Robotron Joystick

[mark6437]

I played a real Robotron at a bowling alley last night. The left joystick that moves the little man felt diferent than my Ultimarc 4/8 way joystick. I checked KLOV and it says Robotron uses two 8 way joysticks. My question is: Is the real Robotron joystick different than a regular 8 way joystick? The real one felt like it moved in more directions............Thx!

Mark
hou TX

[Xiaou2]

 Robotron uses two:  Wico 8 way  "Leaf"  joysticks.

 The leafs create a more responsive play, and you really need it in that game.    The joy travels in a smooth circle , instead of many joys, which have a box shaped restrictor.  This may be why it appears to have more directions to you.

 

[mark6437]

Ok that makes sense. So the answer is it just feels diffrent but I am really getting just as much control right?

Mark

[Timoe]

right

[NoOne=NBA=]

but I am really getting just as much control right?

No, you're not.

The mere fact that you brought this issue up shows that.
If you were getting the same amount of control with your setup, you wouldn't have noticed how much nicer it was to control the game with Wicos.

The square restricted 8-ways are heavily biased toward the diagonals.
This means that if you rotate the stick around the perimeter of its travel, you will get alot of shots to the diagonal, and relatively few to the true directions.
With the round restricted sticks, you will get a relatively even amount of shots to all eight directions.
The square restrictors also make it very difficult to make the fluid circular motions necessary to survive in Robotron at the higher levels.

[leapinlew]

but I am really getting just as much control right?

No, you're not.

The mere fact that you brought this issue up shows that.
If you were getting the same amount of control with your setup, you wouldn't have noticed how much nicer it was to control the game with Wicos.

The square restricted 8-ways are heavily biased toward the diagonals.
This means that if you rotate the stick around the perimeter of its travel, you will get alot of shots to the diagonal, and relatively few to the true directions.
With the round restricted sticks, you will get a relatively even amount of shots to all eight directions.
The square restrictors also make it very difficult to make the fluid circular motions necessary to survive in Robotron at the higher levels.

So true....

Trying to recapture the exact Robotron feel can cause a condition known as 'Robotron Madness'

I love that damn game... I sacrifice gameplay by using different joysticks to try to maximize the amount of games I can play. You have to make a choice if you only have 1 cabinet and 1 panel.

[mark6437]

Ok. I am going to order a new joystick to replace one of my 4/8 ways and try it out. Which one do ya'll suggest?
I am most interested in playing Robotron faithfully.

I figured these two might be good choices but do ya'll have any suggestions?

Perfect 360

[leapinlew]

Ok. I am going to order a new joystick to replace one of my 4/8 ways and try it out. Which one do ya'll suggest?
I am most interested in playing Robotron faithfully.

I figured these two might be good choices but do ya'll have any suggestions?

Perfect 360

[RayB]

Just buy a used control panel from a conversion off Ebay. The ones from the 80's usually have Wico leaf switch 8-ways on them.  To save on shipping, ask the seller to send you everything BUT the control panel base.

For example, there is a pair here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-PLAYER-CONTROL-PANEL_W0QQitemZ6260786935QQcategoryZ13718QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

One joystick by itself:
http://cgi.ebay.com/WICO-JOYSTICK_W0QQitemZ6259063453QQcategoryZ13718QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

...

[ArtMAME]

Wanna hear something really sad???   Back in the 80s, I had a Robotron ripoff game for the Atari 800 computer system, "Cyborg" I think it was called, anyway, I wanted that awesome Robotron control scheme so badly, but all I had back then was original Atari 2600 joysticks, so I mounted two of them on a plywood base, then put balltops on them from  old Tonka toy truck handles and proceeded to kick some Robotron...er...ahh...Cyborg butt ...

Isn't that just pitifull ?...back then there was no modern Internet, no Ebay, no online tutorials, no BYOAC,...

...man, this is depressing...

...no Ultimarc, no ponyboy, no RandyT, no PCs, no MAME, no running water, no sanitary facilities, no girlfriend, no social skills, no engineering skills, no....................................nuthin'....

But, we had our CLASSIC VIDEO GAMES , and that's all we needed to be happy:D...

[mark6437]

I think I am going to go with the 360. It will connect to the LED leads of the I-Pac for power and does not require the KeyWiz that the 49 way does. Retroblast gave it a great review also. I will post a follow up when I get it. Thx ya'll

Mark

[NoOne=NBA=]

I would go with the 49-ways for versatility.
They will play 4-way games like a 4-way, and 8-way games like an 8-way, but can also play 49-way and some analog games.

[leapinlew]

I would go with the 49-ways for versatility.
They will play 4-way games like a 4-way, and 8-way games like an 8-way, but can also play 49-way and some analog games.

I've done some reading on the 49 ways and I'm curious to hear from people who are currently using them.

When you say it plays 4 way like a 4 way and 8 like an 8 - is that from experience? The review at Retroblast isn't exactly a raving review. It's the feel I am worried about. They claim has a tight spongey feel. I suppose it also depends on your desire for an original look and feel. For example, nothing but a short balltop feels right when I'm playing Ms. Pacman. I have some magstiks that I bought for maximum versatility (switching between 4/8 way) and overall they are sticks that are master of none.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I mounted two of them on a plywood base.

I went low-tech for my Robotron fix.
I had it for the 7800 (great version BTW), and just duct taped two of my 2600 sticks to a plastic box full of bolts and stuff.

Asteroids, on the other hand, I actually made a really nice wood stand-alone CP for.
That eventually evolved into a box that had pinball/nudge buttons on it for Video pinball, and a switch to allow me to play Space Fury for Colecovision as well.

[RichyRich]

360's are awesome,even better with Slikstik handles.

[Toonces]

I would go with the 49-ways for versatility.
They will play 4-way games like a 4-way, and 8-way games like an 8-way, but can also play 49-way and some analog games.

I've done some reading on the 49 ways and I'm curious to hear from people who are currently using them.

When you say it plays 4 way like a 4 way and 8 like an 8 - is that from experience? The review at Retroblast isn't exactly a raving review. It's the feel I am worried about. They claim has a tight spongey feel. I suppose it also depends on your desire for an original look and feel. For example, nothing but a short balltop feels right when I'm playing Ms. Pacman. I have some magstiks that I bought for maximum versatility (switching between 4/8 way) and overall they are sticks that are master of none.

Yep, It's from experience. I had the midway 49 ways but wanted a balltop so now I have the williams 49 ways. The best "Jack of all trades" stick around. I actually like the Williams 49 ways a tad better than the Midways but both are excellent choices.


mark6437, you won't be dissapointed with the P360, it's a great stick. Based heavily on the Wico stick. Before Happ bought the company that made P360's they were an add-on for Wico sticks to replace the leafs. They do feel slightly different as they have a heavy spring & washer that the original wicos didn't but are a great stick nonetheless. I don't really care for the slikstik handles though, they add too much weight to the top. You can use original Wico sticks in them though if you want the authentic balltop look.

Toonces

[NoOne=NBA=]

When you say it plays 4 way like a 4 way and 8 like an 8 - is that from experience?

Yes.
I have both Happ/Midway and Williams 49-ways, as well as a BUNCH of other sticks.
I prefer the Williams ones to the Happ ones, because they have more resistance to them.
That said, I don't use them as 8-ways or 4-ways very often.
I have 8-ways and 4-ways to use.

The 49-ways FUNCTION just like 4-way (with the GGG interface), but they don't FEEL just like a 4-way.
They do FUNCTION and FEEL like a round-restricted 8-way, in 8-way mode, however.

ANY round-restricted 8-way will not play 4-way games well.
This includes Wico, P-360s, Supers, etc...
There are only two ways that the 8-way data can be interpolated down to 4-way data.
The first is to ignore any diagonal, and just wait until the stick comes back to a true direction.
This creates HUGE dead spots in the diagonals.
The second is for the software to GUESS which direction you meant to go when you went into the diagonal area, and send that signal until you get out of the diagonal.
That means that if you go from Right to Up-Right to Up, the software will either keep sending Right until you get to Up only, or will send Up immediately when you hit Up-Right.
Both of these methods will frustrate you to no end with improper signals.

Truthfully, based on your other comments, it sounds like you are not going to be happy with ANY of the "one stick does all" solutions.
There will always be something that doesn't feel right.
You should give serious consideration to a modular system.
That was the only thing that actually satisfied me.
You ALWAYS have the right stick for EVERY game that way.
Nothing else compares to it.

[SirPeale]

I love Robotron.  One day I hope to have a dedicated unit.

Until then, I have installed Wico leafs as the 1 and 2 player joys on my Project: blue cabinet.  In this way I can play flawlessly.

[ArtMAME]

You know, I was perfectly happy playing Robotron with my two Happ Ultimates until...I started reading the BYOAC forums...bad idea ...

...that sent me on a quest to find the best Robotron control scheme...so... I finally got some Wico 8-way leaf balltops that I will install in my CP soon... 

I am curious as to how the P360 or the 49-ways feel...I would  love to have a 49-way for Sinistar...

I have thought about using two Suzos because they have short throw...but they do have the restrictor on them so the motion is not circular...

Or maybe two Sanwa balltops...?

Before I got the Wico balltops, I even though about using two Wico Command Control bat-handle joystick (originally for Atari 2600)... I have 4 of them laying around...

Anyway... I am sure you will find the right solution to suit your needs...good luck...

[RayB]

Before I got the Wico balltops, I even though about using two Wico Command Control bat-handle joystick (originally for Atari 2600)... I have 4 of them laying around...

Technically they are almost the same hardware. It's just difficult to mount to a control panel.

I have two original Wico leaf 8-ways on my cab (player 1 and 2) which I use for Robotron. AHHHH it's good. I find it hard to hit diagonals though. Maybe I have MAME steadykey enabled. That would get in the way, wouldn't it?

[Xiaou2]

 Yes it would.   

  Wico leafs should hit the diagnals perfectly fine.. else youd suffer greatly in the gameplay.

 One thing about leafs, is that sometimes they get bent outwards a bit.   This will cause the diags to be harder to hit.   Just have to bent them back a bit.

 Also use contact cleaner to clean the top and bottom pads on each leaf.   They get dirty over time, and could cause a contact to be blocked.

 Wico leafs are great for games like robotron where you are always moving constantly.   However, for a fighting game, where you often stop moving and do complex movments... it can sometimes be tough to register diagnals.   

 That is why many people use specific sticks for specific game types. 

 The arcades actually switched to micros because they didnt have to be cleaned or adjusted..  and the square restriction made it easier to feel when you hit a diagnal.  But... using  them on a game like robotron just doesnt work well.  The slower reaction, the constant circular movment, and the tighter throw.. all mean you will be killed too easily.

   

[Kremmit]

The review at Retroblast isn't exactly a raving review. It's the feel I am worried about. They claim has a tight spongey feel. 

Retroblast wasn't exactly in love with the Wico, either.  Which is funny, since Kev is a Robotron player.

Personally, I love the Wico feel.  I agree with the suggestions to find some Wico's on ebay. 

Second choice, if Robotron is still your primary goal- The P360 is actually modeled after the Wico- have a look at the two side-by side some time.  You can also swap in Wico handles- Ponyboy sells Wico handles in buy/sell/trade.  He sells the p360s, too, for that matter, and I imagine he can get the springs.

As for the 49-ways- I haven't used the Happ 49-ways that most folks use, so I really can't comment on those.  I have a set of Williams 49-ways, and I really like them.  If you decide to go for versatility, look for the Williams.

[RayB]

Retroblast wasn't exactly in love with the Wico, either.  Which is funny, since Kev is a Robotron player.

Personally, I love the Wico feel.  I agree with the suggestions to find some Wico's on ebay. 

No, but it was later revealed Kevin had a bad joystick. Since Wicos are no longer made, Kevin had to test with a used one, and there was a discussion last year about how his stick must have been worn out, or the rubber grommet dried up. Something like that.