Ipac2 VS. Ipac4

[kill9cowboy]

First off, I just discovered this community this week, and I've been really impressed.  I didn't even know people built their own cabinets.  I read Saint's book last week, and decided it would be totally worth building my first cabinet.  I have a pretty big backround in computers, mostly in Linux, but as far as cabinet building goes, this is totally new to me.

I have a question about the Ipac2 and Ipac4.

Based on the Ultimarc website, the Ipac2 has 28 inputs on it.  Do most of you find this enough for a 2 player CP?

I was thinking about building something close to the SlikStik Classic, and when I look at it, it looks like they are using plenty more than 28 inputs, although they say it is using a 26 input Ipac.



Am I right in a joystick takes 4 inputs on an Ipac?

For something similar to the SlikStik setup, will I need an Ipac4?

Thanks for dealing with my totally newbie question 

[Farmboy90]

An IPAC 2 should be plenty for a 2 player panel.

A typical 8 way, 4 way joystick will use 4 inputs each.  Each button is another input.

That slikstik panel uses a 28 input IPAC.  This is because they reuse inputs.  All the admin buttons are not required since you can get that functionality via the shift keys on the IPAC.  The middle/top joystick is probably wired to the same inputs as the P1 joystick.  The trackball and spinner buttons resuse existing inputs as well - probably the p1 buttons.

I have a P2 panel with IPAC connections consisting of 3 joysticks and 23 buttons.  I use an IPAC2 with no problems.  Again this is becasue a lot of the inputs get reused.

[Zakk]

A lot of the controls can be doubled-up.  My suggestion is a minipac, which can also control the trackball and the spinner.  I-pac 4's are really for 4 player cp's.  Oh, and don't limit yourself to the slickstik design, that seems to have a lot of extra 'unneeded' buttons.  Stick around here and you'll learn a lot, and look at the examples page.  There are a LOT of good designs out there.  

[Tiger-Heli]

There is also the KeyWiz or KeyWiz Eco from www.groovygamegear.com, which is 32 inputs.

See http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm for the (almost) full story.

[kill9cowboy]

Great!

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm definitly going to stick around, this looks like it could be one addictive hobby.

I am going to try to get a MAME front end up on one of my Linux machines this week, and start building a cab in the weeks to come.

Thanks again.

[forbiddenlyrics]

I also recommend the Key-Wiz, easy to setup and works great!

[Zakk]

I'm waiting for a key-wiz that controls the analog stuff (an all in one).  I'm definitely not knocking Randy's stuff, that's for sure!

[RandyT]

I'm waiting for a key-wiz that controls the analog stuff (an all in one).  I'm definitely not knocking Randy's stuff, that's for sure!

But if you mean support for optical controls on an "all in one", it probably won't happen.  Due to the way those controls work, it goes against my principles to share the resources of a chip responsible for dealing with them.  Just MHO.

RandyT

[markrvp]

Rather than copy the SlikStik panel, I would recommend copying the panel from Saint's book.  That design has withstood the test of time.

I've used the Ipac4, Minipac, Keywiz, and GP-Wiz encoders.  If your computer has a PS2 input, then I would highly recommend the KeyWiz encoder for your joysticks and buttons.  All of these encoders work great, though.

You can buy a trackball which already has a USB encoder installed and just plugs up to your computer's PS2 or USB port  -  OR  - you can get a trackball with a standard arcade harness and connect it to a mouse encoder which plugs into your computer.   A few of us who have tried multiple trackballs are sold on the Happ Golden Tee "Red Board" arcade ball with a mouse encoder.  The mouse encoder I would recommend is the new OptiWiz from GroovyGameGear which I was a beta tester for.  It is a very nice, inexpensive device which allows you to use the best trackball on the market.

[Zakk]

I'm waiting for a key-wiz that controls the analog stuff (an all in one).  I'm definitely not knocking Randy's stuff, that's for sure!

But if you mean support for optical controls on an "all in one", it probably won't happen.  Due to the way those controls work, it goes against my principles to share the resources of a chip responsible for dealing with them.  Just MHO.

RandyT

Just do it    

 I really want to try one of your wiz's, I just keep getting requests for these cabs with both spinners and trackballs.  I can't fault your pricing on the opti-wiz of course, I'd just like it somehow incorporated into one board.  Is there a way to merge the two, with separate cpu's?  Even if not, I don't know as if it would be that big a strain on the system to share...I mean you would never really 'tax' the system, since you would never be using 2 joysticks, 5 buttons, the trackball and spinner all at exactly the same time (even on a 2 player board).  Am I way off in this?  Personally I'd like to get my parts from a North American distributor, and not be at the mercy of DHL and all their surprise charges and bills.  However right now the minipac really is a nice all-round solution 

I'm just going to have to pull one of the empty cabs out of the garage and do a joystick only cab for someone and fire a Key-wiz into it!

[RandyT]

I can't fault your pricing on the opti-wiz of course, I'd just like it somehow incorporated into one board.  Is there a way to merge the two, with separate cpu's?  Even if not, I don't know as if it would be that big a strain on the system to share...I mean you would never really 'tax' the system, since you would never be using 2 joysticks, 5 buttons, the trackball and spinner all at exactly the same time (even on a 2 player board).  Am I way off in this?

Well, even on just a plain optical interface, the code is checking for changes while inside the transmit routines just to keep everything tight.  Just using 1 key on a device acting like a USB keyboard is going to cause it to assemble the multiple keyboard packets which it needs to complete the transaction.  This overhead is even worse if it's part of a combination device.  I'd rather not take the chance and possibly have backspin or other issues that I can't explain.

There's also the added benefit of having PS/2 compatibility with 1 device each.

And for USB, just throw an inexpensive 4 port hub inside the panel and run a faceplate to the exterior for the extra 2 ports.  This will give your customers a nice feature for easily hooking up gamepads or whathaveyou.

RandyT

[cholin]

Why wouldn't you just up the model of the chip?  Pull off something like the minipac?

I personally have never used any of your products, and actually havent used the minipac I orderred last year either, but one of the major things that sold it was that it can handle the trackball and the keyboard together.  It might be considerred stealing someone else's market, but if you offerred a combination device it would probably do very well since alot of people are anal about sticking to one company...

I got a question for you... do you code the chips yourself?

[RandyT]

Why wouldn't you just up the model of the chip?  Pull off something like the minipac?

Here's a little trivia for you.  The little processor in the Opti-Wiz uses the exact same processor core, at the exact same speed as the device you just mentioned.  It just has less memory and less I/O pins.  I dedicate all of it resources to handling the 3 axes, because that is all I feel it should be tasked with to do the job properly.  Do you know how quickly a device must be able to scan and process the readings from a rapidly spun, high-resolution encoder wheel to keep from seeing things like backspin?

Personally, I would rather offer less expensive devices with hardware dedicated to the one task for which it was designed than try to make one chip try to do everything.  It's a philosophy not everyone shares, but that's the thing about philosophies.

I got a question for you... do you code the chips yourself?

[sarcasm]
No, the cleaning lady does it between taking out the garbage and scrubbing the toilets.  We get her to do the soldering on her lunch break......
[/sarcasm]

Of course I do.  I also write the software to support it, design the circuit boards, source the components, solder, manage the web store, create the logos and the graphics, handle customer support and try to convey information I have learned in the last 20+ years doing these kinds of things to the good folks on these forums.

Tell me, was there a reason for this question?

RandyT

[mahuti]

I certainly like the low cost of the Opti-wiz. I like the idea of cheaper, less all-in-one encoders, for me anyway.

[Tiger-Heli]

Personally, I would rather offer less expensive devices with hardware dedicated to the one task for which it was designed than try to make one chip try to do everything.  It's a philosophy not everyone shares, but that's the thing about philosophies.

I agree with this. . .  I don't see the point in adding another model line, or paying for a trackball interface for a joystick/buttons panel, or vice versa.

I got a question for you... do you code the chips yourself?

Tell me, was there a reason for this question?

I can't speak for Cholin (even though I am, but then again, I'm also RandyT according to some members of the board), but I took it as simple curiosity.  Not everyone here will know whether the chips have to be programmed or if they come pre-programmed and you just pick out one that will do what you need and then design a board and connector layouts and mount it together.

[Zakk]

I think I second that, (speaking for cholin too).  It's pretty impressive to be able to code and produce a chip yourself!  I get confused trying to figure out which way a plug goes in a wall sometimes, much less ever hope to be able to pull off something like that!

I guess (for me) the only real benefit to an all-in-one board is simplicity of repair.  I keep a spare one in my tackle box, and if a machine goes flukey, I can just swap it out.  However, I suppose it isn't that crazy to keep 2 boards on hand, especially at those rock bottom prices[/sales pitch]

Dangit, now people are going to think that I'M Randy too! 

[kelemvor]

What is the difference between the IPAC2 and the KeyWiz 1.5?  Like how do they work, how do they connect, etc.  Do they both do the exact same things or does one do things the other doesn't and vice versa...?

[Tiger-Heli]

What is the difference between the IPAC2 and the KeyWiz 1.5?  Like how do they work, how do they connect, etc.  Do they both do the exact same things or does one do things the other doesn't and vice versa...?

Search the forum or read my page linked above.

I-PAC/2 supports USB and an ACTIVE keyboard Pass-thru.
KeyWiz is 32 inputs, I-PAC/2 is 28, (I-PAC VE is 32).
KeyWiz is SDRAM, I-PAC is EEPROM.
I-PAC supports keyboard LED's.
I-PAC has 27 shift buttons, KeyWiz has 24.
Shift function is implemented slightly differently between them.
One-button shift adapters are simpler to implement on the KeyWiz.

Probably several differences that I left out.  Basically, they do the same things, just a different implementation.  FWIW . . .

[cholin]

Little harsh Randy?

That is the thing about philosophies.... everyones got a different opinion, and since you make the product, yours counts... I get it.  My philosophy is that if it's got the power, why not use it?  I dont mean completely re-do anything, I just think that there should be 3 lines:  optical; digital; and then the mix of both, which costs more, but less than both of the others put together....

Tell me, was there a reason for this question?

Obviously...  Im personally doing alot of coding for microchips in C and I figured hey, maybe Randy knows what hes talking about!  Wonder if he codes them himself or maybe he pays someone to do it for him, like alot of other companies do.  So now how obvious was that?  You think everyone codes their own chips?  Doesnt happen that way.

I can't speak for Cholin (even though I am, but then again, I'm also RandyT according to some members of the board), but I took it as simple curiosity.  Not everyone here will know whether the chips have to be programmed or if they come pre-programmed and you just pick out one that will do what you need and then design a board and connector layouts and mount it together.

Exactly, simple curiousity... interest even!  I know they do have to be programmed but I wonderred who actually does it.  Always nice to ask something as simple as "do you code them yourself" and get a smart assed answer like someones a complete idiot because they asked you something completely understandable.

[Tiger-Heli]

Little harsh Randy?

I thought so too, but then I'm him, so . . .

I just think that there should be 3 lines:  optical; digital; and then the mix of both, which costs more, but less than both of the others put together....

What RandyT said (and I'm surprised he did, but now that he has, I can comment) is basically (my words, not his (unless you think we're the same person)) that he thinks the mini-pac processor is overtaxed, and he feels he has chosen the proper chips for the proper task.  Sure, he could come up with a larger PCB and mount the Opti-Wiz and Key-Wiz components to them and sell it as a Combi-Wiz, but there wouldn't be any cost savings or component savings.  (He could also probably come up with a single chip that was as powerful as both the Key-Wiz and Opti-Wiz chips, develop code for it, and make a single chip board that would save some space and possibly cost, but I think he would rather work on new projects than create something that would just be the same as selling two of his current products.)

Always nice to ask something as simple as "do you code them yourself" and get a smart assed answer like someones a complete idiot because they asked you something completely understandable.

OTOH, in Randy's defense - he takes a lot of flack on these boards from people wanting to know the in's and out's of every product he introduces - how does it work?, why does it work? would it still work if I suspended it in a vat of electric jello and stood on my head when using it? (well, maybe not), but . . . If I buy a new computer, I walk into the big electronics store and pick up the machine and take it home.  If I asked if the computer manufacturer programmed the graphics chip themselves - the sales guy wouldn't know, and the computer tech support would likely tell me that that was proprietary data and they wouldn't divulge it without a subpeona.  In that sense, you are lucky you even got a real answer on a public forum!!!

[RandyT]

Little harsh Randy?

Well, you are coming on like you know the ins and outs of these things and operating under false assumptions.  No big deal, lots pf people do that.  But when you call my work into question as part of these improper assumptions, in a public forum, you're likely to not get the same respect out of me I try to afford others. Tactful questions are more likely to get tactful responses.

That is the thing about philosophies.... everyones got a different opinion, and since you make the product, yours counts... I get it.  My philosophy is that if it's got the power, why not use it?  I dont mean completely re-do anything, I just think that there should be 3 lines:  optical; digital; and then the mix of both, which costs more, but less than both of the others put together....

So get on with it, man!  And when your customers start complaining about backspin on your optical interface, jitter on your analog interface and missed or stuck keys on the rest, you might well find yourself with an entirely different philosophy.  Until you get to the point where you have to make those kinds of design decisions, your "philosophy" is really more an opinion that really isn't based on an awful lot.  You haven't even used the device you are telling me to pattern mine after

Tell me, was there a reason for this question?

Obviously...  Im personally doing alot of coding for microchips in C and I figured hey, maybe Randy knows what hes talking about!

Learn assembly.  If you want maximum speed out of your work, you will need it.  All GGG interfaces are coded in pure assembly for this reason.  C (or heaven forbid BASIC) on microcontrollers is slower and less optimized for size.

Wonder if he codes them himself or maybe he pays someone to do it for him, like alot of other companies do.  So now how obvious was that?  You think everyone codes their own chips?  Doesnt happen that way.

Cholin, you have been around here long enough to at least have a clue what GGG does and my involvement with it. You post in threads where I talk about writing code.  Did you forget or don't you read my posts?  That question was like someone asking if you were homosexual after you know they have seen you with your wife and 2 kids (not that there's anything wrong with that)

Anyway, sorry I was rough on you.  If you have any other personal questions, try email next time and I'll be happy to discuss things with you.

RandyT

[brophog]

Who cares. His products work, and from what I can tell he provides a good service to his customers. I'm not sure why there has to be animosity on this board about either Randy's work.

[Tiger-Heli]

That question was like someone asking if you were homosexual after you know they have seen you with your wife and 2 kids (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I heard stories about stuff like that though, Jerry Springer Show, or sth.  NTTIAWWT - Wait, there is something wrong with that, well . . .

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm not sure why there has to be animosity on this board about either Randy's work.

Either Randy's? (Am I the other one!) You mean there is animosity toward my work?  (Wait a minute, I never work, I'm always on here.  If people don't like it, I can just take my ball and go home - then again - I'd probably stick around regardless of what the community thinks.

Actually, I think you meant Randy or Andy's (www.ultimarc.com) work.  (And I think I'll leave it at that - something about sleeping dogs comes to mind, but I not sure what it was . . .)

[brophog]

It was actually typed that way and the forum fairies stole Andy's name.

Unless there are two Randy's.........

[cholin]

There are two Randy's, but Im not quite sure about there being forum fairies......

And for the record, Im not questioning any of his products!  Where do people get this?  Its like starting rumors about stuff, started as a simple question.