Works great! was -> Another woodworker question - threaded insert advice?

[quarterback]

Hey all,

I've been contemplating the use of threaded inserts to put together a cab that could be completely broken down without any bolts or anything sticking out of it.   For a while I had thought about a cam-lock system, but it seems like it could be difficult to get everything lined up 100%, and even if you did, you'd have those 'bolts' sticking up out of the panels when you took it apart, and those are just waiting to get snapped off.

So, somebody mentions threaded inserts and now I'm thinking that's a better idea.  You could use simple L-brackets in all of the corners and bolt everything together (I'm picturing two L-brackets per corner of each panel, so 8 L-brackets per square piece)

Question1:  steel versus brass?   The brass seem to be a little cheaper and maybe even more readily available.  Any preference for MDF?  What about for plywood?

Question2:  Do you really need a jig or a special tool to install threaded inserts?  There are some claims that it's difficult to get them to go in straight.  Any real life experience on this?   Rockler sells a special tool to install them and this page suggests a home made jig.

Question3: How small is too small?  I look at 6-32 and they look tiny to me.  But because of the way everything would be attached (each corner having 3 L-bracket with no "straight out" pulling action) I feel like it'd be overkill to go with 12-24 or 1/4-20.   Would 10-32 work?

Any other thoughts on this?

[DrewKaree]

Question1:  steel versus brass?   The brass seem to be a little cheaper and maybe even more readily available.  Any preference for MDF?  What about for plywood?

The brass would be a softer material, but that probably won't come into play.  I'd still stick with steel though.  I'd hate to try 'em in MDF, but I've used 'em in plywood now, and they seem reasonably sturdy.  I'd be hesitant to use 'em for this application though.  They seem like they're intended for smaller parts, not something like this. 

Question2:  Do you really need a jig or a special tool to install threaded inserts?  There are some claims that it's difficult to get them to go in straight.  Any real life experience on this?   Rockler sells a special tool to install them and this page suggests a home made jig.

I used my drill press.  I'd say if you don't have a drill press, get the thing from Rockler to install 'em.  I tried the first one by hand just to see, and you CAN "eyeball" 'em, but if you don't have it in straight, nothing else will line up right either, so putting them in perfectly straight is of the utmost importance.  With a drill press, it's as easy as drilling a hole once you have it set up.

Question3: How small is too small?  I look at 6-32 and they look tiny to me.  But because of the way everything would be attached (each corner having 3 L-bracket with no "straight out" pulling action) I feel like it'd be overkill to go with 12-24 or 1/4-20.   Would 10-32 work?

Not sure on this.  I'd recommend picking up one of each size and testing it out if you wanna get an idea for yourself.  You may think they're just fine for what you're wanting to use 'em for, but I'm thinking you might think they're a little "underpowered" too.  I dunno, just my opinion

[KrawDaddy]

Hey

I used them in my Goldmine project.

[quarterback]

I'd hate to try 'em in MDF, but I've used 'em in plywood now, and they seem reasonably sturdy.

I've found some references to them being used in MDF, but yeah, I'm more inclined to try them in something sturdier.

I'd be hesitant to use 'em for this application though. They seem like they're intended for smaller parts, not something like this.

Yeah, but the way I'm picturing it, I feel like they should work.... hmmm...

I'd say if you don't have a drill press, get the thing from Rockler to install 'em. I tried the first one by hand just to see, and you CAN "eyeball" 'em, but if you don't have it in straight, nothing else will line up right either, so putting them in perfectly straight is of the utmost importance. With a drill press, it's as easy as drilling a hole once you have it set up.

Good to know.  Since I'd be using them to attach brackets (and not using them to directly attach two panels of wood to each other) I feel like I wouldn't be completely screwed if I was a little "off", but I'd rather get the right tool for the job instead of struggling with it.

I keep thinking about buying one of those $39.99 drill presses that I see at Harbor Freight.  Maybe I'll do that since I've been wanting one for a while anyway, just for occasional work where a perpendicular hole is key.

I used them in my Goldmine project.  My opinion - not the solution - use a good quality t-nut for assembling your sides.  Simple and effective.

But my goal would be to not have anything (bolt heads, etc) showing on the outside and if I put in T-nuts the correct way (as opposed to the way I used them when I first tried them) then the bold goes all the way through the wood.

Were the inserts just too much of a PITA?  Or did they not work right?   I'll go find your project thread and see if there's any more info in there.

Thanks y'all

[mccoy178]

That's it.

[nostrebor]

go to this link for a really simple threaded insert, errr... inserting jig

http://www.woodsmith.com/main/pdf/144-threaded-insert-jig-and-raised-panels.pdf

As far as using them to assemble arcade cabinets... I would not use them in MDF for that application. If you do, use plenty.

[quarterback]

go to this link for a really simple threaded insert, errr... inserting jig

http://www.woodsmith.com/main/pdf/144-threaded-insert-jig-and-raised-panels.pdf

As far as using them to assemble arcade cabinets... I would not use them in MDF for that application. If you do, use plenty.

Yeah, I saw that jig, although when I look at it I feel like building that jig would be more difficult for me than actually putting a threaded insert by hand

I thought this was interesting:  These threaded inserts usually have a 'slot' on the top which I always understood was for a flathead screwdriver.  But this page suggests you use that slot for other purposes based on the kind of wood you're using.

[nostrebor]

If you use a hardwood block, skip the sleeve and the spring, it is as simple to make as drilling one hole and cutting a notch in the wood block. I have one I made with scrap wood and a bolt that was kicking around. Took about 2 minutes, most of which was spent looking for a bolt

With as many inserts as you re talking about installing, it will be worth the bit of time. This is especially true for something as big a sa cabinet, where the drill press trick can be difficult because of the size of the pieces that you are putting inserts in.

[RetroACTIVE]

Threaded inserts are definitely of the light-duty use category.  Brass is very soft and I cracked a couple putting them into my cabinet... I used them to hold my fan and fan filter.

I did the ol' cam lock thing... wasn't as difficult as you might think... but still maybe not worth the effort.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=43594.0

[whammoed]

Get a portable drill press.

[quarterback]

Success!   I think the threaded insert is the perfect answer to building break-down cabs... at least of the cocktail variety.

I just got a cocktail kit and ordered a bunch of threaded inserts from Woodcraft.com in anticipation of seeing what I could do with them.

I put the cab together using about half of the wooden dowels.  I laid out my L-brackets, marked the hole-centers, took the cab back apart, used the proper sized drill bit, drilled the holes, used my drill with a flathead screwdriver bit and drilled in the inserts.   

No drill press, no jig, no fancy tools needed.  Just a drill and some bits.  I can't say they were all perfectly 100% straight, but there's only one that doesn't look perfectly straight.  It was the last one I did (at ~3am) and it went into the hole at a angle.   My fault for being sloppy and careless. 

I put the rest of the dowels in, put the cab back together and started threading in all my bolts.  Brilliant!  Feeling the metal bolt against the metal threads of the inserts is awesome and I have no concerns (yet, at least) that this is going to break apart on me.  It seems solid as a rock.  And now, I can take the whole thing down whenever I want.  I love it.  Definitely worth the ~$20 I spent for the hardware to do it.

Some pics:

[rdagger]

Did you drill through the wood or just deep enough to install the insert?   What are the dimensions of the inserts?

[quarterback]

Did you drill through the wood or just deep enough to install the insert?   What are the dimensions of the inserts?

Just deep enough for the inserts.  The reason I didn't go the T-nut direction is because I didn't want any hardware showing on the outside of the cab.   

The inserts I got are internally threaded for 10-24 and are 1/2" long.  I used a 3/8" drill bit for the hole (as recommended by woodcraft for these inserts).   I don't have a drill-bit-stop (is that what they're called?) so I wrapped masking tape around my drill bit so I'd know when I hit the 1/2" depth, which worked just fine.   I then used 10-24 x 1/2" bolts to put the whole thing together.

[whammoed]

Nice job.  Do you think you'll ever actually take it apart though?
My first cocktail could be disassembled if necessary, but never did...ended up selling it.  I thought it would be handy though to replace a panel if one was ever damaged or needed a design change.

[quarterback]

Nice job.  Do you think you'll ever actually take it apart though?

Probably not
I like to keep my options open, though.

I moved around a LOT in my 20s (& 30s) living in many many different states during a small portion of that time, so having an arcade cab (of any sort) wasn't really ever an option.  Even though I'm currently stable, I'd hate to have a fully constructed machine that I felt like I had to get rid of if I was to move, or that I'd be worried about getting destroyed while somebody else moved it.   So I really like the option of flattening this out.

And honestly, I'd like to have the ability to use this kit as a template at some point in the future.  A cocktail or bartop are probably the most likely kind of cab that I'd realistically build myself (I doubt I'll ever build a full sized upright).   But even with a bartop or a cocktail, I know it would take me a long time to make sure I got all the parts right.... and even then I'd potentially screw something up.   

But with this kit, I could either trace out the parts or use a router to cut out the pieces and, voila, I'd have a new kit.   

But yeah, you're right.  It's possible I never break it down

[neuromancer]

I see you've already done it, so this is moot, but since you probably won't take it apart many times, I would have just screwed strips of wood down the joints on the inside.

You just have to use short screws and not put them in too far, or else they'll poke out the other side!

Since the cabinet in the photos appears to be plywood, holding power isn't an issue, but since the screws wouldn't stick very far into the wood, I'd probably use a large number of them. I'd probably also glue the strip to the side that seemed most likely to be stressed.

But it looks like the threaded inserts will do their job, and it looks neat and tidy!

And you are on you way to having a finished cabinet -- I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of it when it's done. One advantage you method has over mine is that if you ever do need to take it apart, it will pack up very compactly.

Bob