ooooh!

[RandyT]

Solution #1: Cheap, effective and won't blink when you press buttons

Use a USB keyboard in parallel with the KeyWiz.
Open up the keyboard, remove the LEDs from the PCB, connect wires to the holes the LED's were in and run them to the LEDs on your CP.  

Not much of  a solution.  More of a work around.  I'm sure it'll work, but you're needlessly subtracting yourself 1 USB port.  

Actually, the keyboard will still be fully functional.  So no lost USB port.  

And unless you purchase a pre-built harness for the "real solution" the work involved isn't alot different.  Another possible benefit is that you might be able to use brighter LEDs.  But that will depend on the keyboard.

I'm also not sure what you mean by the LEDs blinking when you hit a key?  I don't think I noticed this on the iPac.  I could be wrong.  It's happened before, and will happen again

A long thread mentioned as a link earlier in this thread.  Make sure you read it all the way through (or just skip to the end).  But to cut it short, if you aren't using the inputs that share the LEDs, you won't have that issue.

RandyT

[Odonadon]

Having read the entire discussion several times, I'd like to offer my "final thoughts"

The iPac is great.  For a while there, the Ultimarc and Hagstrom encoders were the only way to go.  Now we have an even cheaper solution.  A new device that offers more inputs, while removing a few relatively unimportant gimmicks, at a must cheaper price.

Bottom line - if you REALLY want the LEDs and want it to be easy to hookup, go the iPac and LED harness route.  Granted, at 5v, the bulbs aren't too terribly bright.  But they work just the same.  Or wait for the feature to be added to the keywiz.  This route is going to cost you extra (almost double what a keywiz will).

At the same time, the keywiz offers us a speedier chip to handle all the "button mashing" better.  I haven't had any problems with the iPac in this regard, but hey, you can't go wrong for the price.

I'm sure the keyboard pass-through issue will be dealt with at some point as well. But it's not important for everyone.

What we have are two comparable devices, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses.  Price being one of the keywiz's selling points.  You have to decided for yourself which product you want.  Personally, I will have to give the keywiz a shot for my next cab (if there will be one).  You just can't go wrong for the price.  I mean, come on!  With shipping and duty charges (minus LED harness), I would've saved myself almost $50!  Go keywiz - it'll get the job done.  There's my official endorsement

I appologize on behalf of everyone, Randy, for picking you and the keywiz apart.  It's something that has to be done with a new product with new claims.  

Congratulations, I think you've passed the test.... So far.

Odonadon

[Howard_Casto]

Part #2 of the Saga

But yours is cheaper....  so it will do well.  Why don't you just market it as a "cheaper ipac" instead of adding these marketing buzz words.  
(snip....)
An example of this is your shazaam key... the way you pitch it in your faq it sound like you are saying it's better than the ipac's shift feature.  The fact is, except for the lack of delay (which isn't an issue as secondary keys don't need to be pressed quickly)  it's exactly the same as the shift feature.  

I'm sorry Howard, but you are dead wrong here.  The "Shazaaam!" key is not exactly the same.  Like it or not, use of the shift function on the IPAC always relegates that button to one that cannot be used for a normal control without the possibility of the shift feature kicking in.  By normal, I mean not a "start" or administrative function.  That means if you tried to make a 4 player panel and still wished to use the shift function, subtract that one from the number available for your controls.  This is absolutely NOT the case with the Shazaaam! key.

WTF are you talking about man?  I have my shift key setup as player 1 start and it works fine as both a start button and the shift key. You can also make the shift key any button and it works fine but there is a reason you don't.  Because all your shifted functions would pop up during gameplay, which is a bad thing.  Imagine making player 1, button 1 the shift/shazaam key and pull off some crazy combo on sf only to have the tab menu pop up halfway through it because one of the secondary buttons were activated.  Having the shift key any key other than a dedicated key or a seldom used key (a start button, ect) is pointless.  Again this is another one of those useless features that you keep saying is better.  

Also regarding the other post about the shifted buttons by themselves you can do this as well with the ipac.... you seit the primary button function to "" and the secondary to the function you want it to do, then you can press the "shift" key and the blank key and it works, but it does nothing when you merely press the key.  So again the shazaam key is EXACTLY like the shift key on the ipac.  I think the problem is you aren't very familair with how the ipac works nor it's seldom used features.  

Mind you there's no possible way I could be familair with the keywiz as I dont' have one but 90% of your features that are "better than the ipac" are exactly the same, useless or vaperware in their "improvments" over the ipac.  

As I said before, you are defending features that really don't do anything or are already available on the ipac.  

It's an ipac clone, there's no other way to put it.  Just like any brand of keyboard is the same to the consumer as nobody cares about the repeate rate or the encoder chip driving it.  All they care about is being able to type.  

The same goes with keyboard encoders, nobody cares how fast or how many inputs can be pressed simultaniously after a certain point because as long as it works, it's good enough.  The ipac is a proven product and it works great in both the 2 player and 4 player versions.  Nobody will need more inputs than the ipac 4 so it doesn't matter if yours has more.  The ipac 4 plays fine in 4 player setups so it doesn't matter if yours can handle more keypresses at once.  Are you seeing what I'm getting at here?  These features are nice, but nothing to brag about as they are useless.

Stating a feature is great and expected, but saying that a feature is better than it's competition because of a techinicality is wrong and misleading when the technical advantage has 0 possible applied advantage in any conceviable setup.  

If these truely are advantages then prove it.  Give one single solid example of a use for each that would apply to an arcade setup.  

I don't understand why you even responded. I said that it was a good product and it will do well as has nearly everyone on this thread.  What we have a problem with is your false claims regarding certain points.  Just because the ipac does something differently doesn't make it wrong, nor vice versa.  Except for more inputs, lack of some really nice features that the ipac has and a better price the keywiz is the same as an ipac.  


Oh something a little off topic.... the start buttons on a tmnt cp are redundant.  (Someone mentioned about having them on their tmnt cp)  They wire right back into the player 1 button 1.  Also a 2 player tmnt does have real start buttons as you get to select your character.  I am right on this point as I researched it when I noticed that pressing start in 4-player tmnt does nothing in mame.  

[RandyT]

WTF are you talking about man?  I have my shift key setup as player 1 start and it works fine as both a start button and the shift key. You can also make the shift key any button and it works fine but there is a reason you don't.  Because all your shifted functions would pop up during gameplay, which is a bad thing.  Imagine making player 1, button 1 the shift/shazaam key and pull off some crazy combo on sf only to have the tab menu pop up halfway through it because one of the secondary buttons were activated.  Having the shift key any key other than a dedicated key or a seldom used key (a start button, ect) is pointless.  Again this is another one of those useless features that you keep saying is better.  

Howard, you just aren't getting it, mainly because you keep trying to think about it as being the same as what you are used to.  I'm running out of ways to explain it.  Anyone else care to give it a try?

Also regarding the other post about the shifted buttons by themselves you can do this as well with the ipac.... you seit the primary button function to "" and the secondary to the function you want it to do, then you can press the "shift" key and the blank key and it works, but it does nothing when you merely press the key.  So again the shazaam key is EXACTLY like the shift key on the ipac.  I think the problem is you aren't very familair with how the ipac works nor it's seldom used features.  

You are out in left field again.     Let me give you an example:

Say Joe wants to have 4 start buttons (or whatever) on his CP, but he doesn't have the inputs, because he used them all up with 4 sticks with 4 buttons each.  Sure, he could just put the Shazaaam key in the center of the panel and use the alternates for any of the buttons he has.  But Joe doesn't want to do it that way. Joe wants 4 MORE BUTTONS and he wants them to trigger the alternate keys for the buttons he already has without pressing two buttons at the same time.

With the KeyWiz and 4 special buttons, Joe can get his wish.

Now someone (not named Joe) asked about doing this with the IPAC recently in the forums.  And was told that it would not work.  But if you say it can, then you should let Andy know, because he is the one that answered the question

So, how is this "useless feature" "the same" again?

Mind you there's no possible way I could be familair with the keywiz as I dont' have one but 90% of your features that are "better than the ipac" are exactly the same, useless or vaperware in their "improvments" over the ipac.  

As I said before, you are defending features that really don't do anything or are already available on the ipac.  

As you said in the paragraph above, "you don't have one".  You should really stop criticizing things you do not understand.  And it's not like no-one has tried to explain it to you.

It's an ipac clone, there's no other way to put it.  Just like any brand of keyboard is the same to the consumer as nobody cares about the repeate rate or the encoder chip driving it.  All they care about is being able to type.  

Tell that to the people that have been hacking keyboards for the last few years.  Just because it has keys and puts out data via the PS/2 port does not mean they are all the same.  It's not the chip, it's code inside of it.

Stating a feature is great and expected, but saying that a feature is better than it's competition because of a techinicality is wrong and misleading when the technical advantage has 0 possible applied advantage in any conceviable setup.

I just showed you one....and there are more.

You do realize that an IPAC-4 has twice the buffer and twice the speed don't you?  Would you consider that unnecessary or of no technical advantage on a unit capable of a 4 player CP?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to start comparing the KeyWiz to an IPAC-4 , but the KeyWiz can almost get you there at half the cost.  No value in that?

If these truely are advantages then prove it.  Give one single solid example of a use for each that would apply to an arcade setup.  

I just did

I don't understand why you even responded. I said that it was a good product and it will do well as has nearly everyone on this thread.  What we have a problem with is your false claims regarding certain points.  Just because the ipac does something differently doesn't make it wrong, nor vice versa.  Except for more inputs, lack of some really nice features that the ipac has and a better price the keywiz is the same as an ipac.

You answered your own question .  The claims I made are not false, and the two products are not the same.   Others see this, why don't you?

Tell me, would you sit idle if someone, who never saw or used your front end, started telling the world that your front end, while "ok", was the same as every other front end out there, and your efforts to provide certain unique features didn't matter because all front ends are just "Windows Explorer" in disquise?

I'd like to think that you would answer that question truthfully to yourself, but at this point I'm not so sure.

RandyT

[rampy]

oooooh I forgot *I* started the thread... so therefore I can lock it.... =P

I think we need a dedicated thread just for randyt, HC, 8b, and brax =)    I just wanted to point out that there was an update on the groovygamegear/keywiz site and that they were taking orders...

Randy, how about a new official announcment that details (again) the features and benefits of key wiz in a new thread (and on the byoac main page...)  Then we can all pick that apart and discuss the issue ad nauseum...

(I actually have a question or two, but it won't stand the heat of this thread =P)

rampy