Printing format

[ITrek]

What format do you use when getting a company to print a large format graphic (psd, ai, jpeg, postscript, tiff...)?

I've only checked a few of companies, Kinko's being one of them but so far have not been able to find one that will take anything but jpeg or PDF format.  They tell me it has to do with how large a file that can be sent to a large format printer.  For example, I was told that Adobe Illustrator or Photoshop format couldn't be sent to an HP3000 printer because it couldn't take a file larger than 5MB.  It would have to be converted to PDF format first before printing.  I was afraid that this might not produce the best image.  Is this something I should be concerned about?

Also, does it make sense to print on glossy paper if the graphic is going to be under Lexan or is regular paper Ok?

[rampy]

Man, I'm not a large format printer expert.. but that sounds like a load of crap...

I've printed much larger file size with an ancient hp 650c... and any print shop worth it's salt can print .psd's and .ai's... that's just crap... .jpg (although you can crank up the quality slider) is still a lossey compression, which seems just wrong to use for printing...  *Shrug*

just my opinion... but sounds like a total load...

rampy

[Carsten Carlos]

If needed, we throw 2 GB (haven't tried more so far) at our HP Designjet5000 - but we use professional printing software for this. jpg,eps,ps,bmp,tif,pdf(eps with text as curves is better)... Best at our place is eps.

[Brad Lee]

The size limit thing IS bunk to the best of my knowledge. Saying that you can only print a 5mb document because the printer only has that much memory, just doesn't jive. That's the entire reason for a print spooler- the software processes the document on the PCs memory and disk space if needed. So unless they have some very specific software and printer that doesnt have a way to spool to disk before printing, they don't want the business

[RandyT]

What format do you use when getting a company to print a large format graphic (psd, ai, jpeg, postscript, tiff...)?

I've only checked a few of companies, Kinko's being one of them but so far have not been able to find one that will take anything but jpeg or PDF format.  They tell me it has to do with how large a file that can be sent to a large format printer.  For example, I was told that Adobe Illustrator or Photoshop format couldn't be sent to an HP3000 printer because it couldn't take a file larger than 5MB.  It would have to be converted to PDF format first before printing.  I was afraid that this might not produce the best image.  Is this something I should be concerned about?

This has to be about the most bizarre load of hooey I have heard  But considering where you heard it, I'm not that surprised.

Large format printers are between 300 and 1200 dpi devices.  At 1200 dpi, 5 meg would barely be letter size.

I typically throw 80-100+ megs at my printer and it still has to interpolate it up.  Ask them if there is anyone else there you can talk to, like a Manager or something (might not be any better, but it's worth a shot).

Also, does it make sense to print on glossy paper if the graphic is going to be under Lexan or is regular paper Ok?

It sure does .  Inkjet prints on glossy paper are usually much more vibrant and intense, and blacks will be darker as well.  The glossy paper is usually thicker and has a coating on it that traps the ink droplets just below the surface of the coating.  Plain paper sucks the ink right down into the fibers of the paper. which can cause "buckleing"  and washed out looking images.

It's worth the extra cost.

RandyT

[PoDunkMoFo]

Kinko's....Jack of all trades....Master of none!

At my shop I will accept a jpeg or pdf only if the person bringing me the file is absolutely graphicly challanged.  The only reasons I can think of for that load they shoveled on you are these.

A)  Kinko's is kind of like McDonalds in that it is a chain store and not normally staffed with experts (Puting it kindly) in a given field.  About the time the kid working there gets a real handle on what he is doing he is out passing out resumes to get a better job (I get them all the time).

B) By having you bring them a small file they can RIP the job faster and get it out the door quicker.  RIP stands for Raster Image Processing and it is the proccess in which the Processor (Software or Hardware) takes the data contained in your image file analizes it and then converts it into something the printer can understand.  In the case of Large Format printing a very large file can take a very long time to digest.

In my shop I can and do take just about any type of image file the customer brings me.  Illustrator and Photoshop are what I prefer to work in.  About the only things I turn away are things like Microsoft Word, Printshop, and any lame ass home type publishing app you can think of.

As far as file size goes there is such a thing as a point of diminishing returns.  There is no reason to use a 40 meg file to print a Marquee all you are doing is throwing data at the RIP that it does not need.  The result of too large a file is much slower production and no noticeable gain in quality.

[RandyT]

As far as file size goes there is such a thing as a point of diminishing returns.  There is no reason to use a 40 meg file to print a Marquee all you are doing is throwing data at the RIP that it does not need.  The result of too large a file is much slower production and no noticeable gain in quality.

I agree with everything you wrote, but I have to politely question the last statement

The RIP is responsible for a couple of major tasks.  The first is matching the colors of the image to the color gamut of the particular inks used in the printer.  The other is to intelligently scale the image to the native resolution of the printer.

The example you gave of 40 megs for a marquee really isn't overkill for a 600dpi printer.  A 24"x8" marquee using 24bit color at 600dpi comes out to about 192 megabytes.  Even at 40 megs, the RIP has to fill in a lot of data to reach the native resolution of the printer.  

Granted, most source material of that size (or larger) probably wasn't created in that kind of resolution, but if it was, either by a high resolution scanner or 3D rendering software, the result will almost always look better the closer you are to printer's native res.  Unless you like dither patterns .

RandyT

[SteveJ34]

<snip>
Also, does it make sense to print on glossy paper if the graphic is going to be under Lexan or is regular paper Ok?

One option to consider is using a translucent backlit material instead of paper. I had mine done at Kinko's (to which I did not experience the image hogwash you have found) in the "banner/sign department".

This material is designed to have a light behind it and when sandwiched between lexan (to protect the image) looks great.

The cost will be a bit more (I believe mine was like $28 + tax) but I figured after all I spent on other cab aspects (27" TV, new PC, keyboard encoder, buttons, joys, trackball...you know the routine) why not get something I would be happy with.

Best of luck!

Steve

[PoDunkMoFo]

I agree with everything you wrote, but I have to politely question the last statement

The example you gave of 40 megs for a marquee really isn't overkill for a 600dpi printer.  A 24"x8" marquee using 24bit color at 600dpi comes out to about 192 megabytes.  Even at 40 megs, the RIP has to fill in a lot of data to reach the native resolution of the printer.  

Granted, most source material of that size (or larger) probably wasn't created in that kind of resolution, but if it was, either by a high resolution scanner or 3D rendering software, the result will almost always look better the closer you are to printer's native res.  Unless you like dither patterns .

RandyT

This would be tre if screen dpi's were the same as printer dpi's... they are not.  Here is a better explination then I could give.

http://www.ridgewoodcameraclub.org/Digital%20Manipulation/Articles/Image%20Resolution%20vs%20Printer%20Resolution.pdf

I have owned and ran large format printer almost 6 years.   I have never printed anything at 192 megs, it would take several hours just to RIP it.  I have several posters hanging in my lobby 24"x36".  None of the posters were printed from larger then 10 meg files and it would take a loop to be able to tell they were not photo enlargements.  The marquee on my cab was printed from an 8 meg file and it looks as good as any actual arcade marquee I've ever seen.

[PoDunkMoFo]

Man my spelling and typo errors are nasty.  Can you tell I make signs for a living?

This is a better link w/ no downloading needed.

http://www.ou.edu/architecture/archlab/concepts.htm

[RandyT]

Man my spelling and typo errors are nasty.  Can you tell I make signs for a living?

This is a better link w/ no downloading needed.

http://www.ou.edu/architecture/archlab/concepts.htm

Ok, I read the page you referred to  

According to the formula used on that page, and assuming that a 600dpi printer needed the same 5 lines to produce it's colors as the 300dpi printer used in the example, the "maximum necessary image resolution" for  a 24" x 8" graphic is exactly 33,177,600 bytes, or about 33megs.  

This is derived from the following:

Printer resolution (600dpi) / Lines required  (5) =  Screen (120)
2 x Screen (120)=Optimal Image Res (240dpi or pixels per inch)

8 x 24=192 sq inches

192 X 240^2 (pixels squared) = 11059200 total pixels

11059200 x 3 (R-G-B, 24 bit)= Image size 33,177,600 bytes.


A good RIP will certainly make up for a lot, and if you don't have something to directly compare it to, lower res images look fine.  But I have done numerous comparisons with different resolutions and it is pretty easy to see the differences side by side.  My tests were made using an 52" HP 3800CP and a dedicated Fiery RIP.

BTW, I routinely send 190meg files to that printer for 24 x 36 prints.  They take about a half hour to come out the chute from the time I press the "go" button

RandyT
(Been doing this about 6 years myself   )

[rampy]

Oh YEAH? well i started needleworking my marquee by hand 6 years ago and still haven't finished!

Put that DPI in your pipe an smoke it!

rampy

PS Yes I've clearly gone insane from being cooped up in my house and being surrounded by/shoveling snow... (you get buried where you are RT?)

[RandyT]

Oh YEAH? well i started needleworking my marquee by hand 6 years ago and still haven't finished!

Put that DPI in your pipe an smoke it!

rampy

PS Yes I've clearly gone insane from being cooped up in my house and being surrounded by/shoveling snow... (you get buried where you are RT?)

LOL! I hope you used translucent thread  

Yeah, big time buried.  For once, the cost of gas for the Expedition doesn't seem so important .

RandyT

[Kane]

Does that mean the KeyWiz I ordered on Saturday is gonna be delayed?

[RandyT]

Does that mean the KeyWiz I ordered on Saturday is gonna be delayed?

Nope  (see the part about the Expedition)

RandyT

[Kane]

sweet  

[PoDunkMoFo]

Here is a piece of a TRON Marquee I just finished for CAGA.

Filesize - 8.07 megs (You are probably seing it onscreen larger than actual size)

Looks pretty damn good to me.

Of course not as good as my counted cross stitch version  

[PoDunkMoFo]

Next Up - My DigDug Quilt

[rampy]

too funny PoDunkMoFo...

=P

rampy

[RandyT]

Filesize - 8.07 megs (You are probably seing it onscreen larger than actual size)

Looks pretty damn good to me.

Of course not as good as my counted cross stitch version  

LOL! (cross stitch )

That sample looks very good, but I would consider that a best case scenario.

Solid colors and straight lines don't really tell the true story.  Most of the home-made marquees are more complex than the old originals.  One that comes to mind is the one that had about a hundred miniature marquees in a collage.  Smooth color tones other than simple gradients will look different as well.

What file format was the original? And what are the dimensions of the marquee?

I want to clarify something else while I'm at it

That filesize I mentioned is for RAW uncompressed data.  This can be seen when the file is loaded into Photoshop (if you have the status bar visible).  Compressed file formats, like JPEG, GIF, compressed TIFF, etc... are a lot smaller on the disk than their resulting data that gets sent to the printer.

Windows BMP files are uncompressed and reflect the true size of the image.  BMP files are also likely to be the best option to take to a printer if you want your detail to stay in tact.


RandyT

[SONIC]

To clear things up:

PDF is a very splendid format to get things printed in... the size of PDF's a much smaller than the size on an EPS-file.

But in general material like Tiff, Eps and PDF's should be used, most likely in 300 dpi, and in cmyk-colours.

I know this very well, 'coz I work in the graphic buisness, and work with these files every single day

[PoDunkMoFo]

The top image is a BMP file.

I agree in general I only use BMP or other uncompressed images for printing.

If you look closely at the image you will see very subtle shading and dimensional effects in the meganta outline and also a gradiant fill from white to blue just barely shows in the main part of the letter (sorry bad section of the image to show those details.)

In response to not using EPS from sonic.  When I ask for eps files it is in cases where the artwok was done in vector format such as Illustrator or Corel not bitmap images as an EPS.  In these cases you can throw any argument about resolution out the window because vector images are very small and you blow them up from here to the moon with no degredation in image quality.

[RandyT]

The top image is a BMP file.

I agree in general I only use BMP or other uncompressed images for printing.

If you look closely at the image you will see very subtle shading and dimensional effects in the meganta outline and also a gradiant fill from white to blue just barely shows in the main part of the letter (sorry bad section of the image to show those details.)

HEY!  You never told anyone you did that on an 8-color printer  

That skews everything!

Cheater.....

RandyT
(BTW, you do nice work!)

[PoDunkMoFo]

That's an 8 color 1440x1440 Variable dot pitch firebreathing monkey stompin monster. ohh arrgh argh argh!

Thanks

[killr0y]

Wouldn't the PNG format be good?  It retains all the detail (lossless) but has a very high compression ratio.  

[RandyT]

Wouldn't the PNG format be good?  It retains all the detail (lossless) but has a very high compression ratio.  

As long as the printer you take it to knows how to deal with it, it should be fine.  It's going to depend on the software they use to print with.

RandyT

[neuromancer]

I've only checked a few of companies, Kinko's being one of them but so far have not been able to find one that will take anything but jpeg or PDF format.  

Another possibility is they don't have any real software... If you do your layout in Illustrator, you should be able to save it as a .pdf file. I haven't noticed any loss of quality when doing that, but that's just on my system here at the office, which doesn't include any big printers.

My boss has been threatening to buy one for most of a decade now. Drool... :-)

We actually do own a HP pen plotter. It weighs about as much as a car. It's across the street in an unheated building.

Bob