GGG Tutorial: How to loosen an IL Switchable Joystick (aka T-Stick)

[RandyT]

This info helps a couple of my competitors, but I think it will help the community as a whole even more so here we go.......

A little while back I decided to take a look at one of the IL switchable joysticks to see why people liked them.  I never quite found the answer to that question, but I did find something else.  The answer to the "stiffer than heck" joystick problem (it's so simple I can't believe it hasn't surfaced yet)

BTW, yes, the stock switches on this stick are clicky and stiff as well.  But the stiffness of the switches doesn't significantly contribute to the stiffness problem  of this joystick.

Sweet jeebus, look at the size of that thing!  It looks like it belongs on a pogo stick!  Ok, maybe it's not that bad, but it is a very large, very stiff spring that is resting directly on a centering plate that rocks inside the joystick housing.  This is the thing that is primarily responsible for the stiffness of the stick.  You could look for another spring of the same diameter that was a little mushier/shorter, but it would be a lot of effort and probably cost too much.

Or.....

These are the components that, in conjunction with the spring, are responsible for creating all that tension.  The 4 screws and the top plate itself.  All that spring sticking up in the first image is mashed down into the upper cavity of the joystick housing and held tightly in place with the upper plate attached with the 4-screws as shown.  This puts crazy pressure on the centering plate inside and prevents it from rocking easily, thus making the joystick hard to move.

And that's how you fix it...or at least improve it a lot.  I found that a spacer of about .200"  on each of the 4 screws relieves a significant amount of tension created by the humongous spring.  You can vary the tension to your liking by changing the size of the spacer, but beyond .250" you'll need to get some longer screws as well.

Drawbacks:  Only one that I can see.  The final height of the stick will be shorter by the size of the spacer you decide to use.  Oh, and a spider might try to make a nest in the new opening below the plate, but they won't last long after a round with a good shmup.

And that's it.  Hopefully this will help the folks who have been searching for a solution to this problem for so long.  If anyone has something to add, including success or failure stories doing this, please let me know.  Hopefully I haven't forgotten anything, as I disassembled this a while ago.


Final note:  In the near future, I will find some nice spacers for this mod and stock them at the store in case anyone has trouble finding some that will work.

RandyT

[kowal]

This is not good solutions I applied it once. joystick return to center bad.
this is problem switches.
SAIA joystick be sold from switches XGG2. Joystick has tension 350g then. on switches X3C2 has 250-225g. Cherry switches 225-200g.


I command to buy Mag-stick. This better version T-stick. Joystick has tension 175g then (XGG2). on switches X3C2 has 125g.  Cherry switches 100g!
he has small fault: pivot he would can be placed more tightly in base (it after centring to center be able to differently move sie about 1mm on sides yet)

[Grasshopper]

A little while back I decided to take a look at one of the IL switchable joysticks to see why people liked them.  I never quite found the answer to that question, .........

I hope this is the last comment you make here about a competitor's product. This is too interesting a thread to allow to degenerate into a pissing contest.

Anyway, now I've got that off my chest, I like your solution. In fact I actually tried it myself a few months ago and it works pretty well. However I'd definitely want to buy longer screws even when using a very thin spacer as the whole weight of the joystick, plus the spring tension, plus possibly someone pushing down on the joystick handle rests on those four screws.

I disagree with your comments regarding the microswitches. They do add a significant amount of extra tension to the joystick and make the joystick feel less smooth. I did some experiments recently with the stock microswitches, the light Ultimarc ones, and some that I removed from a Happ Super. Basically I found that, the lighter the microswitches are, the better the joystick's feel. However, there is a limit to how light the switches can be. I noticed with the Super microswitches (which are the lightest of all) that one of the microswitches would occasionally remain in an activated position when the handle returned to centre. Having said that, this may have been a problem with the microswitch's activation point rather than its tension.

Now you're acquired a T-Stick, please could you let us know how well it works with your Versa-Ball handles. It occurs to me that a better solution to the tension/short throw problem might be to simply make the handles longer, and presumably this could be achieved with the Versa-Balls.

Thanks

[kowal]

I noticed with the Super microswitches (which are the lightest of all) that one of the microswitches would occasionally remain in an activated position when the handle returned to centre. Having said that, this may have been a problem with the microswitch's activation point rather than its tension.

difference in engagement results from placing lever.

it was one should lightly bend lever

[RandyT]

A little while back I decided to take a look at one of the IL switchable joysticks to see why people liked them.  I never quite found the answer to that question, .........

I hope this is the last comment you make here about a competitor's product. This is too interesting a thread to allow to degenerate into a pissing contest.

Grasshopper, this product is a commercially available joystick from Industrias Lorenzo.  It is not made by a competitor of mine and I have the same ability to carry it in my store as they.  I have been considering this for a while and may still do so.  The feel of it does not fit my personal taste at all.  That is my opinion, and I have every right to state it as you do.

Furthermore, I will continue to state my opinions on products I like or dislike, just as you do.   If you do not like my opinions, that doesn't really matter.  But I will allow neither you, nor anyone else here who is not a moderator to censor my thoughts because they don't happen to agree with them.

Back to the thread...

Anyway, now I've got that off my chest, I like your solution. In fact I actually tried it myself a few months ago and it works pretty well. However I'd definitely want to buy longer screws even when using a very thin spacer as the whole weight of the joystick, plus the spring tension, plus possibly someone pushing down on the joystick handle rests on those four screws.

I'm a pretty good size guy and can bench press about 250lbs.  I've pretty much trashed the stick at this point anyway, so after using regular machine nuts as spacers, I grabbed the two parts from just about every imaginable angle and pulled my hardest.  I couldn't begin to get it to budge.  You can use longer screws if you want, but unless you dance on your joysticks, it will most likely be fine.

I disagree with your comments regarding the microswitches. They do add a significant amount of extra tension to the joystick and make the joystick feel less smooth.

 

My comment was based on the fact that when using this method, I was able to make the stick feel almost "sloppy" with the stock switches.  The switches are springy, as I have stated, but can easily be depressed with your fingertip.  Do you know how much extra force is created through the leverage you have in that joystick shaft as opposed to your fingertip?  The stiffness problem lies almost entirely in that spring.  Smoothness is a different discussion.

Now you're acquired a T-Stick, please could you let us know how well it works with your Versa-Ball handles. It occurs to me that a better solution to the tension/short throw problem might be to simply make the handles longer, and presumably this could be achieved with the Versa-Balls.

The shaft is the correct diameter and the grooves are quite close, but may allow for some up/down movement.  To be quite honest, the unit found itself in my drill press before I had the answer to that question.  The longer stick will increase the throw, but it is still quite stiff because of the tension on that spring.

RandyT

[kowal]

Magnetical version has small tension.  Better to buy this versions than to think how to improve T - stick

[Grasshopper]

A little while back I decided to take a look at one of the IL switchable joysticks to see why people liked them.  I never quite found the answer to that question, .........

I hope this is the last comment you make here about a competitor's product. This is too interesting a thread to allow to degenerate into a pissing contest.

Grasshopper, this product is a commercially available joystick from Industrias Lorenzo.  It is not made by a competitor of mine and I have the same ability to carry it in my store as they.  I have been considering this for a while and may still do so.  The feel of it does not fit my personal taste at all.  That is my opinion, and I have every right to state it as you do.

Furthermore, I will continue to state my opinions on products I like or dislike, just as you do.   If you do not like my opinions, that doesn't really matter.  But I will allow neither you, nor anyone else here who is not a moderator to censor my thoughts because they don't happen to agree with them.

Oh dear. Perhaps I could have put that better.

There was nothing wrong with your comment as such, and I'm certainly not trying to censor you. I was just, after a recent very nasty thread, trying to nip any potential problems in the bud. Unfortunately my remark has had completely the opposite effect to what I intended so I'll refrain from commenting further on the matter.

[RandyT]

Magnetical version has small tension.  Better to buy this versions than to think how to improve T - stick

That's great if you don't already own one.  Hopefully, this will give the folks who have already spent the money an option that might help them.

RandyT

[RandyT]

This is not good solutions I applied it once. joystick return to center bad.

Did not experience this.  How big were your spacers?

RandyT

[kowal]

3-4 weeks. I had 2 T - stcik was 1,5 year and this one of first things which I made to he acted more softly. It alters the dynamics of working... this is unfavourable in shumps games. Better to alter switches. It was it been possible to reach differences 150g even. Without loss of dynamics.

[MinerAl]

Couldn't you just clip a 360^o (or whatever) section of the spring?

[RandyT]

3-4 weeks. I had 2 T - stcik was 1,5 year and this one of first things which I made to he acted more softly. It alters the dynamics of working... this is unfavourable in shumps games. Better to alter switches. It was it been possible to reach differences 150g even. Without loss of dynamics.

You misunderstood the question.  Without knowing the extent or method used in your modification, your results are hard to quantify.  Simply reducing the spring tension should not appreciably change the dynamic of the stick any more than changing the switches would.

FWIW, this method reduces the tension on the stick by about 226 grams (~.5lbs) using the same switches.  It can be done for less than the cost of one new microswitch and with a much less effort. IMHO, it does not appreciably change the dynamic of the stick as there is still plenty of tension to center the stick properly.  Not as much as before, but that's pretty much the point of all this.

Couldn't you just clip a 360^o (or whatever) section of the spring?

Unfortunately, that's not possible with this spring.  In order to provide even pressure on the plate, there has to be a perfect circle at the top and bottom of the spring.  If you look closely at the photo, you'll see that the spring is actually ground flat in order to provide this.


RandyT

[MinerAl]

Ah.

Even with the perfect flat top, wouldn't the majority of the force come straight up from the last angled part of the spring?

Regardless, I like the idea.  I think I might go grab a few dozen little flat washers and try to find the sweet spot

[RandyT]

Even with the perfect flat top, wouldn't the majority of the force come straight up from the last angled part of the spring?

Maybe to a small extent, but probably not as much as one might think.  The metal would need to twist for this to happen and it resists that as well, so the energy gets transferred over the larger area.

Regardless, I like the idea.  I think I might go grab a few dozen little flat washers and try to find the sweet spot

Be sure to report back with your findings!

RandyT

[MinerAl]

Will do.

FWIW if you could come up with IL switching sticks with ball top handles, and bring it in under the price of the same product from someone else, I'd probably buy them from you.  Especially if you tweaked them in your usual fashion.

I build my controllers with a Mac in mind, so Andy's USB keyboard encoders are the only option, but your products always seem to be top notch...

See what you can do to "even-plusser" a T-Stick

[Grasshopper]

The holy grail for me would be a joystick with the feel of a Suzo 500 but the switching mechanism of a T-Stik+.

[RandyT]

You guys are just  trying to give Steve more ammo.....



RandyT

[whammoed]

I build my controllers with a Mac in mind, so Andy's USB keyboard encoders are the only option, but your products always seem to be top notch...

You can't use a gamepad device like the gpwiz or an apac with a mac?

[MinerAl]

You probably can.  I was interested in keyboard encoders though, just because of the ease of using them with MacMAME.

My next cab will be a full mamewah/powermame pc based cab though...

[NoOne=NBA=]

RandyT is dead-on with this idea--as usual.
I finally got around to trying it, and it works GREAT.

I used four #6 or #8 washers on each screw.
I'm not sure which size they were, but they fit tightly on the stock screws.
That created a 3/16" gap, which made the stick feel perfect to me.
The pressure loosened up alot, but the stick retained the short throw.

This is EXACTLY what I've been looking for in a 4-way.
I highly recommend it to anyone looking for light pressure/short throw.