8mm and Super 8 film

[jcroach]

Hey!

Anyone out there have any expereince with transfering 8mm and Super 8 movies to MiniDV or DVD?  I'm working on digitizing my parents old home movies.  Give me a shout out and maybe we can exchange advice.

[MYX]

My brother took all our old stuff and put it to dv. He then proceded to edit it and made a video that made us all cry. It was really a good job. I will ask him about where he had it done. I know that it was not cheap. You can get it done cheaply but you may have frame synch errors.

[jcroach]

You can get it done cheaply but you may have frame synch errors.

Yeah, It's the frame rate sync problem that I'm trying to overcome right now.  I'm trying to do it all myself.  Kind of my DIY spirit (lke BYOAC!) My projector doesn't have variable speed, so it projects at 18 fps.  My MiniDV camera shoots at 30 fps, so the flicker that the differing frame rates creates is making the film almost unwatchable.

[Harry Potter]

The only ways to do it is

Cheap (Telesync): Record off the wall with a camcorder. The flicker you mentioned can be reduced if shooting with a PAL camera. (NTSC sucks eggs)

Expensive (Telecine): Professional transfer where the frame rate can be adjusted. In this case, to remove the flicker completely, they'd have to slow it down to 15fps so that each frame would be doubled up. Will of course result in slower playback. Or speed the film up to 30fps for a Benny Hill kind of home movie. 

If you can get a projector which plays back at 15fps, you're laughing.

[jcroach]

Yeah, I've been told that you can find projectors with a variable speed.  You then manually dial down the fram rate till there's no flicker.  With MiniDV and film editing software (I have Premiere Elements) it should be easy to get it back up to origional speed. 

I've seen some variable speed projectors on eBay, but I'm looking to do it cheep.  I'll keep looking for one I can borrow! 

[Ken Layton]

Look in your local telephone directory under "Video duplicating" for a local professional video transfer service.

[AtomSmasher]

Cheap (Telesync): Record off the wall with a camcorder. The flicker you mentioned can be reduced if shooting with a PAL camera. (NTSC sucks eggs)

My family did this about 10 years ago with our super 8 movies.  Turned out good enough, but was a major pain in the ass to do.  I'd definately look for a professional in your area to do it.

[jcroach]

Cheap (Telesync): Record off the wall with a camcorder. The flicker you mentioned can be reduced if shooting with a PAL camera. (NTSC sucks eggs)

My family did this about 10 years ago with our super 8 movies.  Turned out good enough, but was a major pain in the ass to do.  I'd definately look for a professional in your area to do it.

What made it a pain in the ass?  Just getting the frame rates to sync?  Did you use a variable speed projector?  Any advice you can give me based on your experiences would be greatly appreciated.

[AtomSmasher]

It was a pain in the ass because we did it in the living room for around 8 hours straight, and everyone had to be extremely quiet.  We also set up a soundtrack to be played during the filming which also had to be queued up just right.  It wasn't horrible, it was just a pain that seemed to take forever.

[MYX]

What made it a pain in the ass?  Just getting the frame rates to sync?  Did you use a variable speed projector?  Any advice you can give me based on your experiences would be greatly appreciated.

It is not just a matter of getting it to run at the same speed. video (NTSC) is 29.97 fps. Even if you got the projector to run at the same speed, the video may capture in between 2 movie frames causing a flicker. Shooting a screen will still get you some flicker as the frames are not in synch. The best solution (yet most dificult) is to get a frame to frame transfer (which will make your movie run far too fast) and import it into after effects and time it out. The new version of AE actually will interpolate between frames frames to smooth out motion. If you can get the transfer done, you can download a free trial of AE from Adobe. I think that it will work for a month. (or you culd just buy it because it is a mighty cool piece of software)

[ChadTower]

Or, like most regular people, you could develop your torrent-fu.

[jcroach]

Or, like most regular people, you could develop your torrent-fu.

Huhhh? 

[ChadTower]

The first lesson in developing strong torrent-fu:   get me a beer.

[quarterback]

Expensive (Telecine): Professional transfer where the frame rate can be adjusted. In this case, to remove the flicker completely, they'd have to slow it down to 15fps so that each frame would be doubled up. Will of course result in slower playback. Or speed the film up to 30fps

Not true.  When professional 24fps film is transferred to video, they don't change the speed to 30fps to make the transfer to video, they do a 3-2 pulldown which effectively converts 24 frames/sec to 30 frames/sec

While I've never been to a 18fps telecine session, I'm sure that you can have that transferred to video where the playback will be at the correct speed and without additional flicker.

Unsupervised telecine rates will run you $150-$450/hr plus prep, leader and tape stock.   If you're in L.A. you'll have a number of options, if you're in BFE, you'll have none.  If you're someplace between LA and BFE, you may have 1 to 5 professional places in your state, but the quality will be much better than anyplace videotaping it off of a wall/screen/rear-projected/whatever.   Whether or not any of these places are set up for 8mm/super-8 is debateable.  NY or LA are probably your best options, or possibly Seattle.

EDIT:  Try this place for a real, honest to goodness telecine: http://www.posthouse.com/SUPER8.html

[HaRuMaN]

Or, like most regular people, you could develop your torrent-fu.

I am a torrent-fu master.   

[jcroach]

If you're in L.A. you'll have a number of options, if you're in BFE, you'll have none.  If you're someplace between LA and BFE, you may have 1 to 5 professional places in your state, but the quality will be much better than anyplace videotaping it off of a wall/screen/rear-projected/whatever. 

Thanks for the advice.  I'm still trying to figure out where I am.  I'm in central Indiana, so my guess is that I'm somewhere just north of BFE...............

[quarterback]

If you're in L.A. you'll have a number of options, if you're in BFE, you'll have none.  If you're someplace between LA and BFE, you may have 1 to 5 professional places in your state, but the quality will be much better than anyplace videotaping it off of a wall/screen/rear-projected/whatever. 

Thanks for the advice.  I'm still trying to figure out where I am.  I'm in central Indiana, so my guess is that I'm somewhere just north of BFE...............

    But just somewhat south of Chicago.

Again, this is the most expensive way to go, but the quality will be the best.   If you want to go that direction, Google for "Rank" and "super 8" and "telecine", or PM me and I'll see if I can round up some other links in your area.

Otherwise, Ken is right, there will be local "professional" places who'll do the transfer either with a nice video camera and a screen, or some kind of film-chain.  Either will work, but at a lower quality than a real telecine on a Rank Cintel system.  It all depends on what you want out of it.

I found an article last night comparing the transfer house I suggested with other kinds of transfers.  It might be of interest to you:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1620686,00.asp

Click on the pics in the article for more info

[quarterback]

Hey there, here's another link I just dug up that you might find of interest

Subject: Transferring Super8 film to video

[Harry Potter]

While I've never been to a 18fps telecine session, I'm sure that you can have that transferred to video where the playback will be at the correct speed and without additional flicker.

I've been to a professional telecine session and I can assure you that transferring 8mm film to look decent requires mid to high-end equipment. I talked to them when I was getting 16mm film transferred to video and they reckon the best way to do it with a video camera is to use one which has progressive recording capabilities (480p, 576p or 720p). These are pricey however but can be rented cheap.

Also 3:2 pulldown-like methods won't work with this because of the film frame to interlaced frame ratios. Unless he slowed the footage down to 15fps, he won't eliminate the flicker.

And this is why NTSC sucks eggs. 

[MYX]

And this is why NTSC sucks eggs. 

Listen PAL, (get it get it huh PAL huh get it...)
alright it was dumb. 

Yeah, NTSC does make for some interesting issues. Thank you 60 hz power too. But, it is what we have, so, were stuck with it. The digital age of tv will hopefully fix this, but well have to wait and see.

And chad, who needs Torrend FU when we got atom bombs?

[quarterback]

While I've never been to a 18fps telecine session, I'm sure that you can have that transferred to video where the playback will be at the correct speed and without additional flicker.

I've been to a professional telecine session and I can assure you that transferring 8mm film to look decent requires mid to high-end equipment.

Using high end equipment is exactly what I recommended.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as the "professional telecine session" that you attended, but ALL real telecine sessions DO have high-end equipment.  If you find a place with anything that you'd consider low-end equipment, you're not at a professional telecine session.

I talked to them when I was getting 16mm film transferred to video and they reckon the best way to do it with a video camera is to use one which has progressive recording capabilities (480p, 576p or 720p). These are pricey however but can be rented cheap.

I can assure you that "pricey video cameras" have nothing to do with Telecine at all.   Get a real telecine on a Rank and it'll look fine.  Anything that involves video cameras is NOT a professional telecine session, no matter what you've been told.  And if your "professional telecine session" included advice about using video cameras, you were at the wrong place.

Also 3:2 pulldown-like methods won't work with this because of the film frame to interlaced frame ratios.

First off, I didn't suggest he use 3:2 pulldown to transfer his 18fps film to tape.  You made an erroneous comment about having to slow it down to 15 to successfully transfer the film to tape "so each frame can be doubled up"  You seem to believe that the frame rate of the film must match the video frame rate or be 1/2 of the video frame rate so it "can be doubled up".  You are wrong and, as a very basic, done-every-day, seen-on-tv-every-night example of how this belief is incorrect, I referred to transferring 24fps film to 30fps video using 3:2 pulldown.

If you understand what 3:2 pulldown is, then you would clearly know that the film frame rate does NOT have to be 1/2 the video frame rate and you would not say something like "they'd have to slow it down to 15fps so that each frame would be doubled up".

Secondly, of COURSE a "3:2 pulldown like method" could work in the exact same way that a 3:2 pulldown works for 24fps transfers.  3:2 distributes every 4 film frames across 5 video frames.  For 18fps, it would just have to distribute 3 film frames across those 5 video frames.

Unless he slowed the footage down to 15fps, he won't eliminate the flicker.

You are wrong wrong wrong wrong.  Go to a professional post house, as I suggested, and you can have 18fps transferred without any flicker at all and no speed problems.

Hell, if you wanted to, you could shoot something at 64fps and transfer it at 12fps onto an NTSC 30fps video tape.  People do stuff like that all the time.  You still wouldn't have any flicker introduced because of the frame rate, nor are you required to slow-down or speed-up anything that you didn't want to.

[Harry Potter]

I can assure you that "pricey video cameras" have nothing to do with Telecine at all.   Get a real telecine on a Rank and it'll look fine.  Anything that involves video cameras is NOT a professional telecine session, no matter what you've been told.  And if your "professional telecine session" included advice about using video cameras, you were at the wrong place.

If you read my original message, I said the person in the telecine session told me that to do the trasfer WITH A VIDEOCAMERA (ie on the cheap), it was best to use one which doesn't have interlacing. I wasn't implying it was professional.

First off, I didn't suggest he use 3:2 pulldown to transfer his 18fps film to tape.  You made an erroneous comment about having to slow it down to 15 to successfully transfer the film to tape "so each frame can be doubled up"  You seem to believe that the frame rate of the film must match the video frame rate or be 1/2 of the video frame rate so it "can be doubled up".  You are wrong and, as a very basic, done-every-day, seen-on-tv-every-night example of how this belief is incorrect, I referred to transferring 24fps film to 30fps video using 3:2 pulldown.

Once again, read my quotes. I said 3:2 pulldown LIKE methods.

If you understand what 3:2 pulldown is, then you would clearly know that the film frame rate does NOT have to be 1/2 the video frame rate and you would not say something like "they'd have to slow it down to 15fps so that each frame would be doubled up".

I do understand what it is since I've had to deal with the damn thing on a number of occasions. The reason I was suggesting he slow it down to 15fps is so that when he records at 30fps (Ie, NTSC), the frames would be doubled up and there'd be less chance of obvious interlacing. There's still a matter fo timing (synchronising the playback and recording) but that would just be trial and error.

Secondly, of COURSE a "3:2 pulldown like method" could work in the exact same way that a 3:2 pulldown works for 24fps transfers.  3:2 distributes every 4 film frames across 5 video frames.  For 18fps, it would just have to distribute 3 film frames across those 5 video frames.

Since equipment to do that would not be common (due to 8mm film being pretty much dead) so the only way to utilise this would be to have the footage digitised ($$$$) and do the pulldown on a PC. More trouble than it seems.

Anyways, I recokon he should just throw the image on a wall and record it instead of trying to do fancy things with it. It is 8mm and it's not gonna improve the quality that much.

[Harry Potter]

I'm not sure what you're referring to as the "professional telecine session" that you attended, but ALL real telecine sessions DO have high-end equipment.  If you find a place with anything that you'd consider low-end equipment, you're not at a professional telecine session.

Bingo. There are places who do cheapo telecine and that i do not consider professional. The place I went to deal with the motion picture industry, hence they have pro equipment which is why I called it a "professional telecine session".

[MYX]

Anyways, I recokon he should just throw the image on a wall and record it instead of trying to do fancy things with it. It is 8mm and it's not gonna improve the quality that much.

Could bump it to 4K and remaster like Lucas did with Star Wars 4,5, &6. it should only cost you a mere million (or two).

[Harry Potter]

Anyways, I recokon he should just throw the image on a wall and record it instead of trying to do fancy things with it. It is 8mm and it's not gonna improve the quality that much.

Could bump it to 4K and remaster like Lucas did with Star Wars 4,5, &6. it should only cost you a mere million (or two).

Just hire better script writers than he did.

[MYX]

Just hire better script writers than he did.

Mmmmmm. Indeed. But, you do gotta bite your toung and swallow and try not to laugh when vader finds out that padame is dead. He clutches his fists and yells... Noooooooooooooo! It was so campy. I started laughing loudly at this "dramatic" moment. I sorta pissed off the folks in front of me.

[Harry Potter]

Just hire better script writers than he did.

Mmmmmm. Indeed. But, you do gotta bite your toung and swallow and try not to laugh when vader finds out that padame is dead. He clutches his fists and yells... Noooooooooooooo! It was so campy. I started laughing loudly at this "dramatic" moment. I sorta pissed off the folks in front of me.

yeah. When I went to see it in Prague for the premiere, pretty much the whole cinema pissed itself laughing on that bit. As we all walked out of the cinema past the people queuing up for the next seesion, everyone was yelling 'Nooooooooooooooooooooooo'. The people were looking at us as if we were nuts (They were right) 

[MYX]

Speakin about making comments while walking out of the movie theater, when we saw the last Harry Potter (on daly 3 of it being open), as we were walking out of the theater I started saying "How can they kill off Hermoine, She is like a main character and it is not even in the book". there were several concerned faces on the folks waiting to go in.