Hope this isn't a taboo topic

[MikeQ]

How is it that certain websites are able to post 30,000 mame roms and other emulator roms for public download without fear of being shutdown.   They don't even require an account or anything?

Is it simply because these particular roms aren't owned by companies who care to enforce their copyright?


One of the sites also has this statement:  What are protected roms?


In an effort to help support the gaming industry, including all the hard working individuals who slave day and night to provide you with some decent entertainment, will never make protected games available for download. We feel that by doing this, the quality of games will be improved because more money will be put into the creation of new games. While other rom sites may not do the same, we suggest you stay away from them to help keep the gaming industry prosperous. If you enjoy a game, buy it, we do! Below is the list of roms protected xxxxx
Aliens vs. Predator
Barbarian
Chessmaster
Dance Dance Revolution
Dig Dug
Donkey Kong
Doom
Frogger
Grand Theft Auto
Kirby
Lego Island
Lego Racers
Mario
Matt Hoffman's Pro BMX
Metal Gear Solid
Monsters, Inc. (Game)
NASCAR
Pac Man
Pokemon (game)
Rayman
Spider-Man (Game)
Top Gun (Game)
Wolfenstein
Yu-Gi-Oh
Zelda

I hope this also clears up a few things for those who were wondering why we have 30,000 ROMs and Mario rom downloads are no where to be found.

[mccoy178]

knock, knock, knockin' on posthell's door.

[MikeQ]

Well, I'm not giving out the sites name or anything.  A simple search of mame roms will find this site withing the first two hits.  I'm curious how something this easy to find and high profile can do this?

[ahofle]

Undoubtedly an offshore site.  It's not as easy to initiate legal action on people there or make them shut down their site.

[Tiger-Heli]

Yes - this will probably go to post hell very soon.

Stuff I can suppose - if the site is hosted in angola, or taiwan, or malaysia - or something, there is not much the IDSA can do about copyright infringement.  If it is not - they can send a C&D letter to the hosting provider, and then the content just gets posted to another site on another domain a few days later (possibly with the same base site re-directing to it).

Just like all the other warez, crackz, serialz on the WWW.

[Farmboy90]

Well, I'm not giving out the sites name or anything.  A simple search of mame roms will find this site withing the first two hits.  I'm curious how something this easy to find and high profile can do this?

I am not sure what the point is, but you can google for any other number of "questionable" things and get hits as easily too (satellite test cards, escorts in your area, etc).  This rom site isn't selling them.  I don't see anything wrong with what they are doing.  It is borderline, I know, but I wouldn't call it illegal.  And maybe in the country where these sites are located it isn't an issue.

Either way, everyone knows about them, so I don't think there is much to discuss about it.

[Tiger-Heli]

Not sure if we are allowed to discuss this, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if most ROM sites disappeared as much b/c they require a tremendous amount of bandwidth, rather than b/c of external pressure/legal issues.

[MikeQ]

Something interesting on their site, they state that the "Protected" roms are protected by the IDSA and that they will never post these roms.

Why exactly is discussing a ROM site like this a bad thing.  It isn't like I'm soliciting for sites.  If anything, I'm trying to understand the legalities so I can try to adhere to them.

They are located in Marietta Georgia.

The hosting company is in Washington State

[saint]

Discussing the existance, legality, and morality of ROM sites is not a violation of the rules of this board - no links or hints to the ROMs though please.

Oh - and they are illegal flat out, period and end of report. There are legal ROM sources out there, however limited they are in scope.

--- saint

[MikeQ]

Will do, no links/hints.

So does this mean that the arcade companies just don't enforce the copyrights.  Are copyrights like trademarks where if you don't enforce violations, then you will lose them?


Thanks Saint.

[Tiger-Heli]

Something interesting on their site, they state that the "Protected" roms are protected by the IDSA and that they will never post these roms.

I've seen similar things with old abandonware games.  Lots of sites won't host Microprose games for the same reason, but other sites still do.

Why exactly is discussing a ROM site like this a bad thing.  It isn't like I'm soliciting for sites.  If anything, I'm trying to understand the legalities so I can try to adhere to them.

Rom begging goes against the board rules, as does generally making a public post about where to find them.  The legalities of ownership of them has been discussed on the board ad infinitum, you might do a search on "copyright", "legality", etc.

They are located in Marietta Georgia.

Fascinating . . .

[Tiger-Heli]

So does this mean that the arcade companies just don't enforce the copyrights.

Most don't.  Namco and Nintendo definitely try to.  Many older companies like say Gottlieb and to some extent Atari Arcade, it would be hard to know who owns the company anymore, much less the copyright on the arcade roms. . .

Are copyrights like trademarks where if you don't enforce violations, then you will lose them?

I don't believe so, I think they are permanent, but IANAL.  However, if I copy and modify someone else's copyrighted work, then the original (and my work) retain the copyrights of the original author, plus my modifications (and therefore the entire work) also would be copyrightable by myself, so it becomes a very sticky issue to sort out.

[mccoy178]

What's the linky? J/K

knock, knock, knockin' on okay for this forums door.........

Sung in my best GNR voice.

[Farmboy90]

What's the linky? J/K

knock, knock, knockin' on okay for this forums door.........

Sung in my best GNR voice.

Hummm GNR?  So not Dylan's version??

[mccoy178]

I was just listening to the Use Your Illusions disc last night.  It's stuck in my head.

[MikeQ]

Rom begging goes against the board rules, as does generally making a public post about where to find them.  The legalities of ownership of them has been discussed on the board ad infinitum, you might do a search on "copyright", "legality", etc.

Ya, did this.  You can read stuff on a forum all day and then find out it is all wrong.  I believed I had an understanding of the ROM issue but then you see a very high visibility website (and very professional) site providing ROMs and it makes you question what you think you know.

In general, I tend to disregard what I read on Forums because it usually is just information that is being repeated by people who have heard something and are repeating it with little knowledge of what they are talking about and when question for proof they usually can't produce it.  This forum doesn't quite fit that stereotype though.  People here seem a little better....and the Delorean forum is pretty good too.   Hmmm, ma bye I don't know what I'm talking about.

[ahofle]

In general, I tend to disregard what I read on Forums because it usually is just information that is being repeated by people who have heard something and are repeating it with little knowledge of what they are talking about and when question for proof they usually can't produce it. 

How is it that certain websites are able to post 30,000 mame roms and other emulator roms for public download without fear of being shutdown.   They don't even require an account or anything?

Is it simply because these particular roms aren't owned by companies who care to enforce their copyright?

I gotta wonder, why ask these questions on a forum if you tend to disregard what you read on Forums?   

[MikeQ]

Why exactly is discussing a ROM site like this a bad thing.  It isn't like I'm soliciting for sites.  If anything, I'm trying to understand the legalities so I can try to adhere to them.

Rom begging goes against the board rules, as does generally making a public post about where to find them.  The legalities of ownership of them has been discussed on the board ad infinitum, you might do a search on "copyright", "legality", etc.

Well, I wasn't begging or saying where to find them.  I didn't say what search engine I used to find the site.  I went out of my way not to say where to find them.

The only reason I mentioned that they could be found with a search engine is to exhibit how high profile this site was.  It wasn't a site that I had to work very hard to find.  I would think if there were companies that were interested in stopping this, that this site woud be the first to go.

[MikeQ]

In general, I tend to disregard what I read on Forums because it usually is just information that is being repeated by people who have heard something and are repeating it with little knowledge of what they are talking about and when question for proof they usually can't produce it. 

How is it that certain websites are able to post 30,000 mame roms and other emulator roms for public download without fear of being shutdown.   They don't even require an account or anything?

Is it simply because these particular roms aren't owned by companies who care to enforce their copyright?

I gotta wonder, why ask these questions on a forum if you tend to disregard what you read on Forums?   

Did you not read the part about thinking this forum wasn't the norm?

Also, when asking a legal type question like this, searching the forum will likely get you outdated information.  Especially if the general attitude  is "search for the information"  That guarantees the topic will only get discussed once and if the information is wrong, everyone will always be pointed to wrong information.

This just happened on another thread a couple days ago.  People were telling me not to use Microsoft compiler projects for my build of Mame because the compilers are horrifically expensive.  Guess what Starting with Visual Studio 2005......compilers are free.

[markrvp]

The only reason I mentioned that they could be found with a search engine is to exhibit how high profile this site was.  It wasn't a site that I had to work very hard to find.  I would think if there were companies that were interested in stopping this, that this site woud be the first to go.

That's why there is a rule here that you don't talk about where to get roms, to protect this site from prosecution.  It is absolutely 100% legal to talk about how to build arcade controls, though, so that's what we talk about.

Thanks for working on all the LED stuff.  That's going to be a valuable contribution.

[MikeQ]

The only reason I mentioned that they could be found with a search engine is to exhibit how high profile this site was.  It wasn't a site that I had to work very hard to find.  I would think if there were companies that were interested in stopping this, that this site woud be the first to go.

That's why there is a rule here that you don't talk about where to get roms, to protect this site from prosecution.  It is absolutely 100% legal to talk about how to build arcade controls, though, so that's what we talk about.

Thanks for working on all the LED stuff.  That's going to be a valuable contribution.

Jeepers,

If no one is prosecuting the ROM sites, why in the world would they prosecute this site?

And again, I never mentioned where to get ROMS.

Your welcome.  Someday i'll get it posted somewhere.

[MikeQ]

Something funny the other night.  A very famous, very reputable film/image related Museum in New York had a tribute to Ron Howard on TV.  They had a little segment on the video industry and its contribution to moving images.  They mentioned that you could go to the Museum website and see more about video game history.  My wife and I were watching in bed, so she grabs the laptop and goes to the website.  They have history on the first video games, etc.  Has a page on Asteroids.  She goes to the page and at the bottom in big words it says "Download The ROM".  She clicks on it and it has a whole article about MAME and what ROMS are and actually lets you download the ROM.

Seems like nobody is following the rules.

[ften]

Something interesting on their site, they state that the "Protected" roms are protected by the IDSA and that they will never post these roms.

Why exactly is discussing a ROM site like this a bad thing.  It isn't like I'm soliciting for sites.  If anything, I'm trying to understand the legalities so I can try to adhere to them.

They are located in Marietta Georgia.

The hosting company is in Washington State

Thats like up the road from me, Marietta. Intresting.

-FTen

[quarterback]

That is odd.  The museum's website has a number of ROMs on the site (not just asteroid), links to MAME, info about Nicola etc...

Something funny the other night.  A very famous, very reputable film/image related Museum in New York had a tribute to Ron Howard on TV.  They had a little segment on the video industry and its contribution to moving images.  They mentioned that you could go to the Museum website and see more about video game history.  My wife and I were watching in bed, so she grabs the laptop and goes to the website.  They have history on the first video games, etc.  Has a page on Asteroids.  She goes to the page and at the bottom in big words it says "Download The ROM".  She clicks on it and it has a whole article about MAME and what ROMS are and actually lets you download the ROM.

Seems like nobody is following the rules.

[MikeQ]

The information being in a museum is right up the MAMEDEVs alley and is appropriate place for this kind of history but to make the stuff available is really strange. 

[RayB]

Well, I'm not giving out the sites name or anything.

Uh, yes you did. Read your first post. Then I suggest you Edit it.

Regarding why, my guess is this: They received Cease & Desist orders for a bunch of specific games. So they removed them. Everything else is still up because no lawyers have come a'knockin.

Anyways, don't ruin it for us. Remove their name from your post!
 

[RayB]

Well, I wasn't begging or saying where to find them.  I didn't say what search engine I used to find the site.  I went out of my way not to say where to find them.

... in fact you included their name TWICE.

[danny_galaga]

yeah, it isnt hard to see the sites name in the quote you gave! edit! edit!

[Lilwolf]

Basically if nobody complains their ok.  Heck some of the major sites (daves classics and retrogames) used to host almost all the roms available.

But once retrogaming became popular, and those retro cd's started coming out.... the companies started complaining, as they should. 

Why they haven't decided to start selling the original roms themselfs for home use (and for business use for more) is really a good question though.  Many here do as much as they can to be legal.

Of course, I believe I have supported multiple employees of Capcom's children through college with all my SF2 and beyond money. 

[Tiger-Heli]

Another thing to keep in mind is that - even legally - this is all opinion and conjecture.

Modern software comes with a license agreement and is generally (but not universally) accepted that you can make a single copy of the software for archival purposes.

Arcade games were originally sold as a complete item, and you owned the cabinet, the electronics, and the manual, if it included one.  There was no mention of licensing, you owned the game.  There was also no mention of whether you could or could not dump the ROMS and then whether you could or could not distribute them after you dumped them.  (Primarily because, at the time, the machines to dump them cost many times more than the games themselves, so nobody would seriously consider this).

Basically - ownership and distribution of any roms except the three that are released as public domain on MAME.net (Robby-Roto and a couple of others), is a legal gray area (including IMHO StarRoms and the Capcom Roms that ship with the HotRod) and will remain so until the issue is challenged in court and decided by a judge (and even then there is a possibility of the decision being overturned on appeal).

However, everyone (well, most everyone) here, would prefer for it to remain a gray issue so we can deny that we are knowingly breaking any laws, so there is a general policy of "Don't ask, Don't tell", NTTIAWWT. 

[MikeQ]

Well, I wasn't begging or saying where to find them.  I didn't say what search engine I used to find the site.  I went out of my way not to say where to find them.

... in fact you included their name TWICE.

Well, I never mentioned the name of the site, just the name of the company.  Typing in XXX XXXXX wouldn't get you anywhere.   

Ya, my bad.  I didn't read the part I pasted thouroughly.

[MikeQ]

Another thing to keep in mind is that - even legally - this is all opinion and conjecture.

Modern software comes with a license agreement and is generally (but not universally) accepted that you can make a single copy of the software for archival purposes.

Arcade games were originally sold as a complete item, and you owned the cabinet, the electronics, and the manual, if it included one.  There was no mention of licensing, you owned the game.  There was also no mention of whether you could or could not dump the ROMS and then whether you could or could not distribute them after you dumped them.  (Primarily because, at the time, the machines to dump them cost many times more than the games themselves, so nobody would seriously consider this).

Basically - ownership and distribution of any roms except the three that are released as public domain on MAME.net (Robby-Roto and a couple of others), is a legal gray area (including IMHO StarRoms and the Capcom Roms that ship with the HotRod) and will remain so until the issue is challenged in court and decided by a judge (and even then there is a possibility of the decision being overturned on appeal).

However, everyone (well, most everyone) here, would prefer for it to remain a gray issue so we can deny that we are knowingly breaking any laws, so there is a general policy of "Don't ask, Don't tell", NTTIAWWT. 

Hmmm, when I was in the Army, we had a "Don't ask, Don't Tell" policy.   I don't recall it being about ROMS though. 

[RayB]

Arcade games were originally sold as a complete item, and you owned the cabinet, the electronics, and the manual, if it included one.  There was no mention of licensing, you owned the game.  There was also no mention of whether you could or could not dump the ROMS and then whether you could or could not distribute them after you dumped them.  (Primarily because, at the time, the machines to dump them cost many times more than the games themselves, so nobody would seriously consider this).

It was "implied" that you could dump ROMs if you owned the machine. A ROM reader/writer was/is standard equipment for an operator. If an EPROM on a board goes bad, they need to fix that machine as fast as possible. So that meant burning a new EPROM with a copy of the old one. And often, companies would issue upgrades/revisions.

But no, that implied understanding didn't include distribution of the data. As you said, no one would even want to do that considering what they paid for those machines.

[More Cowbell]

When a company goes under or is absorbed and makes no attempt to control the rights of the games they created, do the games not become public domain at some point? I mean, it would be great if we could get these roms legally by paying a (small) fee, but many of the companies don't exist or have the ability to make a decision to go this route.

[MikeQ]

When a company goes under or is absorbed and makes no attempt to control the rights of the games they created, do the games not become public domain at some point? I mean, it would be great if we could get these roms legally by paying a (small) fee, but many of the companies don't exist or have the ability to make a decision to go this route.

It would be interesting to see how few of the arcade companies (or current owners of their assest) even have in their possession the source code for these ROMS.   

[RayB]

When a company goes under or is absorbed and makes no attempt to control the rights of the games they created, do the games not become public domain at some point? I mean, it would be great if we could get these roms legally by paying a (small) fee, but many of the companies don't exist or have the ability to make a decision to go this route.

It very very VERY rare that a company closes and its assets don't get bought or transferred to some party. Yeah, the owner might just sit on what they have (or not even really know what IP they own) but that doesn't make it public domain.

[MikeQ]

I realize that doesn't make it public domain.  I just think it would be ironic if the companies who have the legal ownership of these ROMs don't actually physically retain them.

[Tiger-Heli]

When a company goes under or is absorbed and makes no attempt to control the rights of the games they created, do the games not become public domain at some point? I mean, it would be great if we could get these roms legally by paying a (small) fee, but many of the companies don't exist or have the ability to make a decision to go this route.

It very very VERY rare that a company closes and its assets don't get bought or transferred to some party. Yeah, the owner might just sit on what they have (or not even really know what IP they own) but that doesn't make it public domain.

And I believe (but IANAL) that both companies then own the copyrights.

For example - I develop a ROM and form Company A to market it.  I own copyrights on the ROM b/c I developed it.  Times turn bad and I sell my company and the rights to use my ROM to Company B.  This prevents me from suing Company B to prevent them from using my ROM.  However, I think I still retain the original rights, and either I or Company B could prevent Company C from developing a similar game.  I am not sure if I could form Company D and use the ROM code, or whether I could then be sued by Company B.

Now figure that the arcade companies has often been sold five or six times . . .

[Wetworks]

how Interesting

"The family tree of ROMS"


 

[MikeQ]

And I believe (but IANAL) that both companies then own the copyrights.

For example - I develop a ROM and form Company A to market it.  I own copyrights on the ROM b/c I developed it.  Times turn bad and I sell my company and the rights to use my ROM to Company B.  This prevents me from suing Company B to prevent them from using my ROM.  However, I think I still retain the original rights, and either I or Company B could prevent Company C from developing a similar game.  I am not sure if I could form Company D and use the ROM code, or whether I could then be sued by Company B.

Now figure that the arcade companies has often been sold five or six times . . .

If Company A goes out of business and sells all assets to Company B, Company A would no longer exist.  I think the copyright would have been the property of Company A, not the guy who started Company A.  I'm sure that one could write a contract though that would entitle "guy A" to use the copyrighted material but it would probably be more of a license than an ownership.

I know patents that are filed by individuals who work at a company behave this way.  I've filed patents through my company.  When the patent is awarded, I'm listed as the inventor but my company owns the patent and I have no claim or right to use it.  I could however license it from my company.