TV and such) but they have to be oriented the same way to feel right, which would make the 4-player experience less-than-stellar.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm raining on a parade,  I don't want to sound really critical, but try experimenting with some minimalistic approaches to a control panel(less stuff=good) .  But I guess the only way to learn is to actually do it.  

[SirPoonga]

 Theres a few things to consider...

   First - make the 6 button setup alligned.  While it seems like it woulld be better to match the
lengths of the fingers... its not.   I tried it that way, and ruined a panel.   You naturally pull the middle finger in a tad... much like how you type on the keyboard.  The other way feels like a strain, and is both uncomfortable and confusing.

I disagree, it;s a personal preferences thing.  I like mine that are curved. And so do my friends.

 Next... the 2 end people would have trouble feeling confortable at an angle like that... because the panel dosnt match thier angle - and they would have trouble figuring out which way was up.  Also,  there would be no place to really rest thier arms... that and the corner digging into thier bellies.

true and un true.  I'd angle the corners, but D&D and TMNT have that layout.

[Dr. J]

Thanks for the compliments.  I considered scaling the size down a little, but it needs to be that wide to fit the two cupholders behind.  Plus that then gave me another excuse to have more room for my side players.  
  There is another reason I liked the angled corners (even though games like D&D and TMNT didn't do it).  At my height it doesn't exactly jab me in the stomach.  For me those corners are something much more uncomfortably reminiscent of a very large dog's snout saying hello when you visit friends or family.  I'd just prefer the CP not nuzzle me, especially considering my proximity to some pretty ugly and hairy friends if playing 3 or 4 player games.  If I stand back then I have to lean down and it starts to wear on my lower back.  
   I tried angling my buttons on a test CP and kept missing the center buttons when playing SF2.  I'd just catch the lip of it.  I guess way too much time and $ on that game has programmed my brain.  So as SirPoonga put, it's all preference.  

[Dak-ak]

looks like i am going to have to build a cardboard cp to figure out what i want... mm...

does this work well? im woried that the joysticks expecially are going to want to rip at the cardboard too bad...  any experiences?

~Dak~

[eightbit]

Building in cardboard will give you a feel for the space you want. You'll be able to stand around it with a couple of friends and know relatively easily if its going to work. You don't necessarily have to wire everything up and play but some people do. The cardboard isn't going to hold down a joystick for a real round of MK but it will give you a feel for what is good or bad. Most people just simulate playing, flaying their elbows and leaning side to side to see how much room you have before you run into the guy next to you.

[djsting]

I'm doing a cardboard mockup of my control pannel to see how I want the layout and spacing.  I am then going to do up one on a cheap peice of plywood and wire it up to play a few games to see how it feels.  If this step goes well I will then move forward with the real thing.  Personally I would rather do this than build decide I do not like it and rebuild using expensive materials which would end up going to waste.

[rampy]

I'm doing a cardboard mockup of my control pannel to see how I want the layout and spacing.  I am then going to do up one on a cheap peice of plywood and wire it up to play a few games to see how it feels.  If this step goes well I will then move forward with the real thing.  Personally I would rather do this than build decide I do not like it and rebuild using expensive materials which would end up going to waste.

I'm seeing something... it's your future... I see you...
and something... it's fuzzy.. can't quite make it out... it looks like..
You playing the cheap piece of plywood control panel still because you liked it so much and never got around to going past the prototype phase =P

rampy

PS I'm still using my plywood prototype piece... and once I route a slot for t-molding and shlop some laminate on there it will become my semi-permanent prototype piece (I'd still like to redo it at some point)

[Dak-ak]

thats what i worry about: ill be too busy mame-ing to bother building a proper cp :-)

~Dak~