Getting leaf buttons into 1-1/8" metal CP hole?

[quarterback]

The leaf buttons are slightly larger than microswitch buttons and, while you can pressure them into wooden cps, they won't fit into my metal cp that's pre-drilled with 1-1/8" holes

I could buy a step-drill-bit, but to get one this size, it'd cost me $50+ (edit: I did find some for ~$30, but it's still a little more than I'd want to spend)

What's the solution here?  Do I sand down the sides of my buttons or try and file out the hole?  I'm leaning towards sanding down the buttons, but either solution seems wrought with potential disaster where I end up with a flat spot on either the side of the buttons or the hole.

Anybody done this or have some tips for me?
Thanks

[Level42]

I used a Dremel (clone) to do this. Works kinda ok, but you need a VERY steady hand. One slide and the top of your metal is screwed. I taped off the top, but it didn't prevent a few small scratches.

[NoOne=NBA=]

You don't need to enlarge the entire hole.
All you need to do is make room for the bumps on the edges of the buttons.
A Dremel should do that pretty easily.

[19rjs99]

I agree, use a dremel with a grinding bit. I would also suggest the router base as that would keep you from going nuts on the top of the CP.

[quarterback]

  I was really hoping somebody would say "use ____ to just make the buttons skinnier", because I'm a little leery of going at my brand new metal CP with a dremel.

All you need to do is make room for the bumps on the edges of the buttons.

Yeah, but it's not just the bumps.  The entire "ring" of the button is slightly too big around.  In wood, they can be jammed in, but in a metal CP, it's no dice.


I can't remember the exact diameter that the leaf buttons are, but I'm pretty sure the topic of leaf-buttons in a 1-1/8" hole has come up before. 

[quarterback]

Here's another thread regarding this.  The leafs need a 1-3/16ths hole, and Knievel adds this (which I've found to be a true statement):

I've only used the translucent leafs, I can tell you there's no way you'll get them into a 1 1/8" hole.

[hypernova]

fwiw, i have a wood panel, and needed to enlarge my holes the same way you need to.

all i did was take a router with a straight bit (i guess that's the name of the bit.)  i thought i might lose control when turning it on, but it wasn't a problem at all.  i just hold the router above the cp, then after turning it on (waiting for the initial "kick") lowered it into the hole and slowly scraped away the sides.  not nearly as difficult as it seems.  got a perfect fit with all 20 holes, no problem.  i DID cut those little "wings" underneath the button bezels, though.  hafta.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Yeah, but it's not just the bumps.  The entire "ring" of the button is slightly too big around.  In wood, they can be jammed in, but in a metal CP, it's no dice.

I hadn't really thought about it until now because the holes I've drilled with a 1-1/8" bit have always worked.
I just measured one, and they are actually about 1-5/32", rather than a true 1-1/8".
I just naturally ream them while drilling, by rocking the bit.

[Stingray]

I had this problem with one of my panels. A semi-circular shaped metal file will open them up the the right size with a minimum of elbow grease. Probably 30 seconds of filing per hole was plenty.

-S

[Grasshopper]

I found it far easier to simply sand down the bumps on the sides of the buttons. As a precaution I covered the visible parts of the button with tape whilst doing the sanding in case my hand slipped. It was very easy and only took a few minutes per button.

[Fuzi]

I found it far easier to simply sand down the bumps on the sides of the buttons. As a precaution I covered the visible parts of the button with tape whilst doing the sanding in case my hand slipped. It was very easy and only took a few minutes per button.

Yup.

Don't bring the mountain to Mohammed, simply draw some cartoons.

[quarterback]

I found it far easier to simply sand down the bumps on the sides of the buttons.

But, again, it's not just the bumps that are the issue. 

The entire leaf-button itself is larger around than a microswitch button.  In a wooden panel, they can be jammed into the same holes because the wood will give.  In a metal panel with holes that are exactly 1-1/8", they will not fit, even with the bumps sanded off.

[CheffoJeffo]

I can't remember the exact diameter that the leaf buttons are, but I'm pretty sure the topic of leaf-buttons in a 1-1/8" hole has come up before. 

I thought I'd mention, since QB may be getting tired of saying the same thing and wondering why nobody is listening to him, that most of the leaf buttons in my formerly-big-bag-of-buttons (and it was a big bag) fit in a 1-1/8" hole in a metal panel once you adjust for the "bumps" on the side. So, those who are suggesting that leaf buttons should fit after removal of the bumps (I prefer to notch the panel as it keeps the buttons from rotating lose) aren't making it up.

On the other hand, I did say most ... and I tend to believe what Knievel says, so there are buttons out there that won't fit.

I know this doesn't really help you, but the "just remove the tabs"/"it's the whole cap" roundabout was making me dizzy.

I would pick a sample button and sand it down as a test (is easier to chuck the button if you decide to go another way).

Good Luck.

Cheers.

[Stingray]

Hello... Metal file... 30 seconds.

I'm profoundly lazy. I don't joke about things being easy. This is easy.

-S

[quarterback]

I know this doesn't really help you, but the "just remove the tabs"/"it's the whole cap" roundabout was making me dizzy.

  Well, I've tried most of the buttons in my "not quite huge bag o' buttons" and they simply don't fit.  Here's are some pics.  You all will just have to take my word for it when I tell you that this is jammed in a far as it can possibly go. 

For this button, I literally laid it top-down on the counter and used all of my body weight against the CP to try and force the button into the 1-1/8" hole.  These are the results: 

[quarterback]

I would pick a sample button and sand it down as a test (is easier to chuck the button if you decide to go another way).

That's my thought.  I've got all these red white and blue buttons that I'll probably never use, so I figured I'd just sand/file them down until I got them to fit, but the translucent ones I've just ordered... well, I'd rather not ruin them, so I figured I'd see how the opaque ones went.  My concern here is that the physical plastic of the two types of the buttons are different and may not react the same.

Hello... Metal file... 30 seconds.

Easy for you to say, it's not your metal cp.  As I've stated, I'm not interested in a lopsided hole, and without a circular metal file that's large enough to completely fill the hole, I'm not sure that taking a metal file to the edges is going to work well.

I think the best solution is to file down the buttons and hope for the best.  Of course, this thread may be completely moot.   As I stated in that thread, it's too bad that I just ordered a bunch of non-CP-fitting-leaf-buttons one day before the appearance of the leaf-switches that will attach to microswitch buttons (which WILL fit into my CP)

[Kremmit]

You know, a little tiny bit of imperfection when you're enlarging the holes won't ever show, as the button bezel will hide it anyway.

OTOH, if you leave them alone, they'll still be the right size when/if you decide to change to micro buttons.

[quarterback]

You know, a little tiny bit of imperfection when you're enlarging the holes won't ever show, as the button bezel will hide it anyway.

OTOH, if you leave them alone, they'll still be the right size when/if you decide to change to micro buttons.

Yeah, as one might guess from the fact that I went though the trouble of installing threaded inserts so my cocktail cab could be disassembled and reassembled (even though I know I'll probably never disassemble it) I like to keep my options open.

I know it may be a little crazy to some, but I'm the kind of guy who doesn't "measure twice and cut once", I "measure twice, ponder the possibilities, measure a couple more times, think about it some more and then finally measure 4 more times before cutting"

I started the thread with the hopes that somebody had a great/easy/effective answer that I hadn't thought of yet and now I find myself thinking I may be buying a whole bunch of new stuff from ponyboy instead of trying to jam all my leaf buttons into these holes anyway

[quarterback]

I came up with an idea in my sleep last night.  Take a microswitch button (which will fit nicely into the holes), wrap it with some sand paper (silicon carbide perhaps) and spin.  When it spins freely, maybe wrap another layer around until the ~1/16th of an inch of material is gone and the leaf buttons will fit.

Note: I haven't tried this, it just popped into my head as a way to slightly enlarge the hole in an even manner without having to buy any new tools.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Emery cloth wrapped around a drill bit should work as well--and be quicker.

You don't need to take a full 1/16" off, unless you plan to keep all the tabs on the buttons.
That's just the next "normal" size drill bit up.
If you take the tabs off, the actual enlargement needed is between 1/64" and 1/32".

[DrewKaree]

SONOFA......well, I just lost my reply

Stingray's idea is THE easiest, but I think you're looking for a peace-of-mind solution.  Mebbe this'll sound do-able to you.

Find a dowel.  Inch and a half or so.  If you CAN'T find one that large, you can buy a chunk of handrail from HD, it should be a lot larger than you need, but that'll just mean a tad more work for you.

Take a screw and run it into one end of the dowel.  Chuck that screw into your drill.  Take a belt sander or equivalent and spin the whole thing using the drill to keep it even-ish and sand at an angle to make a "sharpened pencil" shape. 

When you've got enough done where you can fit a good-sized chunk through your CP, wrap emery paper around that and use that to round out your hole little by little until the button fits into your CP. 

You can also use a lathe or run it at a 45 across a tablesaw blade to help speed stock removal if you have access to either of those. 

Again, Stingray's idea is WAY easier, but you can tell him you'll give HIS idea a shot when he enlarged his midway coin slots to accept Santoro's tokens

(hey -S, I'm an asshat, ain't I? )

[Grasshopper]

If the cp was originally designed to accept modern microswitch buttons then perhaps the holes aren't actually 1-1/8". According to IL's website the microswitch buttons are actually designed to fit a 28mm hole which is slightly less than 1-1/8".

1-1/8" = 2.8575mm

I've bought leaf buttons from two different sources and both types will definitely fit a 1-1/8" hole once the bumps have been removed although it is a very tight fit.

Maybe you've got Nintendo buttons. I've heard they were deliberately made in a non-standard size so that other manufacturer's buttons couldn't easily be fitted to Nintendo cabs.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I've bought leaf buttons from two different sources and both types will definitely fit a 1-1/8" hole once the bumps have been removed although it is a very tight fit.

I just measured a couple Midway CPs that I have.
The holes in them are NOT 1-1/8".
They are 1-5/32 (approx 29mm), and then have the notches for the non-tamper bumps.

Maybe you've got Nintendo buttons. I've heard they were deliberately made in a non-standard size so that other manufacturer's buttons couldn't easily be fitted to Nintendo cabs.

Nintendo made their buttons a hair smaller than industry standard.
If they'd made them bigger, then anyone's buttons would have gone in their cabs.

[quarterback]

I've bought leaf buttons from two different sources and both types will definitely fit a 1-1/8" hole once the bumps have been removed although it is a very tight fit.

A very tight fit in a wood CP or in a metal CP?

I'm not debating whether or not leafs can be jammed into a 1-1/8" hole in a wooden CP.  Yes, all of my leafs can be pressed into the not-100%-precisely-drilled-1-1/8"-soft-wood-CP that I have.   But NONE of my 40+ leafs will fit into the metal CP.  Period.

I have leafs from three completely different sources.  I have the ones that came in my Konami cab.  I have the ones that I bought on B/S/T, I have the translucents that I just bought.  I PROMISE you that these will not fit into a 1-1/8" METAL hole.

If the cp was originally designed to accept modern microswitch buttons then perhaps the holes aren't actually 1-1/8". According to IL's website the microswitch buttons are actually designed to fit a 28mm hole which is slightly less than 1-1/8".

Indeed.  And, just for the record, the microswitch buttons fit into these holes with no problem.  In fact, there is even some 'give' where I can slide the microswitch buttons to the right and left before the plastic threads hit the edges of the metal hole.  So, my guess is that you're correct.  The holes are 1-1/8" and the microswitches are slightly smaller.

But the leafs are not.  They are demonstrably larger and too big for 1-1/8" holes.


I may have to get Kneivel in here.

[quarterback]

Emery cloth wrapped around a drill bit should work as well--and be quicker.

That's a good idea.  My concern would be the potential scratches on top of of the CP since the emery cloth wouldn't be the precise diameter of the hole.   That's why I was originally thinking about using the button as a structural element.  But yeah, using a drill would definitely be faster.

Find a dowel.  Inch and a half or so. 

Take a screw and run it into one end of the dowel.  Chuck that screw into your drill.  Take a belt sander or equivalent and spin the whole thing using the drill to keep it even-ish and sand at an angle to make a "sharpened pencil" shape. 

That's a really good idea.  Basically creating a 'step-drill-grinding-bit'.   I thought about this last night (in my sleep) and actually decided that there might be a very similar but even easier way.  I may be able to wrap emery cloth or sand paper right around the chuck of my drill.  I'm not sure if the taper to the tip is angled enough, but it would be the same principle but save me a couple steps.

Stingray's idea is THE easiest,

I'm still not 100% convinced that this is the way for me.  I spent some time working down the diameter of a leaf button last night.  I started with 60-grit sandpaper.   I then moved to my dremel with a grinder/sander bit.  I then moved to a diamond bit and finally to a metal file.  It was amazing to me how long it took to even get close to the diameter I needed... and that's on soft plastic.  I spent about 30+ minutes on it and got it so I could get it most of the way into the CP.  But even with the dremel, it took a lot of time and I ended up with flat spots and it still doesn't fit all the way in. 

I feel that taking a file to the cold-rolled-steel of my CP isn't going to be as fast as Stingray managed to get it done.  I'm not saying that it took him more than 30-seconds, and I'm sure that the circular nature of the file is a big help, but based on how long it took me to 'shrink' the plastic buttons, 30-sec per hole seems like a dream.

But, for the record, I haven't avoided that method because I don't think it will work  I haven't tried it because (a) I don't have a semi-circular file and (b) I'm still not 100% sure I want the holes to be bigger.  I'm still contemplating using micro-switch buttons (which WILL fit) and the new leaf-attachments.   My debate at this point is about how much money I want to spend, plus the fact that I just got these leaf translucents and they look AWESOME!

[Knievel]

Hey QB I've actually had many e-mails on this subject. Almost every person that tries my idea runs into this problem. Looking back I should've brought more attention to the fact that the leaf buttons are bigger than a standard button.

I have worked with leaf buttons on CP's since my Neon Mame and none of them have fit into a 1 1/8" hole, in MDF. Some people here seem to disagree so they must have different buttons than me..and you. Possibly they are non-wico or an older style as I buy nothing but new buttons, directly from Wico.

Anyway what you were asking for was a solution, I suggest a sanding drum that is inflatable. You insert it into the hole, pump it up, and sand away. I think mine was about $30 though so you'll probably just want to go at those holes with a hand file as suggested. I'd be happy to ream them out for you if you want to ship the CP to me.

[whammoed]

Not that its needed, but I got some leaf buttons in from Bob Roberts and I happen to have both a 1 1/8 and a 1 3/16 greenlee punch.  This means I can test on the exact size holes with no paint or powder coat to change the diameter.
Results:
First pic shows both holes.  The button definitely won't fix in the 1 1/8 hole, but not by much.  Less than a 1/32 and it would go (except for the security tabs.)  Button won't fully seat in a 1 3/16 hole until you file out the triangles for the security tabs shown in second pic.(they don't need to be that big)
In the future I will always cut a 1 3/16 hole in metal even if I don't plan on using leaf.  The microswitch buttons still fit fine in the larger hole and it keeps your options easily open.

Hope this helps in some way.

BTW, leaf buttons rock.  I had forgotten how a button should feel.  I hope those leaf mods for the microswitch buttons ponyboy has feel like these do.

[quarterback]

Thanks for the post, and the pics, whammoed.   I was intrigued by the "greenlee punch" you mentioned and thought "Hmmm.. maybe I should get one of those!"..... and then I saw the price      A little pricey for my couple CPs

I'll be interested in hearing the first reviews of the new ponyboy leafs.

[whammoed]

Thanks for the post, and the pics, whammoed.   I was intrigued by the "greenlee punch" you mentioned and thought "Hmmm.. maybe I should get one of those!"..... and then I saw the price      A little pricey for my couple CPs

I'll be interested in hearing the first reviews of the new ponyboy leafs.

They are pricey new, but since they pretty much last forever, get them on ebay.  I have paid anywhere from $8 to $20 for them.  They make really nice holes with no burs to file down.

[quarterback]

hey are pricey new, but since they pretty much last forever, get them on ebay.  I have paid anywhere from $8 to $20 for them.  They make really nice holes with no burs to file down.

Just to make sure, I'm looking for something that looks like this



More than something like this



Is that correct?
Thanks w'

[whammoed]

The kind I have are the draw stud type like in the second picture.  You drill a pilot hole, assemble the punch through it, and tighten the draw stud bolt till the hole is punched.
Here is an auction for one, it does include the draw stud, although it isn't in the picture.
http://cgi.ebay.com/greenlee-730-radio-chassis-punch-1-3-16-like-new_W0QQitemZ7587954363QQcategoryZ73116QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[quarterback]

After much internal debate about buying new translucent buttons and ponyboy's new leaf-switches, I decided to take a whack at my CP.

I went out and bought a $5.99 rounded metal file and went to work.  I didn't have the 30-seconds luck that Stingray seemed to have, but after about 20-minutes of filing I was able to fit one my leaf buttons into one of the CP's holes.   Since it was much work, I decided I'd try the dremel... well, I had the same misfortune as Level42  and scratched up my new CP     It's not terrible, but it put me off the dremel idea, particularly since it didn't seem to be doing enough anyway.

So I went back to work with the file.  About 30+ minutes later I had two more of my CP's holes widened enough to fit my translucent leafs.    I took a break for about an hour, because my arm was getting sore, and then came back and did the three holes on the other CP.

I used the dremel to 'smooth' out the holes and take care of any little burrs and, sure enough, it hopped out and scuffed up my second CP as well.  ARRGHGHH!   Actually, neither scratch is terrible, but they're annoying nonetheless. 

In any case, the translucents are in the CP!   I still have to figure out exactly how I'm going to light them.  I'm not sure if I'm going to do the full-on Kneivel method because I'd like to get the thing built, but we'll see...

[lkench]

This might be a "duh" observation, but to avoid scratching the top of a control panel, why not just turn it upside down and do the grinding/trimming/etc from the backside?  That way if you slip, you just slip onto the part no one ever sees.

-lkench

[whammoed]

This might be a "duh" observation, but to avoid scratching the top of a control panel, why not just turn it upside down and do the grinding/trimming/etc from the backside?  That way if you slip, you just slip onto the part no one ever sees.

-lkench

Well, its too late now regardless.   qb, I had a couple imperfect panels before too, I just gave them a misting of spray paint and they were good as new.  Do you think that is a possibility here?

[quarterback]

Absolutely, to both previous posts

Yeah, I could have done them from the bottom side, but the 'rough' edges would be on the wrong side.  I mean, I'm sure I could smooth them out, but I filed/dremmeled from the top->down because it made for a smoother top side.

And, yeah, whammoed is right. I can probably 'mist' the top with a bit of black spray paint to cover up my imperfections.   And, actually, I have some of the parts-express 'vinyl' that I have contemplated as a backup solution.  I mean, I can always cover my previously-virginal-powdercoated-steel cps with some kind of more resistant covering.  It's not a huge deal,  I just wish I hadn't messed them up in the first place.

[Grasshopper]

I apologise for being slightly off-topic, but does anyone here know a cheap source for those knockout punch kits? I want to make some joystick mounting plates and those things would make life a lot easier.

[whammoed]

I apologise for being slightly off-topic, but does anyone here know a cheap source for those knockout punch kits? I want to make some joystick mounting plates and those things would make life a lot easier.

Ebay will be your cheapest source.