12-way rotary - current state of the world

[RobotronNut]

there are so many statements being made by so many people, that i'm having trouble figuring out where we really stand. i'm willing to do some software work, if necessary, in order to make ikari warriors work 100% properly with the druin's interface i have on order, but i'd be even more happy if i could just use some version of mame that already supports it.

could those of you who know post definitive information about which games are working properly in which versions of mame using which interfaces?

since recollections can sometimes be fuzzy, and bugs can sometimes creep into later software versions undetected, it would be most helpful to hear things like, "i play game XXX on MameAnalog+ version YYY using ZZZ interface and can confirm that it works perfectly with no lost or extra rotations."

[rdagger]

I got Ikari working today:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=49295.msg480249#msg480249

[RobotronNut]

OK, I finally got MAME Analog+ working with my rotary interface so now it is exactly 1 rotation for every click of the LS-30.

(that was referring to Ikari Warriors running on MameAnalog+ 0.83.2)

excellent news!

can anyone confirm any other rotary games to be working with exactly one rotation in MameAnalog+ 0.83.2 ?

[gamer4ever745]

I wish there was a better standard...i.e.  a direct setting for the sensitivity!  I guess it depends on the controls, but annoying nonetheless.

[mahuti]

It's not about the sensitivity, it's about the fact that the controls are not correctly implimented in MAME.

[unclet]

This is in no way suppose to sound rude ..... it was just something I was wondering about ......

so ..... why is the Mame team putting a lot of effort towards getting CHD games emulated at the present time, when issues like the one above still exist in Mame?  I was told that most CHD games will not even run on the fastest computer available today, so why not fix stuff which most people consider problems in Mame first?

Just curious.....

[SirPoonga]

http://www.mame.net/mamefaq.html#g15

[Minwah]

http://www.mame.net/mamefaq.html#g15

Unforunately (with regard to the latter part of that answer) the MAMEdev don't seem particularly interested in having these issues fixed...in fact they don't even consider it broken/wrong, which it clearly is.

Edit: thinking about it I'm pretty sure Howard fixed a bunch of input issues to help with progression on controls.dat...IIRC a few were accepted but many refused.

[Dav]

This is in no way suppose to sound rude ..... it was just something I was wondering about ......

so ..... why is the Mame team putting a lot of effort towards getting CHD games emulated at the present time, when issues like the one above still exist in Mame?  I was told that most CHD games will not even run on the fastest computer available today, so why not fix stuff which most people consider problems in Mame first?

Just curious.....

It's really very simple and has been discussed many times over the years.  If the inputs in the official version were changed to work with arcade machines devs would no longer be able to test or fix the games.   That's what derivative builds are for.   And just so you know most people do not consider this a problem.

BTW using 24 inputs for a pair of ls-30's strikes me as just short of insane.  Run them through an encoder first and get down to 8 at least.  Seems like it would be a lot easier though to change mame to use druin's interface correctly as you would have to change mame either way.

[markrvp]

BTW using 24 inputs for a pair of ls-30's strikes me as just short of insane.

How is that any different from the rest of the money we spend on this hobby? 

That would still be cheaper than buying an original Ikari Warriors game.

[RobotronNut]

If the inputs in the official version were changed to work with arcade machines devs would no longer be able to test or fix the games.   That's what derivative builds are for.

it would be satisfactory if there were support for multiple input devices, controlled by compile-time flags. the "official" build could be whatever the mame devs want, and the rest of us could make alternate choices, but there would be only one body of source code.

the problem with the current situation is that any change that the mame devs refuse to accept, but is needed by somebody, requires on-going parallel development and re-merging. for example, mame analog+ adds much value, but it appears that the developer who did all this work does not have the time to continually re-merge it with the official build. if he doesn't keep doing this, it will fall by the wayside as time goes by.

on the other hand, if his changes were in the official build, users who need his work would get the benefit of all future mame work, with little to no on-going work.

the same can be said for every other derivative build.

a "second best" approach would be to roll as many derivative builds as we can into one, so the on-going maintenance doesn't need to be duplicated by many different people.

[RobotronNut]

back to the opriginal topic -

if anyone has more info about exactly which rotary games are working in which versions of mame, please post here. so far, we've only heard about ikari warriors, which works in MameAnalog+ 0.83.2.

[MikeQ]

a "second best" approach would be to roll as many derivative builds as we can into one, so the on-going maintenance doesn't need to be duplicated by many different people.

Off topic again, sorry.

It is a given that people who develop custom versions of mame will at some point grow tired of the support, run out of time, go on to other hobbies, etc...

An advantage to the above suggestion is that you have a pool of people who can pick up work when someone leaves the team.  You don't have to halt a project at 0.83 of MAME because someone grew tired.  Another advantage is that MAMEdevs might take a group of developers more seriously if they looked like a cohesive team with some direction.  As individuals, we just look to them like a bunch of whiners that want to play games without contributing.

edit spelling.

[Kremmit]

a "second best" approach would be to roll as many derivative builds as we can into one, so the on-going maintenance doesn't need to be duplicated by many different people.

I think that's more or less what TheGatesOfBill did with NoNameMAME.  I believe it got to be too much work, collecting all the different code variations every single time a new MAME version came out and then re-compiling them.

I'd love to see a BYOAC-MAME build, with all the controller inputs fixed- are Howard's input fixes available anywhere?  But who's going to do it?

It might be easier to establish a .dif file library, making it easier for people to pick and choose the features they want in a roll-your-own compile. 

[Minwah]

It's really very simple and has been discussed many times over the years.  If the inputs in the official version were changed to work with arcade machines devs would no longer be able to test or fix the games. 

I'm sure you are right...but at the same time that argument is bull.  Making MAME work with original hardware (as it should by their accuracy and 'its not for playing games' goal) does not mean it will not work with normal PC hardware.  For most parts our arcade controls are only interfaced as keys, mice and joysticks anyway...controls which everyone has.

That's what derivative builds are for.

Why should this be in derivative builds?  IMO the poor handling of controls is in direct violation of the goals the MAMEdev have set themselves.

And just so you know most people do not consider this a problem.

Most people do not consider it a problem as they want to play the games and couldn't care less about how the original hardware worked.  Which is exactly my point.

[Xiaou2]

 I dont think it would be a problem to allow more than one way to set up a driver.  For example, to allow the current method of shifting, and adding an optional method which mimmics the arcade hardware with constant hold down.

 The problem mostly lies is submissions.  Nobody seems to know how to write code that the mame devs consider clean enough to be excepted..  at least, thats how it appears to me.

 And since the devs think the emulation of the CPU's are the only important aspect.. then they tend not to care to fix the important inputs.   Some games have ingenious  controllers.. and these are just as important to document as the PCB's themselves.   

 Hopefully someone will partake in that, as well as trying to submit "Dual purpose" working drivers to the Devs.

 

[Tiger-Heli]

It's really very simple and has been discussed many times over the years.  If the inputs in the official version were changed to work with arcade machines devs would no longer be able to test or fix the games. 

I'm sure you are right...but at the same time that argument is bull.  Making MAME work with original hardware (as it should by their accuracy and 'its not for playing games' goal) does not mean it will not work with normal PC hardware.  For most parts our arcade controls are only interfaced as keys, mice and joysticks anyway...controls which everyone has.

Agreed!!!  OTOH, I believe Dav is a MAMEdev, and having their presence and opinions on the board can only be a good thing.

But let me go back to my famous Frontline/Ikari comparison -

Dev's can't test/fix Frontline, unless they have the original hardware (doubtful), or have an 8-way joystick hooked up, and a helper to hold it always pointing in one direction, and only rotate it to the next consecutive direction.

Dev's could have hooked up twelve inputs to test Ikari, using a keyboard.  (It's just an extension of the above argument.  Sure, it would be tough with a helper to remember that from Position 1 you could only go to Position 0 or Position 2, but they could wire in a 12-position switch without buying the original hardware . . .

[Lilwolf]

I would personally love to see the input system changed in mame... something like this.

The driver connects to a raw driver... This is if you had the original hardware.... described this way...  12way to 12inputs, 720 to an optical type interface, starwars to an analog with ranges...

Then there would be real world devices.  (so you would say, I'm using a mouse and 4 buttons or something)...

Then there would be converters which would convert the real world values into the raw drivers....

And all of them could be configured seperately...  or used the defaults....

So someone could write a converter that would take a mouse input to a joystick if you want... and it would work in all joystick games... not sure how useful it would be.

But the best would be is we could have direct connects for all devices.  So 720 would still work with original (including reset north opto)...

Just seems like they way it should be...  And allow the developers to worry about emulation, but not how people might want to play them.  Let others do that.

[Tiger-Heli]

I would personally love to see the input system changed in mame... something like this.

The driver connects to a raw driver... This is if you had the original hardware.... described this way...  12way to 12inputs, 720 to an optical type interface, starwars to an analog with ranges...

Then there would be real world devices.  (so you would say, I'm using a mouse and 4 buttons or something)...

Then there would be converters which would convert the real world values into the raw drivers....

And all of them could be configured seperately...  or used the defaults....

So someone could write a converter that would take a mouse input to a joystick if you want... and it would work in all joystick games... not sure how useful it would be.

But the best would be is we could have direct connects for all devices.  So 720 would still work with original (including reset north opto)...

Just seems like they way it should be...  And allow the developers to worry about emulation, but not how people might want to play them.  Let others do that.

Sounds like a good plan to me!

[Dav]

It's really very simple and has been discussed many times over the years.  If the inputs in the official version were changed to work with arcade machines devs would no longer be able to test or fix the games. 

I'm sure you are right...but at the same time that argument is bull.  Making MAME work with original hardware (as it should by their accuracy and 'its not for playing games' goal) does not mean it will not work with normal PC hardware.  For most parts our arcade controls are only interfaced as keys, mice and joysticks anyway...controls which everyone has.

Agreed!!!  OTOH, I believe Dav is a MAMEdev, and having their presence and opinions on the board can only be a good thing.

But let me go back to my famous Frontline/Ikari comparison -

Dev's can't test/fix Frontline, unless they have the original hardware (doubtful), or have an 8-way joystick hooked up, and a helper to hold it always pointing in one direction, and only rotate it to the next consecutive direction.

Dev's could have hooked up twelve inputs to test Ikari, using a keyboard.  (It's just an extension of the above argument.  Sure, it would be tough with a helper to remember that from Position 1 you could only go to Position 0 or Position 2, but they could wire in a 12-position switch without buying the original hardware . . .

First let me say I don't speak for mamedev and have little input in their decisions.  I only work on drivers for 8 bit games and haven't touched inputs in 5 years.  I went through and changed all the shifters to work correctly in my pole cab back then, but I haven't touched a mame cab in years. 

You're wrong about frontline.  I can easily play it by mapping the right controls to be the same as the left   If I want to play it correctly I use a for button 2 and the space bar for shoot.  You don't have to hold the second joystick to see if the game works or not.

As for hooking up 12 buttons to play ikari, that's sounds like a lot work.  If we wanted to work we'd get payed for it

[Tiger-Heli]

First let me say I don't speak for mamedev and have little input in their decisions.  I only work on drivers for 8 bit games and haven't touched inputs in 5 years.  I went through and changed all the shifters to work correctly in my pole cab back then, but I haven't touched a mame cab in years. 

You're wrong about frontline.  I can easily play it by mapping the right controls to be the same as the left   If I want to play it correctly I use a for button 2 and the space bar for shoot.  You don't have to hold the second joystick to see if the game works or not.

As for hooking up 12 buttons to play ikari, that's sounds like a lot work.  If we wanted to work we'd get payed for it

Point taken about Frontline.

You're wrong about IKARI.  If MAME were to use twelve button intputs, I could easily play it by just running forward and not worrying about rotating the sprite.    You don't have to have the sprite rotate to see if the game works or not.

But I see what you mean. . .

[Dav]

First let me say I don't speak for mamedev and have little input in their decisions.  I only work on drivers for 8 bit games and haven't touched inputs in 5 years.  I went through and changed all the shifters to work correctly in my pole cab back then, but I haven't touched a mame cab in years. 

You're wrong about frontline.  I can easily play it by mapping the right controls to be the same as the left   If I want to play it correctly I use a for button 2 and the space bar for shoot.  You don't have to hold the second joystick to see if the game works or not.

As for hooking up 12 buttons to play ikari, that's sounds like a lot work.  If we wanted to work we'd get payed for it

Point taken about Frontline.

You're wrong about IKARI.  If MAME were to use twelve button intputs, I could easily play it by just running forward and not worrying about rotating the sprite.    You don't have to have the sprite rotate to see if the game works or not.

That's how I always play it, I'm not coordinated enough to use the rotate buttons.  I never seem to get very far.   

[bionicbadger]

I don't know what the problem is.  I use druins interface and play ikari and midnight resistance and it works fine.  Sometimes it over rotates a click or misses a click, but big deal, it works fine 98% of the time.

[mahuti]

And the 2% that it doesn't make me avoid playing them because it's maddending. Just like using an 8 way on pacman or donkey kong drives me so nuts that I've spent lots of cash on controls to avoid that problem.

[Ninten-doh]

Bionicbadger, I would get the Druin interface, but it's not available anymore unless I'm totally out of the loop.  Which is quite possible!   

[farmecologist]

Hmm..I'm pretty sure it is still available.  I just ordered one a few weeks ago.

http://connect.to/rotary

[Ninten-doh]

Farm - directly or from SlikStik as an add-on?  The order page on your link says "Orders are currently unavailable due to material and relocation issues."

[farmecologist]

And I agree...after properly tweaking it, mine seems to work 99+ percent of the time.   I do agree though that if you want *absolutely perfect* controls then another method might be warranted.  However, I'm perfectly happy the way I have it set up now.

 

[farmecologist]

Ninten-doh..you are correct.  Bummer, I guess I must have got one of the last ones.  You might want to try e-mailing him directly to see what is going on..

[RandyT]

And I agree...after properly tweaking it, mine seems to work 99+ percent of the time.   I do agree though that if you want *absolutely perfect* controls then another method might be warranted.

Read this for a possible explanation as to why it doesn't work better.

RandyT

[Kremmit]

You're wrong about IKARI.  If MAME were to use twelve button intputs, I could easily play it by just running forward and not worrying about rotating the sprite.    You don't have to have the sprite rotate to see if the game works or not.

That's how I always play it, I'm not coordinated enough to use the rotate buttons.  I never seem to get very far.   

That's why it needs fixing.

[farmecologist]

Randy,

And I agree...after properly tweaking it, mine seems to work 99+ percent of the time.   I do agree though that if you want *absolutely perfect* controls then another method might be warranted.

Read this for a possible explanation as to why it doesn't work better.

RandyT

Yep, I rhave been following that.   I'm just saying that it seems to work 'good enough' for me.   It really doesn't seem to be as bad as people are making it out to be for the games I'm interested in.   Of course, how well it can be tweaked certainly depends on each individual game driver.

When a better solution comes along, then that's great!