720 degrees

[SirPoonga]

urebel, but you have it as dials not tracks?

[jerryjanis]

Yeah, that makes more sense.  I think it's no different as far as the way Mame deals with it.

[SirPoonga]

Yeah, that makes more sense.  I think it's no different as far as the way Mame deals with it.

Can you still answer my quesiton.  In analog mame I have keys for dial_v.  I hit the keys nothing happens, I thought the skater calibrated?

[jerryjanis]

Can you still answer my quesiton.  In analog mame I have keys for dial_v.  I hit the keys nothing happens, I thought the skater calibrated?

Check the previous page - the second message from the bottom.  (Except that now, with AnalogMame, subsititute track y with dial v).

[SirPoonga]

Ahhh, I missed it in the clutter.

So, I think a hack to an oscar spinner is possible
Making a 720 joystick would be difficult, but I;d be happy with a large spinner knob with a small knob to grab ad rotate.  Like those large truck steering wheels.

[u_rebelscum]

I left it as dials so any 720 ctrlr file will work on both mame and analog+.  In mame, dial & trackball_X are treated exactly the same (& dial_V == trackball_Y).  Dial V is even partially right name for that spinner; you spin that dial enough and the skater faces North (vertical)

BTW, 720 encoder wheels vs the oscar encoder wheels:
720 has 72 gaps (5 degrees each), 720 calibration wheel has 2 gaps (@ 10 degrees)
oscar Pro wheel has 66 gaps (@ 5 5/11 degrees each), oscar model 3 has 36 gaps (10 degrees)
720 wheels have a little larger diameter than the pro, while the model 3 is much smaller than the other two.

[u_rebelscum]

Sorry for the delay --  Too busy playing 720

[jerryjanis]

On my tests, I find that the calibration is a little different (Analog+0.65.2, mouse 1 = Dial, mouse 2 (trackball) = Dial V):
If skater is facing East to NorthEast to North, the calibration wheel turns the skater counter clockwise.
But if the skater is facing any other direction, including SouthEast, the skater turns clockwise.
Is this the same with you?  Anybody know how about on the real thing?

Yes, that's how it worked for me as well (when I used the trackball - there is nothing different that I noticed in Mame Analog+.

I assume "tick" == 22.5 degrees, since that's the minimum you can see the skater turn.  But since you sometimes need to turn ~50 rotations, I guess one rotation "fixes" one missed action encoder gap (1/72th of a circle).

By tick I meant that some unknown amount - I assume one missed action encoder gap also, but since I have the dial's sensitivity setting maxed out, I'm not working with exact numbers so I don't know exactly how much the skater is turning, although I know that it takes a few full rotations to get the skater to change his angle visible on the screen.

Just an aside, have you tried going back and forth past North in these cases, instead of full rotations?  With the trackball mapped as the calibration wheel, it doesn't matter which direction I spin it, in regards to which direction the skater turns to "re-calibrate".  Just wondering.

I tried it and when I went back and forth across north, the skater calibrated as though I had done full rotations...  Hmmm - is there something strange going on here?  Hey, wait a minute...  Maybe there IS something strange about the optic board for the calibration wheel...  I never thought much of it before, but in Windows when I spin the 720 joystick and watch as the mouse cursor moves accross the screen, the mouse doesn't act the way I would expect it to.

The primary spinner disc sends the mouse side to side across the screen like I would expect.  When one of the notches on the calibration disc is passed, the mouse moves up a pixel, then back down again.  Then the second gap is passed and the mouse moves up a pixel then back down again.  If I spin the joystick a bunch of times, the mouse doesn't continuously move up or down.  Each gap that is passed moves the mouse a pixel and returns it to it's original place again.  I don't know what the significance is there, frankly.

[u_rebelscum]

The primary spinner disc sends the mouse side to side across the screen like I would expect.  When one of the notches on the calibration disc is passed, the mouse moves up a pixel, then back down again.  Then the second gap is passed and the mouse moves up a pixel then back down again.  If I spin the joystick a bunch of times, the mouse doesn't continuously move up or down.  Each gap that is passed moves the mouse a pixel and returns it to it's original place again.  I don't know what the significance is there, frankly.

LOL.  Is Atari taking advantage of what some people run into when trying to use a different encoder wheel with sensors than the sensors were designed for?  You know, the "I hacked a spinner with a mouse, and now the mouse cursor just moves a little back and forth" problem posted once in a while here.    Sounds like old school Atari.

It even sort of makes sense, since the two wheels use the same sensors & sensor spacing, but the calibration wheel gaps are spaced twice as far apart as the primary wheel.

[Magnet_Eye]

So...uh, what's the verdict on this hack..etc? I used to rule this game! One qaurter to complete the whole bastard, all GOLD!

I want to try and play this again with a real joystick feel....but it looks like we are screwed due to lack of 720 sticks out there. What other alternatives do we have?

man, this has to be the ONLY game with this joystick, which makes it even more rare/hard to find!

I guess i could try to play it with happs optical sticks..still not as good as the original.

anyone have ideas to "emulate" the original gameplay?

 

[Lilwolf]

I've been working on a mouse -> rotation algorythm.  It works well, but there are a few different ways to do it and I haven't come up with the best one yet.  But I think this might work for the masses and make it fun.

Also, I considered purchasing an analog controller (have one, but not hacking it) and putting a round restricter plate around it (no corners) and removing the springs completely.... Then adding a ball stick instead of a real ball.

Then using the analog settings... but hack it so that if you are looking in a direction just a little, its full in that direction (ie, you don't have to be all the way at the outside to be pointing in that direction).

this might be the best solution because analog controllers are easy to hack, and they are pretty cheap (got one for 10 bucks on ebay in great shape).

but my current trouble is work... I can't spend to much more time on playing

[jerryjanis]

Wow, awesome idea...  Man, that would probably work really well, huh?

[SirPoonga]

I've been thinking of hacking a oscar spinner.

I just need to find the right type of knob

  ____
 /        \
/          \
|       ( )|
 \         /
   \----/


The ( ) is a swivel knob.  Like what is used on large truck steering wheels but alot smaller.

[rampy]

Sirp, those are often referred to as "Suicide knobs"

they are also used by some people with 1 arm to drive a car.

*Shrug*

rampy

[u_rebelscum]

So...uh, what's the verdict on this hack..etc? I used to rule this game! One qaurter to complete the whole bastard, all GOLD!

I dreamed of being that good.  Used to about get 3 silvers each with one quarter on a good day.

I want to try and play this again with a real joystick feel....but it looks like we are screwed due to lack of 720 sticks out there. What other alternatives do we have?

1) Spinner hacked to have two encoder wheels, one with only 1 or 2 gaps one one side :p
2) spinner hacked to have a switch that closes once a rotation
3) spinner with 72 gaps in the encoder wheel and the correct analog sensitivity setting, and hope they don't get out of sinc*
4) spinner with some fraction of 72 gaps and the correct sensitivity settings (ie: 36 gaps sensitivity = 2 * that of one with 72 gaps), and hope they don't get out of sinc*

* also, you'll need winmame (directX doesn't accel the mouse) or if other OS (dmame) the mouse acceleration set to none.  To semi re-sinc: pause game, turn spinner to correct position, and unpause game, or press dial_V button for a long time.

man, this has to be the ONLY game with this joystick, which makes it even more rare/hard to find!

It's not a joystick.  Just looks like one.  Think: spinner with angled handle instead of a round puck.

[kspiff]

LOL.. here's a thought.. take an Oscar spinner and somehow rig in a calibration plate.. then hot glue a finger skateboard to the top

[SirPoonga]

http://www.boteco.it/english/prodotti/prodotti.asp?categoria=Volantini%20di%20manovra&cat-eng=Control%20handweel

article 779.  That;s probably big, but something like that is what I'd be looking for then to make a hack.

[Lilwolf]

hehe, I was thinking of the suicide wheel also.  But then thinking of those small steering wheels (Oscar had??)..  But I thought those might be to big.

btw, anyone with a real 720 stick.  Could we get some real dimensions?  (stick hieight from the wood,  diameter of spin, angle of stick, ect).

But after thinking about it, I think the analog joystick would work the best with the hack.  Why?   You dont' have to worry about the reset/going out of sync.

[Xiaou2]

  True,  but also hard to perform the 720 spins in a fast way... as it would be like trying to stir cake batter really fast for a length of time.   heh

  The spinning motion is nearly effortless on a spinning device, because of the bearings and the correct angles of rotation.

 I personally havnt had the pleasure of playing a real 720 sadly.  Tho now Im pretty interested in trying to build or buy one : )  

[u_rebelscum]

btw, anyone with a real 720 stick.  Could we get some real dimensions?  (stick hieight from the wood,  diameter of spin, angle of stick, ect).

quick measurements:

1.5" ball diameter

25-30 degrees slant

2.75" disc cover to top of ball (slanted stick)
2" disc cover to center of ball (slanted sitck)

5" length shaft from pivot center to end of ball

~5.5" diameter spin (outside ball to outside ball)
~4" diameter spin (ball center)

Note: measurements taken from a disassembled controller & sighted by eye.  +- 0.5" accuracy.

[Magnet_Eye]

here is a 720 stick for sale on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=3212135839&rd=1

ends in 4 hours...

 

[Lilwolf]

And did you notice who won???

YES!

(of course, your message here might have cost me 10 bucks or so)

[Magnet_Eye]

haha..sorry man, thought i'd share. Glad it went to someone here though.

Wow, it jumped form $10 to 60 in the last hours? You snipers!!!  

[SirPoonga]

And did you notice who won???

YES!

(of course, your message here might have cost me 10 bucks or so)

as long as you use it for good and come up with an idea to reproduce it!!!

[rampy]

And did you notice who won???

YES!

(of course, your message here might have cost me 10 bucks or so)

as long as you use it for good  *snip*

I shudder at the thought of how a 720 stick could be used for evil

rampy

[Lilwolf]

> I shudder at the thought of how a 720 stick could be used for evil

hahahahaha

[jerryjanis]

Have you heard?

Mame Analog+ now supports a mouse, a 720

[SirPoonga]

I can't wait to see SirPoonga's solution to making a spinner joystick...  Or any others that people may attempt...

Actually, the idea is if someone can get me a knob like that on the spinner, and I can pick up an extra joystick somewhere (just the base abnd shaft is all I need) I will take my dremel and start working

[Lilwolf]

I took another look at my algorythms.  There where two

1) where I just keep track of the angle the mouse is moving... and go with that.  It works great, but the resolution sucks for me when you move slowly.  this is because it would move one pixel up and one to the left... and thats 45 degrees.  IE, moving fast is great... moving slow the resolution of the screen effected it.  It might not be a big deal when you can deal with mice movements without the screen resolution.

2) keep track of a center point.  This is MUCH better... but keeping track of the center point sucks again.  You have to make sure that you don't update the center location to often... when you are moving on one side of the rotation.

I will take another look at it soon.  I will send the angle version first (since it will or wont work sooner)

[Wade]

Does anyone have a DOS build of mame for this?

Wade

[jerryjanis]

On u_rebel's download page, it says, "ATM, only the win32 command line build", which I would guess means that it'll have to wait until he gets around to it.

[Aceldamor]

Does this version run with mame32?

[SirPoonga]

On u_rebel's download page, it says, "ATM, only the win32 command line build", which I would guess means that it'll have to wait until he gets around to it.

Which might not happen in urebel's case.  Anyway, Where's the source changes, in the 720 driver?  Or is there changes in the windows folder in the source?

[jerryjanis]

Oh, yeah, that's a good point, making a separate yourself build should be easy enough.  As far as I could tell from looking at it, all of the changes that he made were contained in the drivers\atarisy2.c source file.

[SirPoonga]

So in theory a dos build could be made.

[u_rebelscum]

On u_rebel's download page, it says, "ATM, only the win32 command line build", which I would guess means that it'll have to wait until he gets around to it.

Which might not happen in urebel's case.  Anyway, Where's the source changes, in the 720 driver?  Or is there changes in the windows folder in the source?

All of the 720 hacks are in the src/drivers/atarisy2.c file and can be used in any version of mame.  You can download the source and use any of the changes in the src/drivers files just fine, IIRC.

(Hmm, I guess the switch mouse axis & multiple mice features aren't in the drivers file, but they're only needed if you have the 720 encoder wheel and the 720 calibration wheel on different mice, or want to disable the calibration wheel feature.)


And yes, looks like my distributed dos and mame32 builds will have to wait for 0.67.2, sorry; taxes (BTW, I hate K-1 forms), busy weekends, mame32:analog+ bugs, and a few more additional changes I want are slowing me down.