Critique my 4 player panel

[mrjah]

An obvious homage to Supercade here...  Pardon the extra coordinate systems that I didn't clean out of the image.

Some notes:
- For reference, overall CP width is 48".  Raised section of CP matches width of cabinet.
- Vast majority of dimensions (buttons, joys, other spacing) are inspired by well-known machines.
- P3-4 joys are not angled: up is always up.
- Joys will be color coordinated with buttons for P1-P4: Red, yellow, blue, green.
- CP surface will not be gunmetal grey -- haven't gotten to that stage of design yet.
- 4-way joy in middle of panel is set up for left hand use; right hand on 2 buttons on lower right.
- White buttons in the center of the CP are pause, etc.  Three are function buttons, and the fourth (far left) must be held down simultaneously with one of the other three to get the function to fire.  Helps to prevent accidents.
- White buttons mounted on front edge of CP are coin and start for each player.  I'm not into coin boxes.
- Those are spinners on front corners of the CP.  I've tested these locations on a cardboard mockup and they work far better than they look.  I have some concern over button use with the spinner for P2, but it's not too bad to use.
- Flight stick (not shown) will be mounted between the two trackballs, and will actually retract cleanly down into the CP when not in use.  This will be a completely unnecessary and fantastic little add-on.

So...

- Should I put some buttons up by the trackballs?  Two per side, or something?  I turn to the experts here for guidance.  What do I need up there?
- What have I royally screwed up?

As always, thanks for your kind assistance...

[mccoy178]

No Golden Tee I take it?  Other than that it looks okay.  I've never been a big fan of the dual level, but if you look at my four person layout, you may not be a big fan of that either.

[cdbrown]

Having the trackballs close to the screen could leave your fingers sore, screen smudge marks or not getting the high score in the gold tell games or any game that requires fast rolling of the ball forwards. 

Be careful of the orientation of the 3 and 4 player joysticks. 
I prefer all the sticks to be + + + + 
and not x + + x
but this may work for your panel layout.

The buttons on the side walls - you may find people will bump them alot when playing games.  Make sure they won't do anything to the game - no shift keys assigned to these.  Nothing worse than accidentally nudging P1 start and pressing some other button causing the game to quit.

[PCtech]

Neat layout, only a couple things I see:

1) Like mentioned before, trackball use will be limited because the trackballs are so close to the screen.

2) What, no spinner?...for a CP that big, might want to find room for a spinner (personal preference)

3) The 2 buttons to the lower -right of the 4 way, looks like they might work better if they moved over to the right more (almost lined up with the stick)

4) Put the "side-wall" buttons on the upper lever (under the trackballs), that will keep folks from bumping the buttons with their bodies.

5) If the grey bottons between P1 & P2, and between P3 and P4 are coin bottons, might want to wire them to the coin door, or with the other admin buttons.

Otherwise looks good!

Good luck, please post picks as you go.

[TheRed]

I like it and don't know much about mame cabs etc....

With that said, I really enjoy 4 player games like the gladiator, which is a pgm game and I don't know if they are in mame.....but it does require 4 buttons for all players.


Again, I don't know much about meme, but I am guessing the new versions can pgm if it has STV games now.

[pointdablame]

I'd drop the 2 buttons for the 4way altogether... you can just use the first 2 buttons on either the P1 or P2 button layout, and it will look much better IMO.  You also give people the choice of which hand to use like I mention below.

I'm also assuming those silver things ARE spinners, despite what PCTech said.  They certainly don't look like buttons to me.  If they are spinners, you are losing the ability to choose which hand to use for the spinner if that means anything to you.  A number of games had a spinner at the center and symmetrical button layouts to either side so that you could use whatever hand you wanted... with your layout, P1 has to use his left hand for the spinner and P2 his right.  That may potentially bother people depending on how they used to play spinner games.

I agree with PCTech tho.. you should consider the coin/start buttons on the sidewall of the upper tier, not the front.

Also, are those 4 white buttons up top admin buttons?  It's totally personal preference, but you might want to consider using shift functions or putting them somewhere besides the actual control panel to make it look cleaner.  Again though, that's personal pref.

What are your plans for trackball buttons?  Will you be using the 3 button layout from P3 and P4?  It's not an ideal layout for missile command    but I'd think that the P1 and P2 buttons would be too awkward to use directly beneath the trackballs.

[mrjah]

Wow, this is some great feedback so far.  Thanks!

Some notes about your comments:

- I definitely wanted the dual trackball setup, and there are precious few ways to do it without a two-level CP.  Putting the trackballs on the lower level causes the same finger-jamming problem when your hand hits the front wall of the second tier, and I definitely wanted all 4/8 way joys on the bottom level.  so I threw the trackballs up top.  I'm not a big fan of MAME Golden Tee anyway, as the required trackball clearance takes up too much real estate for me to justify it.

- All sticks are ++++.

- Regarding the sidewall buttons -- they're strictly coin and player start buttons.  I don't anticipate any problems if people accidentally give themselves more credits or hit Start.  But if I can find the clearance around the trackballs, I'll probably try to move them up to the walls of the upper tier.

- Those are indeed two poorly modeled spinners on the front corners of the panel.  Not sure what to do about the left hand / right hand problem.  I tried putting the spinners directly beneath the P1 and P2 joys, but they get in the way of players who prefer to use a five-fingered Death Grip on the joys when they play.

- Thanks for the tips re: the buttons on the 4-way.  I'll probably remove them and let the player choose between the P1 or P2 buttons.

- I have absolutely no idea what to do for trackball buttons.  It seems that only two are necessary per trackball.  If I put them on the outside of the trackballs, it'll force people to roll left handed on the right trackball.  I see that as a bigger problem than the spinner issue.  Any ideas?

- Other than the panels, what would be a good place to put the admin buttons for easy reach?

[mccoy178]

Is that control panel proportionaly correct?  How long is it?  48x?

[Crazy_Mack]

I have been considering a control panel design similar to this. A couple things I will be doing differently:

1) The area for the upper level will be larger. Given joysticks and buttons don't require much movement, the lower level doesn't need to be as big as you have it. This gives more area for manipulating the trackballs on the upper level.

2) The trackballs will have their own buttons - which you'll have room for if you increase the area of the upper level.

3) Given there are a handful of games in which multiple players can use a spinner, I intend to give every player a spinner just right of the buttons.

4) I'm considering putting two 4-way joysticks on the upper level between the two trackballs. One for pac-man type games, and the other for QBert.

5) My design has a little more curve in the button layout and spread just a touch farther apart from each other. The intent is to have seven buttons of which any subset can match the layout of a variety of games (Mortal Combat, Track and Field, Guantlet, Basket Ball, etc). Button illumination will be used to indicate the buttons needed for any given game.

[pointdablame]

- Regarding the sidewall buttons -- they're strictly coin and player start buttons.  I don't anticipate any problems if people accidentally give themselves more credits or hit Start.  But if I can find the clearance around the trackballs, I'll probably try to move them up to the walls of the upper tier.

The possible problem here is shifted functions.  P1 start is the SHIFT button for the Ipac, so if someone were to say accidentally hit P1 start and P2 start at the same time... that would be the shifted function for Exit Game.... not fun.  If you bump that button and another is pushed, all kinds of crazy stuff may happen, so if you can put them elsewhere, it'd probably be worth it.

- Those are indeed two poorly modeled spinners on the front corners of the panel.  Not sure what to do about the left hand / right hand problem.  I tried putting the spinners directly beneath the P1 and P2 joys, but they get in the way of players who prefer to use a five-fingered Death Grip on the joys when they play.

There's not really much you can do, I just wanted to mention it.  I suppose you could try to jam them next to the trackballs but that isn't really ideal.  The only other option I see is putting a spinner in between the trackballs and using the P1 or P2 buttons, but that leaves you with only one spinner, and I assume 2p spinner games are important to you based on the layout, so that won't work.

- I have absolutely no idea what to do for trackball buttons.  It seems that only two are necessary per trackball.  If I put them on the outside of the trackballs, it'll force people to roll left handed on the right trackball.  I see that as a bigger problem than the spinner issue.  Any ideas?

Missile command requires 3 buttons, and it's worth the extra button just for that IMO   As I mentioned, you could use the 3 buttons on Players 3 and 4 for the trackball.  For missile command, you ideally want a row of 3 buttons, not the triangle design you have, but I don't see that as a huge problem... it would probably work ok.

- Other than the panels, what would be a good place to put the admin buttons for easy reach?

Depends on your cabinet really.  You may be able to fit them under the monitor, on the side of the CP, on top of the cab for functions you don't want everyone to have access to, etc etc. 

It's just personal preference though... I much prefer a simple (or as simple as possible) control panel, and I like to put the "other" buttons (coin, start, admin) somewhere else.  That's probably only because I think extra buttons make a panel look cluttered.

[hypernova]

you should consider the coin/start buttons on the sidewall of the upper tier, not the front.

If you consider this, make sure they don't interfere with the trackballs.

As TheRed said, there are a few 4 player, 4 button games.

I still don't see the reason for ++++.  Why wouldn't you want to orient the joystick to be aligned as the player would be standing there?  Seems to me if it was ++++, players 3 and 4 would be pushing NW and NE (respectively) relative to the position of their bodies to go up, which could be confusing.  (My panel's sporting the x++x design because the other way just seems as if it'd be confusing.)  Hmm...does it have to do with the relation to the screen?  The x++x layout, would people think that if they pushed up, their on-screen alter egos would go NW and NE?  Maybe that's the reason.  Someone verify?  

I just seem to remember that the Simpsons and Xmen had angled joys even if it was slight...but I'm probably wrong on that, as it's been probably 13 years since I've seen/played either one.  How ARE all the four player games set up, orientation wise, with respect to the way the CP is designed?  I'll assume it varies, but what seems to be the most prevalent design?

and will actually retract cleanly down into the CP when not in use.  This will be a completely unnecessary...

If it's unnecessary, why do it?  The only reason I see is to allow viewing of the screen, but that shouldn't be a problem, as it shouldn't be in the way of it.  Unless you have an easy way of accomplishing this feat within a quick time frame, are you sure you want to implement such a toy, especially, if by your own admission, its completely unnecessary?  Reason I say this is when you're building this, getting all excited, unless this is an easy thing to do, it may possibly end up frustrating you, especially if it causes you to mess something else up while making it.  And if you screw something up, and have to replace whatever, that'll only end up making you regret your decision to do it.

I'm such a pessimist.  Sorry!

[pointdablame]

I still don't see the reason for ++++.  Why wouldn't you want to orient the joystick to be aligned as the player would be standing there?  Seems to me if it was ++++, players 3 and 4 would be pushing NW and NE (respectively) relative to the position of their bodies to go up, which could be confusing.  (My panel's sporting the x++x design because the other way just seems as if it'd be confusing.)  Hmm...does it have to do with the relation to the screen?  The x++x layout, would people think that if they pushed up, their on-screen alter egos would go NW and NE?  Maybe that's the reason.  Someone verify? 

Most people, myself included, find it to be very distracting, and it just doesn't seem "natural."  I want to move my character onscreen the way I move the joystick.  It seems that most people envision the P3 and P4 angles to be so drastic, but once you stand in front of a 4p machine, you are very rarely angled much.  Even with the angled cutouts on this CP mockup, the P3 and P4 positions can easily see the screen in an almost "dead-on" position.

EDIT: I should clarify that "dead-on" statement as I know people will question it.  What I mean is, at any 4p cab I've ever owned or used, the P3 and P4 players were always able to position themselves in a way that they were looking at the screen close to straight on.  Obviously they will be at the side of the screen and will see it at an angle, but what I'm trying to get across is... I've never seen a person go up to say, a Gauntlet machine, and actually try to play at the 45degree angle the CP makes.  They tilt their body and the controls just move naturally.

I just seem to remember that the Simpsons and Xmen had angled joys even if it was slight...but I'm probably wrong on that, as it's been probably 13 years since I've seen/played either one.  How ARE all the four player games set up, orientation wise, with respect to the way the CP is designed?  I'll assume it varies, but what seems to be the most prevalent design?

My dedicated Xmen begs to differ    Xmen, TMNT, and Simpsons were all straight on to the screen.  To my knowledge, ALL 4p games use this orientation, and IIRC, I think Paige or someone confirmed this as well..   Either way, if it isn't "all"  its damn near every 4p game ever made, so that should say something.  I tend to lump this in the "personal preference" category too though.  If you angle them and like em, more power to ya.  I just personally don't like the feel.



Also, to the OP... for what it's worth, I'd drop the flight stick idea too.  It seems like a lot of work for something you deem unneccessary.  If you mean that as in "i'll never use it" just get a nice USB stick and interface it to your cab.  You'll have it when you need it, and it'll be gone when you dont.

If you meant it as "the recessing is unneccessary, but just cool" I think it's more trouble than its worth.  Flight sticks are TALL.. you're going to have to drop that bad boy way down into the bottom tier.  Plus, then you'll have a big square hold or cover on your CP that will look out of place IMO.  Just keep it there permanently if you think you'll use it often.. if not, go with the USB stick.

[mccoy178]

I like the angles because I don't like being shoulder to shoulder with my buddies.  The one thing I absolutely don't like is playing smash t.v. two player with those.  Not to bad for me since I'm used to it, but to someone visiting, a total bear.

[pointdablame]

I like the angles because I don't like being shoulder to shoulder with my buddies.  The one thing I absolutely don't like is playing smash t.v. two player with those.  Not to bad for me since I'm used to it, but to someone visiting, a total bear.

agreed on the Smash TV... you can do it, but it's not great.  But really, to "fix" that problem, you'd have to angle the P1/P3 and P2/P4 joysticks in a line, so for every game EXCEPT smash TV, you'd be all crooked heh 

Of course, he could always slap another joystick on the right side of P1 and P2 so he can get some 2player Smash TV action


BTW.. I"m not serious... 5 joysticks is enough for the panel already.

[mrjah]

I was almost completely kidding (almost) about the flight stick retracting.  For now, that part of the CP will be blissfully empty.  But we'll see...    It would be nice to get a flight stick on there if it wasn't intrusive.

GREAT point about the size of the upper tier of the playfield.  I currently have more than enough room on the lower tier, as I initially sized the upper tier based on almost no real consideration for what was necessary up there.  Mind if I "borrow" that insight?

For Smash TV, I was thinking of having the extra joysticks for P1 and P2 descend from the celiing on wires, amidst a smoke and laser show.  What do you think?

Edit: Almost forgot to ask.  If P1 + P2 is the shift key combination for Exit Game, then what happens when two players add a few credits mid-game and then happen to hit their respective Start buttons at the same time?  The whole thing dumps out to the software front end?

[pointdablame]

For Smash TV, I was thinking of having the extra joysticks for P1 and P2 descend from the celiing on wires, amidst a smoke and laser show.  What do you think?

Now that's just freaking absurd.  I mean the effort that you would have to.... oh.... what?  Sarcasm?  Oh ok... I get it.  Good one

Edit: Almost forgot to ask.  If P1 + P2 is the shift key combination for Exit Game, then what happens when two players add a few credits mid-game and then happen to hit their respective Start buttons at the same time?  The whole thing dumps out to the software front end?

yup.... that's what would happen.  You can change the settings if you'd like, which a lot of people do.  But as it stands, thats what would happen.

[cdbrown]

Edit: Almost forgot to ask.  If P1 + P2 is the shift key combination for Exit Game, then what happens when two players add a few credits mid-game and then happen to hit their respective Start buttons at the same time?  The whole thing dumps out to the software front end?
[/quote]
See here for the shift function of the Ipac (if that's what you are planning on using)
http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac2.html
Remapping is essential or premature game endings will be plenty

[mccoy178]

I can vouch for that.  I left the hobby for ten years because of that shift issue.  I'm still in counseling.

[hypernova]

For Smash TV, I was thinking of having the extra joysticks for P1 and P2 descend from the celiing on wires, amidst a smoke and laser show.  What do you think?

Sounds like a good idea.  Way easier to implement that than dropping a flight stick into the cp. 

See, pointdablame?  You gotta fight fire with fire!

[hypernova]

Oh, thanks also.  I'll have to check out the angle issue.  Since you mention that they're all ++++, I'll definitely have to reconsider and do some checking out what feels best.

[mrjah]

Today I integrated one of those huge laser spheres they build for planetariums into the marquee.

I'm calling it "Planet MAMEatarium."

Also, the trackballs will sometimes run slick with margaritas. 

A clown will live in the cabinet and come out once a week to announce birthdays.

[mccoy178]

I thought this was going to be an original?  All these new guys coming in here copying ideas.

[eastbayarb]

To the OP,

I am very interested to know why you want 2 trackballs and 2 spinners? What games take 2 track balls and what games take 2 spinners?

[pointdablame]

A clown will live in the cabinet and come out once a week to announce birthdays.

Can't sleep... clowns will eat me.  Can't sleep... clowns will eat me.

* pointdablame rocks back and forth

[Scott84]

I think the bottom line is that, somewhere down the line, someone will want to play golden tee, and with that control panel... you will be missing a good party game.

[Santoro]

I have been using this CP for 2 1/2 years.  I am going to redo it because of this problem.  Everyone told me about the issue at the time and I didn't think I'd want to play golf or bowling games so I left it. Then I got a faster PC and saw how good those games were.... 

[hypernova]

I didn't think I'd want to play golf or bowling games

As always.  Golf is no fun to watch.  Playing it, however, is a different matter.  Applies to the video games as well.

Cool, new smilies.  Definitely needed a few of these.  Just need the popcorn one and we'll be good just about.

[Santoro]

Cool, new smilies.  Definitely needed a few of these.  Just need the popcorn one and we'll be good just about.

Hey look at that.  Finally. 

[mrjah]

I thought this was going to be an original?  All these new guys coming in here copying ideas.

Thanks for the great suggestions!  I'll be sure to give them careful consideration!

I'm a fan of 2 spinners due to a fascination with Warlords.  There is a (partial?) list of dual-spinner games at the byoac Wiki: http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Spinners

Here's a (partial?) list of dual-trackball games from the forums: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2002

I'm very comfortable drawing the line at golf and bowling games.  As another poster mentioned, they are fun to play but not to watch.  And I don't find them particularly interesting.  I was driven to build the cabinet by a desire to play my favorite games, not to accommodate the small fraction of my visiting friends who care about digital golf.

Now, if such a thing can be done, I might experiment with turning up the sensitivity on the trackballs so you don't have to clobber the ball when you bowl or golf.  That would probably carry with it a new series of problems, though.  Meh.  If nobody ever plays Golden Tee on my machine, I'm fine with that.