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Author Topic: ooooh!  (Read 15226 times)

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rampy

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ooooh!
« on: February 11, 2003, 11:43:52 am »
http://www.groovygamegear.com/

where's my CC =)

rampy

schwefeljm

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2003, 11:58:30 am »
Only if it had more imputs :(

Will not work for a 4 player CP, well, not very well.

Brax

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2003, 12:12:47 pm »
Is it just me, or does that joystick logo look rather phallic?
At least he doesn't look happy about touching it!  ;)
If you build a frankenpanel, chances are I don't care for you as a person.

romid

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2003, 12:17:21 pm »
This seems like a really good deal...though I just recently bought a I-Pac

Jeehemdee

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2003, 12:45:49 pm »
Something is not clear to me:

on the I-Pac you have a keyboard "In" plug, ant "Out" so that you can still use your keybaord.

Can you do this with the KeyWiz..or do you lose your access to your keyboard ?
(I can only see one plug (at least on KeyWizEco and KeyWiz..))

Thanks !

Odonadon

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2003, 01:12:46 pm »
Something is not clear to me:

on the I-Pac you have a keyboard "In" plug, ant "Out" so that you can still use your keybaord.

Can you do this with the KeyWiz..or do you lose your access to your keyboard ?
(I can only see one plug (at least on KeyWizEco and KeyWiz..))

Thanks !

You can hook your keyboard up to the KeyWiz  Max - effectively the same as an I-pac.

Odonadon
It's Captain Odonadon, and his magical bag of nuts.

KevSteele

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2003, 01:17:40 pm »
Something is not clear to me:

on the I-Pac you have a keyboard "In" plug, ant "Out" so that you can still use your keybaord.

Can you do this with the KeyWiz..or do you lose your access to your keyboard ?
(I can only see one plug (at least on KeyWizEco and KeyWiz..))

Thanks !

It looks like the "Max" version of the KeyWiz has a pass-through connector.

Shame it doesn't have USB capabilities, but I do like that it has more inputs (32) than the standard IPAC/2 (26).
Kevin Steele, Former Editor and Publisher of RetroBlast! and GameRoom Magazine

rampy

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2003, 01:20:23 pm »
Something is not clear to me:

on the I-Pac you have a keyboard "In" plug, ant "Out" so that you can still use your keybaord.

Can you do this with the KeyWiz..or do you lose your access to your keyboard ?
(I can only see one plug (at least on KeyWizEco and KeyWiz..))

Thanks !

You can hook your keyboard up to the KeyWiz  Max - effectively the same as an I-pac.

Odonadon

I'm not RandyT (but i play one on tv)....

I believe this was done intentionally as having a keyboard connected all the time through the encoder takes away from the power and efficiency of the encoder (one of it's selling features -> you can mash and mash and the key wiz won't block or drop keypresses)... that's why there is a switch to enable the external keyboard port on the key wiz max.  You only want/get keyboard access when it's been switched "on".

With that said, you could always run your keyboard in parallel with the key wiz... that's what I plan on doing for my RF USB keyboard.

rampy

PS that's my understanding anyways, articulated in a very generalized way... I may be wrong... I may be crazy... but you can't stop me from posting muhahahaha (well Sirp, NIVO, PJ, Saint, et al can... but YOU can't...) =P

Silverwind

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2003, 01:43:17 pm »
Something is not clear to me:

on the I-Pac you have a keyboard "In" plug, ant "Out" so that you can still use your keybaord.

Can you do this with the KeyWiz..or do you lose your access to your keyboard ?
(I can only see one plug (at least on KeyWizEco and KeyWiz..))

Thanks !

You can hook your keyboard up to the KeyWiz  Max - effectively the same as an I-pac.

Odonadon

I'm not RandyT (but i play one on tv)....

I believe this was done intentionally as having a keyboard connected all the time through the encoder takes away from the power and efficiency of the encoder (one of it's selling features -> you can mash and mash and the key wiz won't block or drop keypresses)... that's why there is a switch to enable the external keyboard port on the key wiz max.  You only want/get keyboard access when it's been switched "on".

With that said, you could always run your keyboard in parallel with the key wiz... that's what I plan on doing for my RF USB keyboard.

rampy

PS that's my understanding anyways, articulated in a very generalized way... I may be wrong... I may be crazy... but you can't stop me from posting muhahahaha (well Sirp, NIVO, PJ, Saint, et al can... but YOU can't...) =P

When i tested my I-pac4 out just a week ago ..  i hooked it up via USB to my PC.. and had my PS/2 keyboard plugged into the PC as well.. they both played very nicely with each other :)

I'll eventually buy a wireless kb/mouse which will also utilize a USB port.. so I don't think I will ever have to use the pass-through.. but it's nice it's there in case for some reason I would like to do it that way..

DeathMonk

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2003, 01:50:35 pm »
I have a keyboard and 2 p360's hooked up to I-PAC--never lost any keypresses


Now with cup beer holders!

Chris

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2003, 01:56:11 pm »
I'm adding a USB port to my cabinet accessible underneath the control panel overhang; this way I can plug in a USB keyboard or a USB game controller from outside the cabinet when I need it...

--Chris
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SirPoonga

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2003, 02:17:31 pm »
Something is not clear to me:

on the I-Pac you have a keyboard "In" plug, ant "Out" so that you can still use your keybaord.

Can you do this with the KeyWiz..or do you lose your access to your keyboard ?
(I can only see one plug (at least on KeyWizEco and KeyWiz..))

Thanks !

People just don't read!!!!!!  Read the FAQ!!!!  *sigh* lazy bums :)

rampy

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2003, 02:22:17 pm »
yeah... true dat.. it's explained much better

here

Silverwind

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2003, 02:22:57 pm »
Something is not clear to me:

on the I-Pac you have a keyboard "In" plug, ant "Out" so that you can still use your keybaord.

Can you do this with the KeyWiz..or do you lose your access to your keyboard ?
(I can only see one plug (at least on KeyWizEco and KeyWiz..))

Thanks !

People just don't read!!!!!!  Read the FAQ!!!!  *sigh* lazy bums :)

i guess it's a nicer version of RTFM :D

but at least now we know.. and knowing is half the battle!

SirPoonga

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2003, 02:29:59 pm »
i guess it's a nicer version of RTFM :D

but at least now we know.. and knowing is half the battle!

It's sound weird to say RTFF!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2003, 02:30:16 pm by SirPoonga »

Zinfari

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2003, 02:56:24 pm »
Anyone know if there is any way to daisy chain or other way to use 2 at the same time.  That would allow them to be used for 4 player installs.

-Zinfari

SirPoonga

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2003, 03:00:52 pm »
Anyone know if there is any way to daisy chain or other way to use 2 at the same time.  That would allow them to be used for 4 player installs.

-Zinfari

not going to happen.  It;s a keyboard.  keyboards aren;t parallel devices.  I'm sure there is some electrical engineering genius way to do it but it won;t be cheap then.

Brax

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2003, 03:08:16 pm »
Quote
I believe this was done intentionally as having a keyboard connected all the time through the encoder takes away from the power and efficiency of the encoder (one of it's selling features -> you can mash and mash and the key wiz won't block or drop keypresses)... that's why there is a switch to enable the external keyboard port on the key wiz max.  You only want/get keyboard access when it's been switched "on".

So he says, but have you EVER had your IPAC drop keystrokes? Nope, me either.
Gimme my keyboard pass through on the cheap keywiz!!  ;)
If you build a frankenpanel, chances are I don't care for you as a person.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2003, 03:46:52 pm »
Quote
I believe this was done intentionally as having a keyboard connected all the time through the encoder takes away from the power and efficiency of the encoder (one of it's selling features -> you can mash and mash and the key wiz won't block or drop keypresses)... that's why there is a switch to enable the external keyboard port on the key wiz max.  You only want/get keyboard access when it's been switched "on".

So he says, but have you EVER had your IPAC drop keystrokes? Nope, me either.
Gimme my keyboard pass through on the cheap keywiz!!  ;)

FWIW I don't own an IPAC, (not that I wouldn't own one, they seem great... may get a jpac at some juncture and/or VGAcard)... and no where did I say that IPAC's drop keystrokes...

Just a clarification, lest anyone think i'm a key wiz fanboy or an ipac basher...

but that doesn't mean we can't have the discussion as to the merits (or demerits) of the keywiz/ipac... *shrug* I think it's kinda like driving a sports car to work every day (to borrow an analogy) you don't need 300-500 hp but you like knowing it's there =P

Rampy
« Last Edit: February 11, 2003, 04:45:01 pm by rampy »

eightbit

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2003, 04:29:20 pm »
This is an exciting time for this hobby, there seem to really be some new innovations and choices being given to us.

I have done a couple cabinets with Ipacs, one with a sidewinder, one jukebox with a touch screen and I was a beta tester for the keywiz. What I have to say is not necessarily endorsed by RandyT nor was it reviewed by him in advance and he had no input in it.

WARNING OPINION ALERT- Read the following at your own risk to your physical and mental well being.

I am not bashing the ipac, I love my ipacs. The keywhiz is a less costly alternative with a few different features. The keywiz is a great product for what it was designed to do. Most of what it does it does is comparable to an  ipac. After all it is just a keyboard encoder(with a "shazzam" button!). But it was a keyboard encoder designed with the maximum number of inputs, ease of customizable/easy to switch programming and the fastest processing possible with a strict requirement of being inexpensive. I think Randy has succeeded very well at doing that.

In all fairness theres 2 features it can't do that the ipac can. It doesn't support keyboard LED's or a dedicated keyboard passthrough. Both were eliminated for performance reasons and maximizing the number of inputs. For just a few dollars you can buy a ps/2 to USB keyboard adapter or get a USB keyboard. This will give you the dedicated keyboard if you want it. If you want keyboard LED's today then you'll have to get an ipac but check into the limitations of going this route before you do. The ipac shares the LED lines with button inputs so they will flash whenever those shared buttons are pressed. There also may be performance issues because of the shared inputs. The keywiz has a 5v source of power on it so if you want to run some p360's or light up some buttons with LED's you can still do that.

The keywiz eco is priced very close to or less than what a gamepad hack is going to cost you. Its tough to justify hacking some game pads when for just a little more you can get one of these with all the flexibility and compatability that a keyboard encoder offers. I won't be buying the eco because there is no way you can convince me that its worth saving $7 to do the soldering plus the flexbility of changing wiring later. I beta tested the max but the next one I order will likely be the standard model, with a USB keyboard.

From the posts in this thread it sounds like at least Rampy might order one and some of you others are interested. I'm sure there will be posts from others soon with hands on experience that will be less biased than mine since it was exciting for me to be involved in the beta testing. I'm sure everyone will be interested to hear what those opinions will be.
My statements are my own opinions. They have the value that the reader gives them. My opinion of my opinion varies between foolish and brilliant and these opinions often change with new information.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2003, 04:40:00 pm »
The most important thing here is that more options is better for everyone.  Well done, RandyT!
--Chris
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DeathMonk

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2003, 04:56:29 pm »
The most important thing here is that more options is better for everyone.  Well done, RandyT!

True dat.


Now with cup beer holders!

SirPoonga

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2003, 04:59:47 pm »
If you want keyboard LED's today then you'll have to get an ipac but check into the limitations of going this route before you do. The ipac shares the LED lines with button inputs so they will flash whenever those shared buttons are pressed. There also may be performance issues because of the shared inputs. The keywiz has a 5v source of power on it so if you want to run some p360's or light up some buttons with LED's you can still do that.

Not arguing, just providing facts.  You said to research.
You own ipacs, you have issues with the buttons the leds share?  I don;t/  They happen to be the buttons hardly used too, hmm, I think there is a reason then they were put on those buttons.
second, yeah, anyone can lightup buttons without an ipac, but to light them up as coins are being inputed according to how the game did it is only possible through the keyboard leds.  UNLESS you make some custom parallel port or usb adaptor and rewrite the set_led_status function in mame.

The keywiz is cool in the fact that it is cheaper and does most everything the ipac does.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2003, 05:09:23 pm by SirPoonga »

eightbit

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2003, 07:07:37 pm »
Not arguing, just providing facts.  You said to research.
You own ipacs, you have issues with the buttons the leds share?  I don;t/  They happen to be the buttons hardly used too, hmm, I think there is a reason then they were put on those buttons.
second, yeah, anyone can lightup buttons without an ipac, but to light them up as coins are being inputed according to how the game did it is only possible through the keyboard leds.  UNLESS you make some custom parallel port or usb adaptor and rewrite the set_led_status function in mame.

The keywiz is cool in the fact that it is cheaper and does most everything the ipac does.
I did try to present a fair review and point out both its good points and its limitations. I also admitted my bias because of my involvement not that I can take any credit.

Its not that I have issues with the shared inputs since I've never used the LED capability. I don't like the idea that the LED's are shared but right now thats the best choice that you really have.

The keywiz is cool and while its true that there are things the ipac can do there are also things the keywiz can do that the ipac can't like switching between a custom program and the default program on the fly. Another thing a lot of people miss is that it has a dedicated shazzam (shift) key. No more worrying about both players hitting the start buttons at the same time and exiting the game.
My statements are my own opinions. They have the value that the reader gives them. My opinion of my opinion varies between foolish and brilliant and these opinions often change with new information.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2003, 07:20:59 pm »
The keywiz is cool and while its true that there are things the ipac can do there are also things the keywiz can do that the ipac can't like switching between a custom program and the default program on the fly.
Again, not arguing, just pointing out my opinions.  The IPAC can do this with bat files.  Different implementation, but is possible.  That's why alot of people happy to see ipac fixed their XP problems.  Especially HowardC.
With batch files you can switch to an unlimited amount of mappings.

Quote
Another thing a lot of people miss is that it has a dedicated shazzam (shift) key. No more worrying about both players hitting the start buttons at the same time and exiting the game.
That's cool, BUT here's the other side of the story.  It's an extra button.  And since both cards can redefine controls it really isn't an issue.  I actually like the shared input, one less button in the design.  My pause button is my shift buttons.  Doesn't cause issues.   The escape thing on the ipac is just bad thinking ahead, they really should remap that to a different default.


Just giving my opinions so people can make an educated decision to the interface they want.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2003, 07:23:59 pm by SirPoonga »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2003, 12:24:59 am »
Again, not arguing, just pointing out my opinions.  The IPAC can do this with bat files.  Different implementation, but is possible.  That's why alot of people happy to see ipac fixed their XP problems.  Especially HowardC.
With batch files you can switch to an unlimited amount of mappings.

This method can also be used with KeyWiz, but the number of profiles available is 15.  It's doubtful that anyone would have that many different configurations for their CP, but they are there anyway.  

The difference between the two methods is that with KeyWiz, you can have the custom set load automatically at boot time, and be able to switch  between the default set and custom set instantly and at will, without ever having to touch the programming software again if you don't want to.

The software for KeyWiz is an initial release, but already offers more functionality than most.  There are more capabilities that can be added, but we will wait for user feedback on this one before we decide what else it should do.

Quote
That's cool, BUT here's the other side of the story.  It's an extra button.  And since both cards can redefine controls it really isn't an issue.  I actually like the shared input, one less button in the design.  My pause button is my shift buttons.  Doesn't cause issues.   The escape thing on the ipac is just bad thinking ahead, they really should remap that to a different default.

Just giving my opinions so people can make an educated decision to the interface they want.


Very shortly, we will be offering "Shazaaam!" buttons that will address this.  They will cost a little more than a standard button, due to some extra hardware, but will make a dedicated button for Shazaaam! functions unnecessary.  Using these new buttons will open up more possibilities for controls as all 32 inputs can be used for controls, and still have up to 24 other buttons for administrative functions (if you really wanted that many :).)

Also, as Shazaaam! functions are initiated on "key-down" with repeat enabled, combination button presses still work if that functionality is desired.  

It all boils down to the fact that the KeyWiz and IPAC are two different products, with different capabilities and design philosophies.  Hopefully the availability of the KeyWiz will offer people more options to do things the way they want where those options may not have existed before.


And thanks for fielding the KB question, rampy :).  You are right in that the integrated pass-through was outside of the design philosophy for KeyWiz.  USB keyboards work great along side of it.


I also want to thank eightbit and saint for field testing the first units, testing the software and offering their feedback.  Their assistance was invaluable in getting this completed.

RandyT

SirPoonga

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2003, 12:40:10 am »
Again, not arguing, just pointing out my opinions.  The IPAC can do this with bat files.  Different implementation, but is possible.  That's why alot of people happy to see ipac fixed their XP problems.  Especially HowardC.
With batch files you can switch to an unlimited amount of mappings.

This method can also be used with KeyWiz, but the number of profiles available is 15.  It's doubtful that anyone would have that many different configurations for their CP, but they are there anyway.  

The difference between the two methods is that with KeyWiz, you can have the custom set load automatically at boot time, and be able to switch  between the default set and custom set instantly and at will, without ever having to touch the programming software again if you don't want to.

The software for KeyWiz is an initial release, but already offers more functionality than most.  There are more capabilities that can be added, but we will wait for user feedback on this one before we decide what else it should do.

Right, I'm just making the distinction that with the ipacutil you can have more than just a default and 1 custom.  You can have multiple mappings.  Great if you run alot of different software.

x-wing

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2003, 12:51:51 am »
The software for KeyWiz is an initial release, but already offers more functionality than most.  There are more capabilities that can be added, but we will wait for user feedback on this one before we decide what else it should do.


Will a linux version of the software be available, or are we going to be ignored again??   :(

I hope not because my next cabinet could definitely use a keywhiz!


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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2003, 01:29:35 am »

Right, I'm just making the distinction that with the ipacutil you can have more than just a default and 1 custom.  You can have multiple mappings.  Great if you run alot of different software.

Sorry if I wasn't clear before  :).  The KeyWiz software can be run from the command line, just like the IPACutil and can do the same thing.

The only distinction between the two currently, is that the KeyWiz Uploader software uses 15 profiles that can be called by their letter designation (simple to remember) from the command line and IPACUtil can directly call a path/filename and have an unlimited number.  If we hear from our users that 15 isn't enough, command line execution of path/filename is just a minor mod and will be the next addition to the software ;).

It was done this way with the mindset that for 98% of the people, 15 different configurations would be ample while still maintaining simplicity.

Also, the KeyWiz has both the default and custom set accessible at all times from the CP without re-programming.  To be able to program the IPAC, you need to move a jumper, at which time only the custom set is available.  If you decide you want to use the defaults after you move the jumper , you would either have to move the jumper back or program it, which isn't the case with KeyWiz.

I hope this explained it better :).
RandyT





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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2003, 06:02:29 am »
Only if it had more imputs :(

Will not work for a 4 player CP, well, not very well.
Neither does an I-PAC/2, which is in the same price range.  The I-PAC/4 is more than double the price of the KeyWiz, so that's not really a fair comparision.

Actually, it can work very well for a four-player CP.  I did a lot of research on this recently.  Consider the following: the only four-player six-button game is Super Street Fighter 2: tournament edition (according to KLOV, and possibly not emulated).  According to KLOV, there are exactly three 4-player 4-button games (2 Dungeons and Dragons, and NBA JAM Extreme (not emulated)).  These games would require 8 inputs per player or 32 total, so you lose your player start buttons, but the Shazaam key does not take away an input, so it is possible to set Shazaam plus Player 1 button 1 up as Start 1, Shazaam plus Player 2 Button 2 as Start 2, and so on, for other players.

If you are not concerned about these games, 4-player 3-button games require 28 inputs, which leaves you with 4 inputs left over.  It is playable (but not authentic) to map your coin and start inputs (in MAME) to the same button, so every time you press Start 1 you also add a credit for player 1, but you probably would want to anyway.  Using this method, you would take all inputs except Player 1 and 2 Start, joystick and buttons 1 through 3, and map them to the Player 3 and 4 buttons.  Then set MAME up to use these keys for these games.

It's really a lot simpler than it sounds.

The tricky part is getting a 4-player 4-button setup that also works well for 4-player 3-button games, but since the I-PAC/2 won't support 4-player 4-button games at all and won't support 4-player 3-button games easily (no coin or start buttons) the KeyWiz is much more workable for this situation.

Nothing against the I-PAC/2, it was never designed as a 4-player controller!
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2003, 11:42:26 am »
Only if it had more imputs :(

Will not work for a 4 player CP, well, not very well.
Neither does an I-PAC/2, which is in the same price range.  The I-PAC/4 is more than double the price of the KeyWiz, so that's not really a fair comparision.

Actually, it can work very well for a four-player CP.  I did a lot of research on this recently.  Consider the following: the only four-player six-button game is Super Street Fighter 2: tournament edition

It's emulated but klov got it wrong... it's 4 player in alternating 2 players at a time (in other words 2 player, 6-button)  Also ssf2te is the last and honestly lamest, sad attempt to streatch a few more buck out of street fighter 2.  Nobody really likes this game any more than super street fighter 2 or the dozen other versions of the game.  

On the keywiz... I understand that randy wants to have the maximum number of inputs, but as you were leading towards it really isn't necessary.  His excuse for leaving out the leds and the pass-through is mainly a speed/limiting the number of inputs issue.  

That sounds good,  but has nearly everyone on this thread has said, there aren't any issues with the speed on the ipac, nor the number of inputs, nor the shift key feature (except for it's odd mapping of escape of course).  Also there isn't an issue with remapping, as the latest generations of the ipac allow for on the fly key remapping without any software as well, it just works differently.  

So without picking sides on either one here is what we have........  

Two similar encoders, with one (keywiz) lacking several nice features in lue of more useless, different features (no delay on the shift key and more inputs).  But the keywhiz is cheaper.  

So if you are really budget conscious and/or want a cheap 4 player layout then get a keywiz, otherwize get an ipac.  

From where I sit the better performance of the keywiz is great, but totally unneeded as the ipac already does a perfect job performance wise.  

I wish randy the best of luck, and I honestly think it will do well because of the lower cost, but the selling points he is giving really aren't selling points imho.  Even if they were the pass-through option and usb support is really a key selling point ot the ipac and the lack of those features is more of a downside then any new advantages.  

Anyway, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, I just think the consumer should understand the benefit (or lack there of) these new features will actually have in practical setups. Again, both are great products and I don't think you would really be "jipped" by buying one over the other anyway. :)      

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2003, 12:15:43 pm »
It's emulated but klov got it wrong... it's 4 player in alternating 2 players at a time (in other words 2 player, 6-button)  Also ssf2te is the last and honestly lamest, sad attempt to streatch a few more buck out of street fighter 2.  Nobody really likes this game any more than super street fighter 2 or the dozen other versions of the game.  
Thanks, Howard, that's solves a lot of the puzzle on ssf2te.  Not surprised KLOV got it wrong.

Good summary on the KeyWiz vs. I-PAC.  I agree with almost all your points.  (Now there's a scary statement . . .  j/k)
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2003, 01:08:52 pm »

On the keywiz... I understand that randy wants to have the maximum number of inputs, but as you were leading towards it really isn't necessary.  His excuse for leaving out the leds and the pass-through is mainly a speed/limiting the number of inputs issue.  

That sounds good,  but has nearly everyone on this thread has said, there aren't any issues with the speed on the ipac, nor the number of inputs, nor the shift key feature (except for it's odd mapping of escape of course).  Also there isn't an issue with remapping, as the latest generations of the ipac allow for on the fly key remapping without any software as well, it just works differently.  

So without picking sides on either one here is what we have........  

Two similar encoders, with one (keywiz) lacking several nice features in lue of more useless, different features (no delay on the shift key and more inputs).  But the keywhiz is cheaper.  

So if you are really budget conscious and/or want a cheap 4 player layout then get a keywiz, otherwize get an ipac.  

From where I sit the better performance of the keywiz is great, but totally unneeded as the ipac already does a perfect job performance wise.  

I wish randy the best of luck, and I honestly think it will do well because of the lower cost, but the selling points he is giving really aren't selling points imho.  Even if they were the pass-through option and usb support is really a key selling point ot the ipac and the lack of those features is more of a downside then any new advantages.  

Anyway, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, I just think the consumer should understand the benefit (or lack there of) these new features will actually have in practical setups. Again, both are great products and I don't think you would really be "jipped" by buying one over the other anyway. :)      


Howard, your points are taken, but I have to respond to this. :)

I think that by failing to mention some of the other features in your comparison, you are selling the KeyWiz short.  

You mention that no-one has ever had any problems with performance with an IPAC, but it isn't used much in a 4 player configuration either.  The larger buffer and extra inputs does make this a possibility with the KeyWiz, and because of the way it is designed, it should work quite well for that application.  In other words, it's up for the task.

You also don't mention key-repeat.  From what I understand, the IPAC does not do key repeat in PS/2 mode.  The first time you try to scroll through a large list, you'll see the value of this.

You also gloss over the software support.  As I haven't really given a complete feature list, I'll take the blame on that one.  The KeyWiz software is more comprehensive than any other out there for this type of device.  You can set up and name a profile that will allow you to edit/upload the new character definitions and automatically launch the application associated with it.  Automated programming and launching of applications can even be done from a shortcut or the command line.  Did I mention that, with the exception of the command line stuff, you can do all of this without the need to drag your keyboard out? :)

And I am curious about on the fly codeset switching on the IPAC.  Could you elaborate a little?


I'd also like to say that the things that are not valuable to you, might be of great importance to someone else.  And likewise, the things I see as valuable, others may see differently.  For instance, I don't care about a keyboard pass-through, as I have a USB keyboard.  I also don't care about USB compatibility, as again, I have a USB keyboard.  And my personal opinion is that I don't want USB keyboard technology for my controls because I don't feel that it's up to task, but I'm sure it's fine for others, especially people with MACs who have no other options.  As for LEDs, I don't use them (as most don't), but if I did, I would want to be able to select the type I wanted to use and not be limited to the low current/output variety.  But again, that's just my opinion.

So you see, all of those "valuable" features you mentioned have no value at all to *me* :)

While I don't feel that you aren't taking sides, I do appreciate the comment about not getting "jipped" either way  :D

I won't tell anyone that the KeyWiz is the solution to every situation (just ask Tiger-Heli).  They have to do what is right for them by weighing all the factors.  Being able to sleep at night is more important than taking someone's money for something that may not serve their needs. Otherwise I could have played "status quo" and charged the going rate for these devices, but that's not what was important to me.

I really was hoping this wouldn't turn into a KeyWiz vs IPAC war.  They are two different products each with merits/downsides of their own, depending on the perception/needs of the individual looking at them.  But based on discussions I have had and the orders I have recieved so far, I'd say that your perception isn't shared by everyone. ;)

RandyT

« Last Edit: February 12, 2003, 02:31:44 pm by RandyT »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2003, 02:32:58 pm »
Only if it had more imputs :(

Will not work for a 4 player CP, well, not very well.
I've been thinking about this and if you wanted to you could easily get 3 more inputs. Simply hack a mouse and you'll have 35 inputs with a keywiz. I've been playing with the idea of a 4 player panel with 35 inputs.
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2003, 03:33:22 pm »
Only if it had more imputs :(

Will not work for a 4 player CP, well, not very well.
I've been thinking about this and if you wanted to you could easily get 3 more inputs. Simply hack a mouse and you'll have 35 inputs with a keywiz. I've been playing with the idea of a 4 player panel with 35 inputs.



Only 35 inputs?  (35-16-8)/4 = 2.75 buttons per player
16 being inputs for 4 joystick, 8 being coin and start.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2003, 03:50:46 pm »
Only if it had more imputs :(

Will not work for a 4 player CP, well, not very well.
I've been thinking about this and if you wanted to you could easily get 3 more inputs. Simply hack a mouse and you'll have 35 inputs with a keywiz. I've been playing with the idea of a 4 player panel with 35 inputs.
Only 35 inputs?  (35-16-8)/4 = 2.75 buttons per player
16 being inputs for 4 joystick, 8 being coin and start.
Forget coin inputs, for your four-player game, map MAME so Coin1 and Start1 are both "1", same for other players.  Now 4-buttons are out, but

4 joy - 16
4 button - 12
4 Start buttons - 4
plus 3 leftover inputs for say Pause, Escape, and Tab.
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2003, 04:46:46 pm »
Only 35 inputs?  (35-16-8)/4 = 2.75 buttons per player
16 being inputs for 4 joystick, 8 being coin and start.
I think what I came up with is that 40 inputs would be ideal if I shifted p1/2 to get p3/4 and the same thing with the coins. That would be 6 buttons for p1/2 and 4 buttons for p3/4.

If I dropped to 2 buttons for p3/4 and I mapped credit to start then it could be done with 1 input left.

Its just a reoccurring plan/thought  that I've been having.
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2003, 05:08:33 pm »
You also don't mention key-repeat.  From what I understand, the IPAC does not do key repeat in PS/2 mode.  The first time you try to scroll through a large list, you'll see the value of this.

Most fe's will check for a keydown so this is no problem in most cases...

peter

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2003, 05:28:56 pm »
You also don't mention key-repeat.  From what I understand, the IPAC does not do key repeat in PS/2 mode.  The first time you try to scroll through a large list, you'll see the value of this.

Most fe's will check for a keydown so this is no problem in most cases...

peter

and many fe's have a page down feature.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2003, 05:42:01 pm »
I have a question for Randy... Could you use 2 keywiz if one of them is connected via ps2>USB converter?  I guess if the programming software communicates with the device through the ps/2 then that might confuse the software... but couldn't the one connected to the USB converter still use the default key profile and just have the one on the ps/2 be programmable?

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2003, 07:29:35 pm »
First off, let me start by saying that I own an i-Pac.

With that out of the way, I'd like to point out (after receiving my latest customs charges on my iPac order) that because the keywhiz is lower in price and is located in here North America, the price would come out cheaper in the long run (for us North Americns), because of cheaper shipping rates, and no need to gamble with receiving custom and duty charges.

But the iPac is indeed a quality producet, don't get me wrong.  I especially like the keyboard LED feature.  Very cool for the older games, but also more expensive :)

Just my 2
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2003, 07:39:18 pm »
That's actually why RandyT made it:)  It's cheaper in the US:)

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2003, 08:29:54 pm »
I'd also like to say that the things that are not valuable to you, might be of great importance to someone else.  And likewise, the things I see as valuable, others may see differently.   As for LEDs, I don't use them (as most don't), but if I did, I would want to be able to select the type I wanted to use and not be limited to the low current/output variety.  But again, that's just my opinion.

So you see, all of those "valuable" features you mentioned have no value at all to *me* :)

Are you making it for you or for US?

Ask around here.... you'll see many people love the LED support and many USE it or plan to. It's actually quite popular right now, many of the best cabinets use this feature. You'll see many player buttons modified to glow internally. Its one of the "in" things right now.

I'd give your market research company hell for that oversight. You DID do market research right?

As for "dragging" out a keyboard. Oh yes, my RF mini keyboard is a real pain to pull out. (another favorite of people around here)

As for the IPAC on the fly key remapping.... You really know nothing about it? You didn't research the single most popular (and LOVED) keyboard encoder out there? You just figured you'd make something better huh? Almost sounds arrogant to me.


Anyways..... I truly wish you luck but many of your assumptions are off the mark. Replacing a great product is risky at best.... even if yours is great as well. I'm already loyal to IPAC as many are. Your "improved" features and speed enhancements just don't serve any benefit to me. I think you said it best: You'll see the benefits of your encoder in 4 player mode.... and in the same breath you say not many people use 4 player mode.... So who IS your market?

It just seems a VERY confusing marketing strategy. But that doesn't really bother me, that's your problem, I just want a good product. I've found that in the IPAC and honestly I'm not looking for a replacement. He came through for us when no one else was and I'm loyal to his products for that. AND its MORE than functional enough. So you made one that's functionalererer, huh? But I didn't have a problem with the last one.

*shrug*  Good luck.
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2003, 09:55:11 pm »
I'd also like to say that the things that are not valuable to you, might be of great importance to someone else.  And likewise, the things I see as valuable, others may see differently.   As for LEDs, I don't use them (as most don't), but if I did, I would want to be able to select the type I wanted to use and not be limited to the low current/output variety.  But again, that's just my opinion.

So you see, all of those "valuable" features you mentioned have no value at all to *me* :)

Are you making it for you or for US?

You completely missed the point.  It was an illustration that reflected my own opinions on what I find of value to show how they might differ from someone elses.  Namely HC.  It is not a basis for my decisions as to the product design.

Quote
Ask around here.... you'll see many people love the LED support and many USE it or plan to. It's actually quite popular right now, many of the best cabinets use this feature. You'll see many player buttons modified to glow internally. Its one of the "in" things right now.

I'd give your market research company hell for that oversight. You DID do market research right?

We did.  Look for the poll that was conducted on this site.  Hundreds viewed the poll, and only about a dozen felt it was important enough to even vote on.  Out of the dozen, only 2 said they found it to be important.  A few said "maybe" and more than that said it wasn't important to them at all.  And if you plan on using low current LEDs for your modified buttons, plan on playing with the lights out.  It'll probably be only way you'll see them.

Quote
As for "dragging" out a keyboard. Oh yes, my RF mini keyboard is a real pain to pull out. (another favorite of people around here)

If it works for you that's fine.  Maybe we should set up another poll to see the percentage of people that have RF mini keyboards as opposed to regular ones.

Quote
As for the IPAC on the fly key remapping.... You really know nothing about it? You didn't research the single most popular (and LOVED) keyboard encoder out there? You just figured you'd make something better huh? Almost sounds arrogant to me.

Lets just say I know more about that product than you most likely do.  If that's what you call arrogance, so be it.  The only "on the fly remapping" that I'm aware of on the IPAC is very different from what was described on my product, yet the two were compared as though they were the same through a vague inference.  This is misleading and was masked as an attempt to be helpful to people that didn't know any better.  This is not fair to those people and does nothing to help understand the distinctions between the two products.  I asked for a public clarification as to how they were the same and so far haven't got one.  Perhaps you can do this.

Quote
Anyways..... I truly wish you luck but many of your assumptions are off the mark. Replacing a great product is risky at best.... even if yours is great as well. I'm already loyal to IPAC as many are. Your "improved" features and speed enhancements just don't serve any benefit to me. I think you said it best: You'll see the benefits of your encoder in 4 player mode.... and in the same breath you say not many people use 4 player mode.... So who IS your market?

I have already sent two potential customers to solutions other than mine.  If I wanted to make an IPAC clone, that's exactly what I would have done.  Everything can be improved upon.  Just because you don't like microwaved food, doesn't mean that everyone should have to boil their hotdogs :).

And if you take a break from all the emotion and read what was written, you would see that the 4 player comments were referring to the inability to judge the performance of a standard IPAC in 4 player mode as it isn't used much in that manner due to lack of inputs.  The enhanced performance and large buffer of the KeyWiz will certainly make a difference if used like this.

Quote
It just seems a VERY confusing marketing strategy. But that doesn't really bother me, that's your problem, I just want a good product. I've found that in the IPAC and honestly I'm not looking for a replacement. He came through for us when no one else was and I'm loyal to his products for that. AND its MORE than functional enough. So you made one that's functionalererer, huh? But I didn't have a problem with the last one.

Tell me, do you drive a Benz?  Old Karl in Germany came up with the first automobile so we could get horses off the streets.  I'm sure there were people that thought there was no need for yet another brand of automobile too.  But it's all about options.  The more options you and I have as consumers, the more likely it will be that we can just go buy what we want and not have to try to build it ourselves.  That's why I made three options available for the same product.  I wanted to give people the flexibility in involvement and cost that was appropriate for them, even though it's more difficult for me to have several versions to manufacture and keep track of.

But it's easy to ignore those things when you are "loyal" to a piece of hardware.

RandyT
« Last Edit: February 12, 2003, 10:41:49 pm by RandyT »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2003, 10:01:17 pm »
That's actually why RandyT made it:)  It's cheaper in the US:)

Ok SP, now that my defenses are up, what did you mean by that  :)

RandyT

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2003, 10:06:49 pm »
I asked for a public clarification as to how they were the same and so far haven't got one.


I asked if there would be linux version of your software, and so far I haven't gotten an answer yet either.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2003, 10:29:22 pm »
It's a competitive market.  I personally think the iPac could be a little cheaper for what it is.  This is where the Keywhiz comes in.  Sure, it doesn't have the keyboard LED option.  The harness on the iPAC was $15, for crying out loud.  Buy a keywhiz max and hack a cheap keyboard for it's lights, and hook it into the pass-through.

I'm all for competition.  I don't see anything wrong with somebody buying a product because it's competitive with the "popular" product.  If the keywhiz picks up in popularity like I think it should (I'd give one a shot if I make another cabinet), then perhaps that will drop the price of the iPac, or drive Ultimarc to come up with future enhancements.  This could lead to both products being cheap, and full of bells and whistles.  Maybe more little companies will start up making these circuit boards.  Bring it on!  Competition is what drives innovation.

I hate Dodge.  Have never liked them.  What do I drive?  A Dodge!  Why?  Because it's a good car, it was cheap, and convenient.  I don't like Microsoft.  What OS do I use?  I say god bless companies (even if they are monopolies) for making products that are easy to use, and cater to a variety of different people's tastes.  It's not my fault that Linux is greek to most Windows users - nor is it theirs.  If they really want to compete, they'll make it easy to adapt to.  Hence Lindows.

Kudos to Andy at Ultimarc, and Kudos to RandyT.  Diversity rocks!

That's the rest of my $.   ;D

Odonadon
« Last Edit: February 12, 2003, 10:31:42 pm by Odonadon »
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2003, 10:30:03 pm »
I was going to order an I-pac but I am definitely going to try the KeyWiz standard.  Will likely order it tomorrow!

Wade

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2003, 10:54:15 pm »
I asked for a public clarification as to how they were the same and so far haven't got one.


I asked if there would be linux version of your software, and so far I haven't gotten an answer yet either.

Sorry, I meant to but got sidetracked.

I would love to offer Linux Support, but so far everything you see on the KeyWiz has been done by me, right down to the logo.  But I don't program heavily in C.  I do program for DOS though and will be starting on that one shortly.  But it probably won't have the features of the Windows version.

If you know someone willing to write Linux software for KeyWiz in trade for product, send them my way.  I'd be happy to try to work out something with them.

As a side note, I can supply a custom chip with 2 sets of your choosing that will be available at power on with no programming.  Not much, I realise,  but it might help the Linux folks get by until there is a better solution.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2003, 11:33:02 pm »
just a quick question, Randy..

the Keywhiz is truly Made in the USA, right? not assembled somewhere else?.. If it's made in the USA ,(if it says so on the box and/or PCB) and is a computer component (chips on a PCB and a PS/2 port, looks computery enough to me:-) then the free trade act will let it into Canada duty free?
 (I can guess you're pretty busy, so I'll call one of the customs folks if you don't know for sure, but I thought you may have already been asked and found an answer..)

thanks,
x
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2003, 01:05:52 am »
50 replys, over 700 views and only one guy that thinks the keywiz is a bad thing.

Brax is it possible that the keywiz and the ipac are both great products? I don't think the keywiz is going to replace the ipac. I believe the market for these devices is big enough to support both of them and they will both grow.

The LED's are important to you but I think you are over estimating their popularity. What manufactured control panel takes advantage of this feature? Not even the slick stick who use the ipac in their control panel offer this as an option and they offer just about every other option available on control panels that go as high as $700. You would think that if this feature was so much in demand that someone would offer it. I have been to every working link in the almost 600 example web pages on this board and there aren't many that use the keyboard LED's. Its to bad thats not one of the questions on the project submittal page because it would be interesting to see how many actually do.

Andy has brought us some innovative products and I'm sure he will continue to do so. I'm sure the video card was not a cheap or easy undertaking but when it pays off I'm sure Andy will contimue to bring new products and improve his existing ones. Randy is offering us a choice and I'm equally sure when he succeeds there will be innovative products from him as well. From a consumer stand point we can only benefit from competition. It will drive improvements, more choices, and competative prices.
My statements are my own opinions. They have the value that the reader gives them. My opinion of my opinion varies between foolish and brilliant and these opinions often change with new information.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2003, 05:35:15 am »
well my ipac just arrived today and this is the first cab I am building so cant say my opinions of how it performs I am hoping after what I have read well

aside from the fact that I am in the UK so would probably go with the ipac for the same reason most people I imagine will go with the keywizz in the US (simple shipping)

If I was to purchase another and shipping wasnt an issue I personally would be very tempted by yours as it does everything I personally want and I am a skin flint who doesnt want to pay for extra features

Like randyT says its all about options and I would like to thank him for making this product and feel that the US peeps should be particuarly happy with him

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2003, 06:50:04 am »
Thanks for the answer, Randy.  It was what I expected, but I'm sure as the keywhiz becomes a popular choice, software will be written by an enthusiastic MAMEr.  Ya know, it may not hurt to put a little blurb on your website about your offer for a programmer.  You may be able to support linux quicker than you think.  :)


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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2003, 07:09:14 am »
50 replys, over 700 views and only one guy that thinks the keywiz is a bad thing.

Brax is it possible that the keywiz and the ipac are both great products? I don't think the keywiz is going to replace the ipac. I believe the market for these devices is big enough to support both of them and they will both grow.

The LED's are important to you but I think you are over estimating their popularity. What manufactured control panel takes advantage of this feature? Not even the slick stick who use the ipac in their control panel offer this as an option and they offer just about every other option available on control panels that go as high as $700. You would think that if this feature was so much in demand that someone would offer it. I have been to every working link in the almost 600 example web pages on this board and there aren't many that use the keyboard LED's. Its to bad thats not one of the questions on the project submittal page because it would be interesting to see how many actually do.

Andy has brought us some innovative products and I'm sure he will continue to do so. I'm sure the video card was not a cheap or easy undertaking but when it pays off I'm sure Andy will contimue to bring new products and improve his existing ones. Randy is offering us a choice and I'm equally sure when he succeeds there will be innovative products from him as well. From a consumer stand point we can only benefit from competition. It will drive improvements, more choices, and competative prices.

Who said I think it's a bad thing? I think it's superfluous but not a bad thing. If you're driving a block down the street to get groceries you're not going to get there any faster if you take the family car or a Ferrarri. Meeting your needs is meeting your needs.

Manufactured products don't use LED's so therefore they're not popular? Last time I checked this is BUILD your own arcade controls. I'm talking about the build community, no one else. What I did say was that's it's becoming popular currently because a few good builders have had the innovative idea to modify player one and two buttons to include the LEDs. Since then, a few of the other good builders here have followed suit. ......As I plan to. Anywhere else on you control panel I find they look cheesy and tacked on. But inside your player buttons? Brilliant. As more people see how good they look, more and more will add them as well. Thats just the way it seems to work around here.

If you build a frankenpanel, chances are I don't care for you as a person.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2003, 07:14:14 am »
Thought I'd throw my 2 cents into the fray!
Quote
<LED support>
We did.  Look for the poll that was conducted on this site.  Hundreds viewed the poll, and only about a dozen felt it was important enough to even vote on.  Out of the dozen, only 2 said they found it to be important.  A few said "maybe" and more than that said it wasn't important to them at all.  And if you plan on using low current LEDs for your modified buttons, plan on playing with the lights out.  It'll probably be only way you'll see them.
First off, LED support is planned as an add-on product for the KeyWiz, see previous announcement thread. http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4396;start=0

Secondly, the lack of on-board support is one of the main things keeping me from the product.  I realize I can't complain too much as I didn't respond to the poll, but here is the poll in question: http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=4512

I wouldn't make a marketing decision on twelve replies.  And as much as I like the LED feature, the question was "Is LED support a requirement for a keyboard encoder?"  My answer is "no" as there are clearly encoders out there without LED support, Hagstrom, button box, etc.  However, if the question is "Would you be less likely to purchase an encoder based on lack of LED support?"  Different answer!

OTOH, Randy said that LED support would take away three inputs from the processor, so the Keywiz with 29 inputs and LED support is much closer to an I-PAC/2 clone.  My final point being, I would definitely like the KeyWiz with 32-inputs and LED support, but 32 inputs without is probably a better decision than 29 inputs with.
Quote
<Brax wrote>As for the IPAC on the fly key remapping.... You really know nothing about it? You didn't research the single most popular (and LOVED) keyboard encoder out there? You just figured you'd make something better huh? Almost sounds arrogant to me.

<RandyT wrote>I asked for a public clarification as to how they were the same and so far haven't got one.  Perhaps you can do this.
Randy, in all fairness, you didn't really specify how switching codesets worked on the KeyWiz, I don't know that many people know how to clarify your request.  Since I am fairly familiar with this and it is confusing to many people, I will try to clarify.

The I-PAC allows you to define alternate code sets and then call them from a batch file to reprogram the EEPROM, loading the codeset "on-the-fly", sortof.

The KeyWiz uses a different approach, there is no EEPROM, codesets are stored in SDRAM and by pressing the Shazaam! key and moving the joystick you can change codesets more quickly than reprogramming an I-PAC.  (You can also change codesets from a batch file the I-PAC way, if you are more comfortable with this and are considering a KeyWiz).

So the KeyWiz allows additional programmability in addition to that offered by the I-PAC.  OTOH, if you want to use an alternate codeset, you can re-program your I-PAC and it will remember the new codes, while the KeyWiz will always have to re-load the alternate set (can be done from command line in the autoexec.bat, not a big deal in practice)

I know this isn't news to RandyT, but it will be to people unfamiliar with the KeyWiz.  Please advise if I was incorrect on anything.  I don't have access to either product personally.
Quote
I have already sent two potential customers to solutions other than mine.
I think I am one of the potential customers referred to above.

First off, I wasn't "sent" to solutions other than the KeyWiz, I discovered a product that was more suitable with what I was trying to accomplish.  To RandyT's credit, when I compared the product to the KeyWiz and the KeyWiz was not meeting my needs as well as the competing product, RandyT agreed with my conclusions rather than trying to make me go with his product regardless.

Having said that, the product I am considering is considerably more expensive than the KeyWiz, and I haven't made a purchase yet, so I am not ruling out the KeyWiz, by any means.

Okay, I'm done until someone else writes something I want to respond to!!!
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When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2003, 07:37:33 am »
Quote
As for the IPAC on the fly key remapping.... You really know nothing about it? You didn't research the single most popular (and LOVED) keyboard encoder out there? You just figured you'd make something better huh? Almost sounds arrogant to me.



Quote
Lets just say I know more about that product than you most likely do.  If that's what you call arrogance, so be it.  The only "on the fly remapping" that I'm aware of on the IPAC is very different from what was described on my product, yet the two were compared as though they were the same through a vague inference.  This is misleading and was masked as an attempt to be helpful to people that didn't know any better.  This is not fair to those people and does nothing to help understand the distinctions between the two products.  I asked for a public clarification as to how they were the same and so far haven't got one.  Perhaps you can do this.

Yes I do call that arrogance. You know NOTHING about me and what I know.

As far as a public clarification as to how they're the same.... Of course I can't. I haven't even seen your product. I've heard a description, but it's only just that, a description.
I believe in being brutally objective. I don't see how I could do an objective comparison until I see the two products together.

Assuming all your claims are true I may try and put something together anyways.

I'd love to get these two products together and "stress test" them!

hmm... maximum buttons on both..... utilize all the I-PAC's pass throughs and LED options... 4 people trying to register as many inputs as possible...  Try the IPAC in both ps/2 and usb and see if they're any noticable performance differences while under full load.... Put all the sortware features head to head... There would be alot to do for a proper comparison actually.

Things to record:

What are the maximum number of inputs that can be registered at once for both products?
Does the IPAC show any limitations when pushed at its 4 player maximum?
Does the KeyWiz show any? Is there a noticable performance difference?

Are all the software features comparable? Does one have any percieved strengths over another?

Ease of use, functionality, cost comparisions... (my personal cost comarison wouldn't be so cut and dry..... I get dinged equally for expensive shipping and US exchange.... it might put the two products closer together than you'd expect)
etc, etc, etc.


I just think its mute to say "It's better" "Its worse!"
So far I've just been asking why..... and pushing claims a bit.

My point is that there's maybe only two people here that have seen both here and neither of them have really beat on the two products like I'd want to.

Advertising claims are a personal pet peeve of mine. Since I've heard these claims I'm seriously interested in proving some of them. I think it would be an interesting experiment.
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #56 on: February 13, 2003, 09:52:35 am »
I see it now...  A message board divided by I-PAC fanboys and KeyWiz fanboys  ;D


Now with cup beer holders!

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #57 on: February 13, 2003, 10:03:13 am »
It's a competitive market.  I personally think the iPac could be a little cheaper for what it is.  This is where the Keywhiz comes in.  Sure, it doesn't have the keyboard LED option.  The harness on the iPAC was $15, for crying out loud.  Buy a keywhiz max and hack a cheap keyboard for it's lights, and hook it into the pass-through.

### i'm staying away from the rest of the discussion###
Hey Odonadon,  FYI:

I'm not sure that, that would work like you'd think it would, in that the pass thru isn't a passthru so much as a switch between using EITHER the "passthru" keyboard or the KEYWIZ (but only 1 at any given time) for input.

Now... maybe the led's could be rigged up on the parallel USB keyboard... but that's for someone else to try =P

rampy

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2003, 10:31:39 am »
Just something I wanted to point out (man, now I'm not so sure, this innocent post is becoming a warzone)

Randy talked about how he dislikes the usb port and feels that it can't get the job done.  Well it can as the ipac works just as well in usb mode as in ps2, but that's not what I wanted to talk about.  

If you make a new product and expect it to last more than a couple of years it better support usb.  Why?  Because computer manufacturers are slowly phasing out all ports except usb and firewire.  They do this becuase it's cheaper and more efficent in terms of hardware and software to make motherboards this way.  

I feel that the ps2 probably has a year or two left.  I've already seen mb's with NOTHING but firewire and usb.  It used to be that this wouldn't be an issue as older pc's were used for mame cabs, but now days it takes a beefy pc to run a lot of the games.  

And in regards to the key-repeater function, as peter and the others said, all fe's around here are coded with that in mind (also gamelauncher and aos, so that is the majority of all fes), and if you aren't using one of our fe's then what's wrong with you? ;)

Something else that's just a note.... you can almost have a 4 player layout with ipac2 because 4 player games don't use start buttons.  This is due to jamma+ constraints  (see even real arcade games don't use that many inputs)  and a sheer lack of control panel space.  Try out tmnt and notice that the game starts, not when you press "start" but when you press "punch".  Capcom 4 player games are also like this as well as any 4 player game I know of in mame, so I'm assuming this is a universal thing.  Now with that being said, you still need 8 more buttons, but i'm just saying, that's the maximum any arcade game is ever going to use.  

And THAT was my point on the extra inputs.  36 is the most inputs you are ever going to need. (Heck make it 38 or 40 for some extra fuction buttons) And for you console fans out there that are saying "nu uh" answer me this:  Do you know of a single, all digital game that supports more than 4 players and the players actually use more than 4 buttons? Flight sim games?  Well they use analog inputs so you would have the full compliment of buttons, including the directional inputs.  


So having an better buffer/encoder chip/matrix/ect isn't necessary... it's nice but when you look at those facts I would think that just about everyone would agree that some of the inputs could have been sacrificed for other features like led inputs. (I see you are working on adding this, which is a good thing.)  

Also regarding the redefining of inputs... on the fly is cool and the ipac also has a software free method, although from what you've explained it's more primitave.  BUT the ipac has on-the-fly scheme uploading and the software works on every major os, including linux and mac's, which is something that your encoder can't even do. (At least i'm guessing judging by the way you have talked about possible support for other oses.)  

So again I state that the features you say the ipac lacks, it actually does not.  It's went about differently, but it's the same result.  And the other features you mentioned are completely unnecessary.  

But yours is cheaper....  so it will do well.  Why don't you just market it as a "cheaper ipac" instead of adding these marketing buzz words.  

Mind you I'm a big fan of marketing pitches and I think it's something that andy really needs to work on.  But talking about a feature that really isn't a feature makes it sound like you are trying to put something over on your customers and many people are turned off by that.  (I think that's what brax's unjustly hostile comments were getting at.)  

An example of this is your shazaam key... the way you pitch it in your faq it sound like you are saying it's better than the ipac's shift feature.  The fact is, except for the lack of delay (which isn't an issue as secondary keys don't need to be pressed quickly)  it's exactly the same as the shift feature.  

I think that taking a more honest approach would actually sell more products.  I'm not saying that you are taking a dishonest approach, but the way you word things is very shady when you take a step back and look.  The fact is, despite your hard work on the product it's always going to be looked at by the consumer as an "ipac clone."  I think that's a good thing, because when you can say that your product works just as well as the ipac but is a little cheaper people will buy it.  But my point is your going to have to accept this fact and work it to it's advantage instead of defending so-so features, that although are technically impressive, have little to no practical application.  


The thing is you don't need to "sell" the prodcut to us that much.  It should be very good and it's cheaper, and even with some of the ipac's more popular features removed that's going to be enough for a lot of people.

My point is (and everyone, including the negative posters in this thread should listen up)  We are comparing apples to apples here.  Just because one is a little "bigger" won't make any difference as you are paying by the pound.  Everyone needs to stop getting hung up on technical specs and just accept the fact that they are two VERY similar products  and neither is better.  

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2003, 10:36:46 am »
I wouldn't make a marketing decision on twelve replies.  And as much as I like the LED feature, the question was "Is LED support a requirement for a keyboard encoder?"  My answer is "no" as there are clearly encoders out there without LED support, Hagstrom, button box, etc.  However, if the question is "Would you be less likely to purchase an encoder based on lack of LED support?"  Different answer!

Actually it was lack of response on this topic that painted a clear picture.  People tend to be vocal about the things they feel strongly about.  That's why vocal minorities often get their way.  The poll had 12 responses and over 200 "reads".  One can draw a number of conclusions from this.

1:  Only 200 reads, but much larger numbers of people frequent the board.  That tends to indicate that even after reading the heading on the post, large numbers of people didn't care enough about the topic to even read or follow the discussion.

2:  Out of the 200 reads, only 12 people bothered to respond to the poll (me being one of them).  A further indication of indifference.

3: The numbers that did respond, showed only a third that could definitely say "yes" it did matter.  Here, I will agree that 12 is not much of a sample, so this played a smaller part in the decision.

Also, I have a had a number of discussions with people whose response was along the lines of "it sounds cool, but I'll probably never use it".

Quote
Randy, in all fairness, you didn't really specify how switching codesets worked on the KeyWiz, I don't know that many people know how to clarify your request.  Since I am fairly familiar with this and it is confusing to many people, I will try to clarify.

If you look back in this thread, I specifically stated that both sets were available at all times from the CP, without having to reprogram.  HC then blew it off saying that the same thing could be done on the IPAC, but worked "differently".  I was asking for details on this statement.

Information on this feature is shown about 4 times on my website.  I assumed that someone claming to be an authority on both products would have taken the time to read it.

Quote
I have already sent two potential customers to solutions other than mine.
Quote
I think I am one of the potential customers referred to above.

First off, I wasn't "sent" to solutions other than the KeyWiz, I discovered a product that was more suitable with what I was trying to accomplish.  To RandyT's credit, when I compared the product to the KeyWiz and the KeyWiz was not meeting my needs as well as the competing product, RandyT agreed with my conclusions rather than trying to make me go with his product regardless.

Having said that, the product I am considering is considerably more expensive than the KeyWiz, and I haven't made a purchase yet, so I am not ruling out the KeyWiz, by any means.

No, you weren't counted  :D.  I have had quite a number of people asking questions lately.  Some have very specific ideas about what they want, and if I can't find some way to provide it, I point them in the direction that will help them.  It wouldn't be right to do otherwise.

Thanks for the help.
RandyT
« Last Edit: February 13, 2003, 01:35:38 pm by RandyT »

eightbit

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2003, 11:42:29 am »
I wouldn't make a marketing decision on twelve replies.  And as much as I like the LED feature, the question was "Is LED support a requirement for a keyboard encoder?"  My answer is "no" as there are clearly encoders out there without LED support, Hagstrom, button box, etc.  However, if the question is "Would you be less likely to purchase an encoder based on lack of LED support?"  Different answer!
Randy didn't post that poll I did. Saint or PJ (I don't remember) turned on the polling feature after this came up one night in chat and I asked whether the message board supported polls so that I could ask the question. Randy's decision to not offer LED support was already set at that point. I posted it out of curiousity. Any one thats taken a marketing or statistics class can tell you any poll can provide the result you want based on how you ask the question and how you interpet the results. I think it was still a fair question though since most of what we are argueing is whether or not it is a required feature.

Brax how would you propose it be tested? I have both products and would love to do a side by side but I don't see how it can be done without some fancy electronic equipment. If you have any ideas I would love to give it a try. My ipac and keywiz are on quick connects so I can easily and quickly switch back and forth between them in the same cabinet. I'm not going to keep it that way much longer though. I'm trying to decide which one to leave in that cab and which one to put into the next cab. I'm certainly not throwing my ipac away. The real question is do I want to get  a swappable 4 player panel on that cab or build a 4 player cabinet. The keywiz will go with where I decide to put 4 players.

I don't agree with HC on marketing it as an Ipac replacement. That would be inviting some kind of lawsuit or something. Randy has to differeniate how his product is different. I like the fact that he's here explaining why he made the decisions he did. There were things about the keywiz that I didn't agree with him on. It comes down to prioritys and compromises.

I also don't agree with HC on the ps/2 ports going away. Compaq is doing this on some of their small form facter desktops and we bought them for a while. Now we are back to buying the PS/2 versions. We're a small company employing over 80,000 people in 5 states, not that what we do is any indicator. My prediction is its going to be like the floppy drive and be there forever. Its odd how devices like the ls120 drive that were floppy compatible never really caught on. USB KB's and mice use more processing cycles than there ps/2 counterparts. Is it significant? I guess thats debateable. With faster USB spec's it will keep getting better. Perhaps Randy will change his stance in the future, it wasn't that terribly long ago that the Ipac began supporting USB.

I hacked a sidewinder game pad into a cab mostly so that I could form my own opinion on hacking gamepads and debate it more intelligently. I'm not as negative about them as I used to be but I likely won't do another one. I would encourage Brax or someone less biased than me to invest the time and money to give these things a side by side. Perhaps we should ask Oscar he's done some good reviews. Saints been silent somebody should wake him up and ask his opinion. He has one already.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2003, 11:57:44 am »
An example of this is your shazaam key... the way you pitch it in your faq it sound like you are saying it's better than the ipac's shift feature.  The fact is, except for the lack of delay (which isn't an issue as secondary keys don't need to be pressed quickly)  it's exactly the same as the shift feature.  
I disagree, it is different in that Shazaam! does not take away an input.  So when you say the I-PAC is 28 inputs and 32 for the KeyWiz, it is more like 33 for the KeyWiz but the Shazaam! won't send a keycode, or 27 for the i-pac, but the now dedicated Shift key could send a key code.

The advantage is this:  Shift keys are fine to quit the game where I'm done playing and want to press Start 1 and some other button to exit (even then it could have problems).

As a hypothetical, let's assume the KeyWiz only had 28 inputs plus Shazaam!

With the I-PAC, I use 16 inputs for joysticks and 12 for buttons, so all inputs are taken.  I can use the Punch, as a Start button, but either I have to map Coin, Start, and Punch to the same key, and I get a bunch of credits for each move, or I use the Shift function, but which one - Player 1 Punch, and then Player 4 has to reach across and press Player 1 Punch and Player 4 Punch to add another credit???

With the mythical 28-input KeyWiz, I can place the Shazaam! key in the center of the panel.  Assign Shazaam!-P1 Punch to coin 1, etc. and I have a working 4-player Panel.

NOTE:  Not taking side either way, the I-PAC has some nice features that the KeyWiz lacks, but I DO think the Shazaam! key is an improvement over the I-PAC implementation.
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2003, 12:01:52 pm »
Part#1 of the Saga :)


If you make a new product and expect it to last more than a couple of years it better support usb.  Why?  Because computer manufacturers are slowly phasing out all ports except usb and firewire.  They do this becuase it's cheaper and more efficent in terms of hardware and software to make motherboards this way.  

Ok Howard, who wrote this post for you?  :D

Seriously though, you still put words in my mouth.  If you look at what I wrote, I said that "USB keyboard technology" is what I have reservations about.  There are technical limitations with using current low-cost USB microcontrollers designed for keyboards in this application.  There are some really great high-speed USB controllers out there to do this type of stuff, but in my opinion the future will require a better hardware base than that of the standard keyboard controller to do it well.

While I agree with you somewhat on the future, I don't agree on the timeframe.  Serial and parallel ports have been with us forever, and will probably continue to be.  I too have seen these systems with poor connectivity, and most of the time they are being sold as surplus.  Motherboard manufacturers know that they will limit their market severely if they do not offer backward compatibility with peripherals that the consumer might already own.  Being as smart as they are, they probably won't forfeit this to save a buck or two on the motherboard.  For this reason, I see it being around a lot longer than you do, but it's all conjecture (unless there's a time machine we don't know about :))

Quote
And in regards to the key-repeater function, as peter and the others said, all fe's around here are coded with that in mind

If all you plan on using is an FE, that's fine.  But it is still a limitation that the KeyWiz does not have.

Quote
And THAT was my point on the extra inputs.  36 is the most inputs you are ever going to need. (Heck make it 38 or 40 for some extra fuction buttons) And for you console fans out there that are saying "nu uh" answer me this:  Do you know of a single, all digital game that supports more than 4 players and the players actually use more than 4 buttons? Flight sim games?  Well they use analog inputs so you would have the full compliment of buttons, including the directional inputs.  


So having an better buffer/encoder chip/matrix/ect isn't necessary... it's nice but when you look at those facts I would think that just about everyone would agree that some of the inputs could have been sacrificed for other features like led inputs. (I see you are working on adding this, which is a good thing.)  

Here I strongly disagree with one part of your statement.  If you have 4 players moving joysticks in circle motions (ie. hitting a lot of diagonals quickly, activating 2 inputs at a time) and mashing a lot of buttons, you had better have a fast processor to monitor all of this activity, and a large buffer to store all the keycodes being generated.

Each time you press and release a switch, 3 characters are sent to the PC.  If it's a diagonal stick direction, that's 6.  If the switch is mapped to one of the "special function" keys (pgup, pgdown, the directional arrows, etc.), each of these needs 5 characters per transition, or 10 on a diagonal.  Do the research, then do the math (like I did :)) and you'll quickly see the importance of fast processing and large buffers.

Quote
BUT the ipac has on-the-fly scheme uploading and the software works on every major os, including linux and mac's, which is something that your encoder can't even do.

I'll be the first to conceed that OS compatibility is not a strong point of the KeyWiz, but it does serve the majority.  It should also be noted that KeyWiz is a new product and from what I can tell (and I may be wrong), the only reason this support exists for the IPAC is that users took it upon themselves to provide it.  I am already exploring the prospects of Linux support.


To be continued................
« Last Edit: February 13, 2003, 12:50:28 pm by RandyT »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2003, 12:02:43 pm »
One thing that concerns me with the Ipac is the EEPROM. Isn't it true that it can only be reprogrammed a certain number of times? At that point, does it fail? Does the performance degrade gradually after a certain point? (I realize that the number is very high, in the tens of thousands or something)

And how long does it take to reprogram the chip?

Is the reprogramming on the KeyWiz faster? Does it have a max number like the Ipac does?

Quote
I get dinged equally for expensive shipping and US exchange....

You in the UK Brax? I really don't understand why you have such animosity towards RandyT and his product. If you've got a problem with the claims he is making, why not nicely ask him to clarify rather than jumping down his throat. Actually, I notice you do that a lot. Your posts are often abrasive and not at all constructive. I'm beginning to think that you simply like to hear yourself rant.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2003, 12:03:04 pm »
Part #2 of the Saga :)


Quote
But yours is cheaper....  so it will do well.  Why don't you just market it as a "cheaper ipac" instead of adding these marketing buzz words.  
(snip....)
An example of this is your shazaam key... the way you pitch it in your faq it sound like you are saying it's better than the ipac's shift feature.  The fact is, except for the lack of delay (which isn't an issue as secondary keys don't need to be pressed quickly)  it's exactly the same as the shift feature.  

I'm sorry Howard, but you are dead wrong here.  The "Shazaaam!" key is not exactly the same.  Like it or not, use of the shift function on the IPAC always relegates that button to one that cannot be used for a normal control without the possibility of the shift feature kicking in.  By normal, I mean not a "start" or administrative function.  That means if you tried to make a 4 player panel and still wished to use the shift function, subtract that one from the number available for your controls.  This is absolutely NOT the case with the Shazaaam! key.

A recent poster on the forums also asked if he could have individual buttons perform the shifted functions, and the reply was "no".  I can tell you that you *can* have individual Shazaaam! buttons with the KeyWiz.  Does it take a little extra to do?  Yes.  But what doesn't when pushing hardware to it's limits.  Using the standard KeyWiz in this fashion, coupled with the speed and large buffer, makes a 4 player CP a very viable option using the KeyWiz.

Quote
I think that taking a more honest approach would actually sell more products.  I'm not saying that you are taking a dishonest approach, but the way you word things is very shady when you take a step back and look.  The fact is, despite your hard work on the product it's always going to be looked at by the consumer as an "ipac clone."  I think that's a good thing, because when you can say that your product works just as well as the ipac but is a little cheaper people will buy it.  But my point is your going to have to accept this fact and work it to it's advantage instead of defending so-so features, that although are technically impressive, have little to no practical application.  

Just because you don't fully understand the truth, does not make that truth a lie.  I worked very hard and invested large amounts of time and money to design something that would appeal to the majority of people, provide a capability that did not exist before, and do it at a price unheard of for this type of product.  The KeyWiz is an IPAC clone, only in the sense that an IPAC (and KeyWiz for that matter) is a keyboard clone.  To make a statement like that sells short the efforts and, regardless of your opinion, real features of each (except for the keyboard :))

And if you want to talk about marketing, I do not want the KeyWiz to be seen as an "IPAC clone"  They are two different products with different feature sets.  Do they both look like a keyboard to the PC?  Yes, but that is where the similarity ends.

Something no-one has touched on here are also physical characteristics.  The KeyWiz is also smaller, which makes it easy to tuck under a control panel.  But to be fair, an IPAC isn't all that large either.

Quote
The thing is you don't need to "sell" the prodcut to us that much.  It should be very good and it's cheaper, and even with some of the ipac's more popular features removed that's going to be enough for a lot of people.

My point is (and everyone, including the negative posters in this thread should listen up)  We are comparing apples to apples here.  Just because one is a little "bigger" won't make any difference as you are paying by the pound.  Everyone needs to stop getting hung up on technical specs and just accept the fact that they are two VERY similar products  and neither is better.  

If all I was trying to do is "sell" the product, I would have bailed out of this foray a long time ago.  But I cannot sit idly by while individuals spread misinformation about the product.  Unfortunately I have to include you in this group.  Your opinions are your opinions and those can't be changed (Lord knows I've tried  :D).  The only real fact that you have provided is that both products are similar in what they do and the KeyWiz is less expensive.  Whether one is better than the other, will depend on the application an individual has in mind.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

RandyT
« Last Edit: February 13, 2003, 03:26:27 pm by RandyT »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2003, 12:19:27 pm »
One thing that concerns me with the Ipac is the EEPROM. Isn't it true that it can only be reprogrammed a certain number of times? At that point, does it fail? Does the performance degrade gradually after a certain point? (I realize that the number is very high, in the tens of thousands or something)

And how long does it take to reprogram the chip?

Is the reprogramming on the KeyWiz faster? Does it have a max number like the Ipac does?
Usually, I've seen EEPROM's quoted at 1,000,000 reprogrammings before failure.  The chip should last longer than any of us will.  However, eventually, they will not reprogram and quit working.  Don't know if they gradually degrade or just eventually quit altogether?

I've seen quotes of under 1 second for reprogramming, but I think a lot depends on OS, software, and interface.

KeyWix uses SDRAM, so reprogramming should be faster and no max number, but RandyT could answer this more accurately.
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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2003, 12:43:20 pm »
One thing that concerns me with the Ipac is the EEPROM. Isn't it true that it can only be reprogrammed a certain number of times? At that point, does it fail? Does the performance degrade gradually after a certain point? (I realize that the number is very high, in the tens of thousands or something)

And how long does it take to reprogram the chip?

Is the reprogramming on the KeyWiz faster? Does it have a max number like the Ipac does?

Don't be too concerned about the EEPROM.  Most are rated at minimum of 100,000 writes and maximum 1,000,000.  

The KeyWiz writes to the internal SRAM, and I have never seen a limitation on this type of memory, as it's the same type of memory the processor does it's work in.

Programming time on the KeyWiz varies by OS, due to technical constraints.  I had the option of using a faster, unverified scheme, that took 2 seconds or one  that provides feedback and a checksum at 5 seconds.  I chose the more reliable 5 second one for 98.

On 2K/XP it takes longer.  Again, the same scheme, but due to OS differences, it takes about 10 seconds for 2K/XP.

I expect the (eventual) DOS version to be the fastest, as the hardware can be directly addressed without going through Windows API's.

It's probably not the fastest out there, but it is very reliable.

RandyT
« Last Edit: February 13, 2003, 12:44:59 pm by RandyT »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2003, 01:50:03 am »
It's a competitive market.  I personally think the iPac could be a little cheaper for what it is.  This is where the Keywhiz comes in.  Sure, it doesn't have the keyboard LED option.  The harness on the iPAC was $15, for crying out loud.  Buy a keywhiz max and hack a cheap keyboard for it's lights, and hook it into the pass-through.

### i'm staying away from the rest of the discussion###
Hey Odonadon,  FYI:

I'm not sure that, that would work like you'd think it would, in that the pass thru isn't a passthru so much as a switch between using EITHER the "passthru" keyboard or the KEYWIZ (but only 1 at any given time) for input.

Are you serious?  Well, that limits that option then.  I know the iPac has a true keyboard pass-through - that's how I tested my LED harness on the iPac in the first place.  So for now, there's no hope in an LED solution for the Keywiz.  Too bad.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2003, 02:02:56 am »
Quote
Something no-one has touched on here are also physical characteristics.  The KeyWiz is also smaller, which makes it easy to tuck under a control panel.  But to be fair, an IPAC isn't all that large either.

Actually, I would say the small size of the keywiz would be a disadvantage.  I can't tell you how many times I thanked god for the long rows of inputs on the iPac as I wired it.  It got kinda ugly with the start1/2 and coin1/2 up on the side, but I managed.  I did have extra wires criss-crossing, which made it a little harder to group together.  I can only imagine it'd be worse on the Keywiz.  But then comes the price thing again.  I'd be willing to deal with these hassles (provided I get both LED and true keyboard passthrough) if it meant saving ~ $20.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2003, 02:12:06 am »
It's a competitive market.  I personally think the iPac could be a little cheaper for what it is.  This is where the Keywhiz comes in.  Sure, it doesn't have the keyboard LED option.  The harness on the iPAC was $15, for crying out loud.  Buy a keywhiz max and hack a cheap keyboard for it's lights, and hook it into the pass-through.

### i'm staying away from the rest of the discussion###
Hey Odonadon,  FYI:

I'm not sure that, that would work like you'd think it would, in that the pass thru isn't a passthru so much as a switch between using EITHER the "passthru" keyboard or the KEYWIZ (but only 1 at any given time) for input.

Are you serious?  Well, that limits that option then.  I know the iPac has a true keyboard pass-through - that's how I tested my LED harness on the iPac in the first place.  So for now, there's no hope in an LED solution for the Keywiz.  Too bad.

Odonadon


Not true. :)

Solution #1: Cheap, effective and won't blink when you press buttons

Use a USB keyboard in parallel with the KeyWiz.
Open up the keyboard, remove the LEDs from the PCB, connect wires to the holes the LED's were in and run them to the LEDs on your CP.  

Solution #2.  Not as cheap, but will work with all software and high-ouput LEDs

Wait for the add-on :)

RandyT
« Last Edit: February 14, 2003, 02:42:39 am by RandyT »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2003, 02:19:40 am »
Quote
Something no-one has touched on here are also physical characteristics.  The KeyWiz is also smaller, which makes it easy to tuck under a control panel.  But to be fair, an IPAC isn't all that large either.

Actually, I would say the small size of the keywiz would be a disadvantage.  I can't tell you how many times I thanked god for the long rows of inputs on the iPac as I wired it.  It got kinda ugly with the start1/2 and coin1/2 up on the side, but I managed.  I did have extra wires criss-crossing, which made it a little harder to group together.  I can only imagine it'd be worse on the Keywiz.  But then comes the price thing again.  I'd be willing to deal with these hassles (provided I get both LED and true keyboard passthrough) if it meant saving ~ $20.

Odonadon

Trust me.  It's no worse.  Spaceing on a terminal block is the same, no matter the configuration.  Smaller size just makes it easier to find a place to mount it while keeping access to all the ports. :)

After using a keyboard hack/mouse hack/joypad hack all on one CP, the KeyWiz was a joy to install.  It's small enough that you can even mount it vertically with a bracket if you have a tiny control panel, like the one on a Defender or similar style cab.

RandyT


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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2003, 02:56:04 am »
Quote
Something no-one has touched on here are also physical characteristics.  The KeyWiz is also smaller, which makes it easy to tuck under a control panel.  But to be fair, an IPAC isn't all that large either.

Actually, I would say the small size of the keywiz would be a disadvantage.  I can't tell you how many times I thanked god for the long rows of inputs on the iPac as I wired it.  It got kinda ugly with the start1/2 and coin1/2 up on the side, but I managed.  I did have extra wires criss-crossing, which made it a little harder to group together.  I can only imagine it'd be worse on the Keywiz.  But then comes the price thing again.  I'd be willing to deal with these hassles (provided I get both LED and true keyboard passthrough) if it meant saving ~ $20.

Odonadon

Trust me.  It's no worse.  Spaceing on a terminal block is the same, no matter the configuration.  Smaller size just makes it easier to find a place to mount it while keeping access to all the ports. :)

After using a keyboard hack/mouse hack/joypad hack all on one CP, the KeyWiz was a joy to install.  It's small enough that you can even mount it vertically with a bracket if you have a tiny control panel, like the one on a Defender or similar style cab.

RandyT



I know the spacing is the same, but what I'm saying is the rows of terminals on 3 sides of the keywiz, as opposed to the 2 on the iPac.  They're layed out differently.  The terminals are U shaped on the keywiz, and L shaped on the iPac.  You may have wires from the left side of the U going to the right side of the control panel, and vice versa.  I had the same problem on the iPac (but smaller in scale) because the wires on the left side of the L were going to the right side of the CP, partially blocking access to the PS/2 ports on the iPac.  Re-routing these, with the keywiz, using clips might end up taking the same amount of space on the CP anyway.  For me, this wouldn't be a selling feature :)

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2003, 02:59:28 am »
Quote
Solution #1: Cheap, effective and won't blink when you press buttons

Use a USB keyboard in parallel with the KeyWiz.
Open up the keyboard, remove the LEDs from the PCB, connect wires to the holes the LED's were in and run them to the LEDs on your CP.  

Not much of  a solution.  More of a work around.  I'm sure it'll work, but you're needlessly subtracting yourself 1 USB port.  

I'm also not sure what you mean by the LEDs blinking when you hit a key?  I don't think I noticed this on the iPac.  I could be wrong.  It's happened before, and will happen again :)

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2003, 04:03:36 am »
Hey Randy.. nevermind these "nah-sayers"  Keywiz sound like a great deal and I'll be ordering one soon...  Geez.. I dont know what people expect for $26.95 maybe it should cure cancer or something?  and the LED thing is NOT that big of a deal to everyone... so your start buttons dont blink when you coin up.  That effects gameplay how?  like you dont know when to press them... If that feature is so important then buy an I-Pac and quit acting like Randy designed the thing just for YOU.  If I ever get bored someday then I might would add the LED feature via USB keyboard hack as described above and still have 3 USB ports left for 2 trackballs and 2 spinners..  

 What somebody needs to do is design a heavy duty driver board that will power LEDs, light bulbs, Gun recoil solenoids, Force feedback or whatever...  that way people who want that stuff would have the best solution possible and have adequate power.. then it would be up to the MAME dev to add support..   How hard could it be?  I could probably hack a keyboard to a driver board out of a pinball machine in no time.  So someone with real design skills could make something really nice if they put their minds to it...   Oh, but if somebody uses my idea I better get to at least beta test it ;D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2003, 04:04:57 am by brandon »

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2003, 04:56:36 am »
Something else that's just a note.... you can almost have a 4 player layout with ipac2 because 4 player games don't use start buttons.  This is due to jamma+ constraints  (see even real arcade games don't use that many inputs)  and a sheer lack of control panel space.  Try out tmnt and notice that the game starts, not when you press "start" but when you press "punch".  Capcom 4 player games are also like this as well as any 4 player game I know of in mame, so I'm assuming this is a universal thing.  Now with that being said, you still need 8 more buttons, but i'm just saying, that's the maximum any arcade game is ever going to use.  

im a bit perterbed... im not sure about the mame version, but I know the ddtod cab i purchased (a converted TMNT cab btw) has start buttons.  (goto http://www.ptialaska.net/~tagge/arcade%20machine/ to see a REAAAL arcade game)  start buttons that you need. to start the game.   If you total up all the inputs, it comes to 40 (4x4 for the joys, 4x4 for the buttons, and 4x2 for starts and coins).  I don't mean this as a personal attack, but i've seen this same quote (not quite word for word) a couple times, and i guess i want to point out there are exceptions to the rule.  *My* conversion needs at least 40 inputs, but because I desire to change the inner 2 controls to the 7 button design, i need 46... plus maybe 4 for function buttons, for a grand total of 50.  As far as I can tell, the keywiz max only supports 32, so it clearly doesn't fit my needs.  However, it fits many other peoples needs (as the rest of howardCs post said).  Still, i can't use a keywiz or a ipac2.  So it looks like i need to use an ipac4, which happens to have been designed with 4 player systems in mind.  Go figure.  The ipac was also designed with LEDs in mind.  the keywiz clearly has different goals in mind.  why the animosity about what seems to be a trivial thing??  no one is forcing you to buy a keywiz, and clearly those who are seriously interested in LEDs will buy ipacs or find a solution (as everyone here seems quite capable of doing)...

by the waaaay... is there any chance that there might be a "keywiz4" or something?  seems like he missed at least a marginal portion of the market: its seems like many people at BYOAC use gargantuan CPs...

~Dak~
« Last Edit: February 14, 2003, 05:17:12 am by Dak-ak »

SirPoonga

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2003, 05:07:45 am »
Quote
Solution #1: Cheap, effective and won't blink when you press buttons

Use a USB keyboard in parallel with the KeyWiz.
Open up the keyboard, remove the LEDs from the PCB, connect wires to the holes the LED's were in and run them to the LEDs on your CP.  

Not much of  a solution.  More of a work around.  I'm sure it'll work, but you're needlessly subtracting yourself 1 USB port.  

I'm also not sure what you mean by the LEDs blinking when you hit a key?  I don't think I noticed this on the iPac.  I could be wrong.  It's happened before, and will happen again :)

Odonadon

Taht;s part of my point on the LEDs used, they are mapped to like the play 1 button 8 and player 2 buttons 7 and 8 if I remember, I just now they blink when I pause my games:)

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2003, 05:10:36 am »
What somebody needs to do is design a heavy duty driver board that will power LEDs, light bulbs, Gun recoil solenoids, Force feedback or whatever...  that way people who want that stuff would have the best solution possible and have adequate power.. then it would be up to the MAME dev to add support..   How hard could it be?  I could probably hack a keyboard to a driver board out of a pinball machine in no time.  So someone with real design skills could make something really nice if they put their minds to it...   Oh, but if somebody uses my idea I better get to at least beta test it ;D

Easier said thatn done.  yeah, you could make the usb interface (already out there, there are usb controlled 16 relay boards).  The hard part is having mame support it.  One, all the drivers that would have to change.  Two, you force people to buy a certain product for this that right now isn;t cheap to make.

I know about this, I've been looking into what it would take to make a usb controlled qbert knocker.  There isn't a cheap way to do it now.  And parallel port will be tough since 2k and xp will need special coding.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2003, 05:21:18 am »

Easier said thatn done.  yeah, you could make the usb interface (already out there, there are usb controlled 16 relay boards).  The hard part is having mame support it.  One, all the drivers that would have to change.  Two, you force people to buy a certain product for this that right now isn;t cheap to make.

I know about this, I've been looking into what it would take to make a usb controlled qbert knocker.  There isn't a cheap way to do it now.  And parallel port will be tough since 2k and xp will need special coding.

Well... what if MAME dev made the Qbert knocker flash the Scroll Lock LED.. it wouldn't be that hard to make a simple circuit with a power transistor to power a solenoid.  Somebody could design a small board that would connect to the LED header on the I-Pac or to a hacked keyboard.. it could only support 3 things since thats all the LEDs there are but then you could have hellatious lights or whatever you wanted...  like you said it would be a matter of MAME dev supporting the feature...  of course then there is the problem of switching games.. I guess you wouldnt want a Qbert knocker going off everytime your 1up button flashed in DigDug ;D

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2003, 05:22:09 am »
by the waaaay... is there any chance that there might be a "keywiz4" or something?  seems like he missed at least a marginal portion of the market: its seems like many people at BYOAC use gargantuan CPs...

~Dak~

I don't see that many:)  There are some, but it is more economical to got he way I have, which many have done.  2 player cabinet and usb ports to plug in gamepads for those rare occations you actually have enough friends over that like the same few 4 player games in mame.  You college kids have no problem with this (other than lacking room in the dorm to put a cabinet).

Personally, I have yet to use my gamepads even though I had 8 people over for new years.  Too many good two player games:)  Otherwise the only othertime I had more than one player on my cabinet is when my roommate's girlfriend saw bubble bobble and wanted to play it with my roommate.

That will change though once I get a job and can finish it though:)

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2003, 09:01:36 am »
What somebody needs to do is design a heavy duty driver board that will power LEDs, light bulbs, Gun recoil solenoids, Force feedback or whatever...


Funny you should mention this.  While I'm not doing anything nearly that complex, I'm actually constructing a simple driver board to connect hi-power LED's that is controlled by an I-PAC right now to go in my cabinet.  I'm waiting on a part to finish it, but I'm planning on posting a couple of pics with the schematic next week when it is complete.


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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2003, 11:01:29 am »
Quote
Solution #1: Cheap, effective and won't blink when you press buttons

Use a USB keyboard in parallel with the KeyWiz.
Open up the keyboard, remove the LEDs from the PCB, connect wires to the holes the LED's were in and run them to the LEDs on your CP.  

Not much of  a solution.  More of a work around.  I'm sure it'll work, but you're needlessly subtracting yourself 1 USB port.  

Actually, the keyboard will still be fully functional.  So no lost USB port.  

And unless you purchase a pre-built harness for the "real solution" the work involved isn't alot different. :)  Another possible benefit is that you might be able to use brighter LEDs.  But that will depend on the keyboard.

Quote
I'm also not sure what you mean by the LEDs blinking when you hit a key?  I don't think I noticed this on the iPac.  I could be wrong.  It's happened before, and will happen again :)

A long thread mentioned as a link earlier in this thread.  Make sure you read it all the way through (or just skip to the end).  But to cut it short, if you aren't using the inputs that share the LEDs, you won't have that issue.

RandyT

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2003, 12:00:49 pm »
Having read the entire discussion several times, I'd like to offer my "final thoughts" :)

The iPac is great.  For a while there, the Ultimarc and Hagstrom encoders were the only way to go.  Now we have an even cheaper solution.  A new device that offers more inputs, while removing a few relatively unimportant gimmicks, at a must cheaper price.

Bottom line - if you REALLY want the LEDs and want it to be easy to hookup, go the iPac and LED harness route.  Granted, at 5v, the bulbs aren't too terribly bright.  But they work just the same.  Or wait for the feature to be added to the keywiz.  This route is going to cost you extra (almost double what a keywiz will).

At the same time, the keywiz offers us a speedier chip to handle all the "button mashing" better.  I haven't had any problems with the iPac in this regard, but hey, you can't go wrong for the price.

I'm sure the keyboard pass-through issue will be dealt with at some point as well. But it's not important for everyone.

What we have are two comparable devices, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses.  Price being one of the keywiz's selling points.  You have to decided for yourself which product you want.  Personally, I will have to give the keywiz a shot for my next cab (if there will be one).  You just can't go wrong for the price.  I mean, come on!  With shipping and duty charges (minus LED harness), I would've saved myself almost $50!  Go keywiz - it'll get the job done.  There's my official endorsement :)

I appologize on behalf of everyone, Randy, for picking you and the keywiz apart.  It's something that has to be done with a new product with new claims.  

Congratulations, I think you've passed the test.... So far.

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2003, 12:31:38 pm »
Part #2 of the Saga :)


Quote
But yours is cheaper....  so it will do well.  Why don't you just market it as a "cheaper ipac" instead of adding these marketing buzz words.  
(snip....)
An example of this is your shazaam key... the way you pitch it in your faq it sound like you are saying it's better than the ipac's shift feature.  The fact is, except for the lack of delay (which isn't an issue as secondary keys don't need to be pressed quickly)  it's exactly the same as the shift feature.  

I'm sorry Howard, but you are dead wrong here.  The "Shazaaam!" key is not exactly the same.  Like it or not, use of the shift function on the IPAC always relegates that button to one that cannot be used for a normal control without the possibility of the shift feature kicking in.  By normal, I mean not a "start" or administrative function.  That means if you tried to make a 4 player panel and still wished to use the shift function, subtract that one from the number available for your controls.  This is absolutely NOT the case with the Shazaaam! key.

WTF are you talking about man?  I have my shift key setup as player 1 start and it works fine as both a start button and the shift key. You can also make the shift key any button and it works fine but there is a reason you don't.  Because all your shifted functions would pop up during gameplay, which is a bad thing.  Imagine making player 1, button 1 the shift/shazaam key and pull off some crazy combo on sf only to have the tab menu pop up halfway through it because one of the secondary buttons were activated.  Having the shift key any key other than a dedicated key or a seldom used key (a start button, ect) is pointless.  Again this is another one of those useless features that you keep saying is better.  

Also regarding the other post about the shifted buttons by themselves you can do this as well with the ipac.... you seit the primary button function to "" and the secondary to the function you want it to do, then you can press the "shift" key and the blank key and it works, but it does nothing when you merely press the key.  So again the shazaam key is EXACTLY like the shift key on the ipac.  I think the problem is you aren't very familair with how the ipac works nor it's seldom used features.  

Mind you there's no possible way I could be familair with the keywiz as I dont' have one but 90% of your features that are "better than the ipac" are exactly the same, useless or vaperware in their "improvments" over the ipac.  

As I said before, you are defending features that really don't do anything or are already available on the ipac.  

It's an ipac clone, there's no other way to put it.  Just like any brand of keyboard is the same to the consumer as nobody cares about the repeate rate or the encoder chip driving it.  All they care about is being able to type.  

The same goes with keyboard encoders, nobody cares how fast or how many inputs can be pressed simultaniously after a certain point because as long as it works, it's good enough.  The ipac is a proven product and it works great in both the 2 player and 4 player versions.  Nobody will need more inputs than the ipac 4 so it doesn't matter if yours has more.  The ipac 4 plays fine in 4 player setups so it doesn't matter if yours can handle more keypresses at once.  Are you seeing what I'm getting at here?  These features are nice, but nothing to brag about as they are useless.

Stating a feature is great and expected, but saying that a feature is better than it's competition because of a techinicality is wrong and misleading when the technical advantage has 0 possible applied advantage in any conceviable setup.  

If these truely are advantages then prove it.  Give one single solid example of a use for each that would apply to an arcade setup.  

I don't understand why you even responded. I said that it was a good product and it will do well as has nearly everyone on this thread.  What we have a problem with is your false claims regarding certain points.  Just because the ipac does something differently doesn't make it wrong, nor vice versa.  Except for more inputs, lack of some really nice features that the ipac has and a better price the keywiz is the same as an ipac.  


Oh something a little off topic.... the start buttons on a tmnt cp are redundant.  (Someone mentioned about having them on their tmnt cp)  They wire right back into the player 1 button 1.  Also a 2 player tmnt does have real start buttons as you get to select your character.  I am right on this point as I researched it when I noticed that pressing start in 4-player tmnt does nothing in mame.  


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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2003, 03:10:39 pm »

WTF are you talking about man?  I have my shift key setup as player 1 start and it works fine as both a start button and the shift key. You can also make the shift key any button and it works fine but there is a reason you don't.  Because all your shifted functions would pop up during gameplay, which is a bad thing.  Imagine making player 1, button 1 the shift/shazaam key and pull off some crazy combo on sf only to have the tab menu pop up halfway through it because one of the secondary buttons were activated.  Having the shift key any key other than a dedicated key or a seldom used key (a start button, ect) is pointless.  Again this is another one of those useless features that you keep saying is better.  

Howard, you just aren't getting it, mainly because you keep trying to think about it as being the same as what you are used to.  I'm running out of ways to explain it.  Anyone else care to give it a try?

Quote
Also regarding the other post about the shifted buttons by themselves you can do this as well with the ipac.... you seit the primary button function to "" and the secondary to the function you want it to do, then you can press the "shift" key and the blank key and it works, but it does nothing when you merely press the key.  So again the shazaam key is EXACTLY like the shift key on the ipac.  I think the problem is you aren't very familair with how the ipac works nor it's seldom used features.  

You are out in left field again.  :)   Let me give you an example:

Say Joe wants to have 4 start buttons (or whatever) on his CP, but he doesn't have the inputs, because he used them all up with 4 sticks with 4 buttons each.  Sure, he could just put the Shazaaam key in the center of the panel and use the alternates for any of the buttons he has.  But Joe doesn't want to do it that way. Joe wants 4 MORE BUTTONS and he wants them to trigger the alternate keys for the buttons he already has without pressing two buttons at the same time.

With the KeyWiz and 4 special buttons, Joe can get his wish.

Now someone (not named Joe) asked about doing this with the IPAC recently in the forums.  And was told that it would not work.  But if you say it can, then you should let Andy know, because he is the one that answered the question :)

So, how is this "useless feature" "the same" again?

Quote
Mind you there's no possible way I could be familair with the keywiz as I dont' have one but 90% of your features that are "better than the ipac" are exactly the same, useless or vaperware in their "improvments" over the ipac.  

As I said before, you are defending features that really don't do anything or are already available on the ipac.  

As you said in the paragraph above, "you don't have one".  You should really stop criticizing things you do not understand.  And it's not like no-one has tried to explain it to you.

Quote
It's an ipac clone, there's no other way to put it.  Just like any brand of keyboard is the same to the consumer as nobody cares about the repeate rate or the encoder chip driving it.  All they care about is being able to type.  

Tell that to the people that have been hacking keyboards for the last few years.  Just because it has keys and puts out data via the PS/2 port does not mean they are all the same.  It's not the chip, it's code inside of it.

Quote
Stating a feature is great and expected, but saying that a feature is better than it's competition because of a techinicality is wrong and misleading when the technical advantage has 0 possible applied advantage in any conceviable setup.

I just showed you one....and there are more.

You do realize that an IPAC-4 has twice the buffer and twice the speed don't you?  Would you consider that unnecessary or of no technical advantage on a unit capable of a 4 player CP?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to start comparing the KeyWiz to an IPAC-4 :), but the KeyWiz can almost get you there at half the cost.  No value in that?

Quote
If these truely are advantages then prove it.  Give one single solid example of a use for each that would apply to an arcade setup.  

I just did :)

Quote
I don't understand why you even responded. I said that it was a good product and it will do well as has nearly everyone on this thread.  What we have a problem with is your false claims regarding certain points.  Just because the ipac does something differently doesn't make it wrong, nor vice versa.  Except for more inputs, lack of some really nice features that the ipac has and a better price the keywiz is the same as an ipac.

You answered your own question :).  The claims I made are not false, and the two products are not the same.   Others see this, why don't you?

Tell me, would you sit idle if someone, who never saw or used your front end, started telling the world that your front end, while "ok", was the same as every other front end out there, and your efforts to provide certain unique features didn't matter because all front ends are just "Windows Explorer" in disquise? :D

I'd like to think that you would answer that question truthfully to yourself, but at this point I'm not so sure.

RandyT

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Re:ooooh!
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2003, 03:19:02 pm »
oooooh I forgot *I* started the thread... so therefore I can lock it.... =P

I think we need a dedicated thread just for randyt, HC, 8b, and brax =)    I just wanted to point out that there was an update on the groovygamegear/keywiz site and that they were taking orders...

Randy, how about a new official announcment that details (again) the features and benefits of key wiz in a new thread (and on the byoac main page...)  Then we can all pick that apart and discuss the issue ad nauseum...

(I actually have a question or two, but it won't stand the heat of this thread =P)

rampy