Grrr... I am still a suckass solderer

[ChadTower]

So, I hit a new level of solder sucking today.  I couldn't even get two wires properly soldered together.  I'm trying to replace a pinball coil, and damn if the two wires didn't really want to solder together... and then never to the coil lug.

I seem to be retarded when it comes to soldering no matter what I try.  The tip of the iron gets filthy immediately and then won't get hot enough to melt solder even if I leave it there for ten seconds.  I clean it off and try to retin it, but then in minutes it is filthy again and won't conduct the heat. 

I have read all the tutorials and advice and have two soldering stations and a pencil.  I still can't even manage to solder two damn wires together to make a connection.

Tonight, trying to replace a pin coil, in 15 minutes of trying, I got exactly zero connections made, burned my left index finger pretty good, and managed to have to snip/clean one of the wires so many times that now I have to extend/jumper the thing because it won't reach the coil anymore. 

 

[eccs19]

So, I hit a new level of solder sucking today.

[RayB]

No kidding... securing what you're soldering really helps.

[Brax]

How many watts is your iron? Mine's one of the lower wattages and while I'm a pretty good solderer it would be easier if I had a hotter iron. -Of course, then you have to be quicker or you could peel up the traces too.

Without seeing what you're doing.. Here's a few tips to avoid common mistakes:

Place the heat where you want the solder to go, apply the solder to the wire (or trace) - not the iron.

Use electronics solder with the flux imbedded in it.

Your finished solder should have a nice shiny look to it. A dull look is a cold solder and won't conduct very well. (If at all.) Melt it again to get it shiny.

And.. practise, practise.

[LPZ]

OT, but I tried to repair a water pipe in my house that was leaking from a solder/sweat joint and the pipe didn't want anything to do with the flux and solder.  Sometimes older wires/pipes have a hard time conducting flux/solder flow.  I didn't do any research on this extensively, but I talked with a plumber buddy of mine and he runs into this all the time with older houses.  Maybe that's the case too, with the older wires.  Just take you time and maybe you need a hotter iron.

LPZ

[mahuti]

My dad's done a fair amount of pipe soldering... he said anytime there is still water in the pipe it won't solder cuz it just won't get hot enough. He always uses bread to suck up any residual water. Doesn't work as well if it's just for repair and not for install. As far as solder for these projects... it helps if you heat up both wires for a few seconds. Won't take as long to get the solder to apply.

[LPZ]

I see where you are coming from with the water.  I drained all the water from that particular pipe and heated it with mapp gas and still it was hot as hell and I still couldn't sweat the joint.  You could heat a tanker full of gas with a torch in one spot and it won't blow up.  If you want it to blow up, heat the portion of the tank where there is no liquid gas touching the tank.  It is called a BLEVE when it explodes.  Bleve stands for:

Boiling
Liquid
Expanding
Vapor
Explosion

Credit that to my firefighting days.  Anyway too much info for this thread.

LPZ

[Luckydevil]

A few soldering tips for you...

1) Clean your two wire ends with rubbing alcohol and a cotton ball before applying flux.

This makes sure they are clean of impurities and lets the solder flow much better. I'm not sure if it is the manufacturing process on some wires, but I've had wires that were brand new and had some sort of coating on them that prevented the solder from flowing properly.

2) Get a third hand... these things rock (and they are cheap too). Just remove the magnifying glass and use the two clips to hold your wires for you. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=319

3) If your soldering iron tip is acting up, take some sandpaper to it (when cold of course) and remove the top layer. Then retin the tip and it should be good as new.

Hope that helps.

[krick]

Make sure you have an iron no more than 25 or 30 watts.  For delicate stuff, many people recommend 15 watts.  I've tried 15 watt irons and I haven't been able to solder for crap with them.   I keep coming back to my trusty old 30 watt model.

If the tip is black, lightly sand and re-tin the tip of the iron.  If it's not shiny and silver, you won't be able to solder with it.  Google for instructions on how to properly tin the tip so you do it correctly.  It's not as simple as it seems.

Just before touching the iron to the spot you're trying to solder, I find that if I touch the solder to the tip and remove it (creating a tiny spot of wet solder), then touch that wet spot to the joint, it helps the joint heat up much faster and I can feed more solder in almost immediately.  I think the hardest part of soldering is doing it quickly enough that you don't melt wire insulation.

Keep an old wet washcloth nearby and wipe the tip of the iron off religiously while soldering, especially if you touched the solder to the tip like I mentioned above.

Get a metal solder stand designed to dissipate the iron's heat while it's waiting for the next use.  This will greatly help keep it from overheating and burning up the tip.

I got a cheap metal soldering stand from Bob Roberts..
http://homearcade.org/BBBB/ss.jpg
...the sponge is worthless but that's what I have the wet washcloth for anyway.

[mahuti]

If the tip is black, lightly sand and re-tin the tip of the iron.  If it's not shiny and silver, you won't be able to solder with it.  Google for instructions on how to properly tin the tip so you do it correctly.  It's not as simple as it seems.

Ha, so you say. Mine's totally jacked and still works like a charm. Still and all... probably good advice.

[danny_galaga]

i cant remember what sort of equipment you have but these are the main things you should remember:

1) cheap is bad when it comes to irons. you can get away with it (like i do) once youve had some experience. in my case i was an apprentice and was soldering all sorts of things every working day. you can even get solder for aluminium! but that REALLY blows to try and solder. not very saisfactory...

2) if its not copper you are soldering, it has to be REALLY clean. eg, stainless steel, aluminium

3) unless you are doing something really dodgy, avoid acid flux. this is best used for things that need a flame, for instance silver soldering stainless steel.

4) what Krick says! ie:

Just before touching the iron to the spot you're trying to solder, I find that if I touch the solder to the tip and remove it (creating a tiny spot of wet solder), then touch that wet spot to the joint, it helps the joint heat up much faster and I can feed more solder in almost immediately.  I think the hardest part of soldering is doing it quickly enough that you don't melt wire insulation.

[Orclord]

Have you tried "Tinning" the individual wires before joining them ?

I always find this helps, plus if there is any crap on the wires you will notice it because the solder will not adhere properly. You can then deal with that on it's own, rather than trying to deal with that AND joining the wires.

[bossyman15]

what about that new cold heat iron?

https://www.asseenontvnetwork.com/vcc/coldheat/coldheat/products/121315/

i'm thinking about getting it some day

it look very easy to use and safe too.

anybody used that before? (not me)

[mahuti]

I've used one... and MAN do those things suck. The tip broke after 10 minutes of use.

[bossyman15]

really!? damn! what a rip off!

[ChadTower]

I was using a 35w pencil iron... it could be that the solder I tinned on is burning in between uses... I definitely need a little clip. I was having trouble holding the wires in place, since it IS on an upturned playfield, not on a bench.  I tried using pliers but the pliers were leeching all of the heat away.  I forgot that I do have a helping hands stand, I'll steel one of the little clips from that.  Good call.

[SirPeale]

Also, remember that you're soldering a *coil*.  Those little basts suck up a LOT of heat.  So you're going to have to leave your iron there longer to get the solder to melt. 

[RetroACTIVE]

When soldering wires together... twist first as mentioned above... but place your iron tip underneath the wires and apply solder to the topside of the heated wire.

Also a good idea to keep the tip clean while working (yes when it its hot) ...give it a few swipes across a damp sponge.  Sandpaper is fine when it is cold.

Also as mentioned above, if you are using one of those cheapo irons where the tip is held in place by one little screw... don't they totally suck and will frustrate the heck out of you.  Many people don't like the old trigger Weller type... cause it is clunky... but it is really OK for basic wiring.  I would not recommend it for PCB work though.

[Tim]

Just curious.. you say coil.. Im not sure just where/what you are trying to solder on this coil but wire for coils are coated. They might look like bare wire but you never get it to solder. Try scraping the wire with a knife then try soldering it.

[ChadTower]

There are three tabs on the base of the coil that are where you would solder wires... they're designed for that.

Yeah, one of those irons where the tip is held in by one screw.  The only other irons have are both soldering stations... can't use that on an upturned playfield.

Twisting the wires didn't work because they were too short to strip very far, and I did in fact end up cutting them too far.  Now I have to pick up some wire and extend them a bit so they will reach the coil without being stressed.

Putting the tip under the wire and the solder on top would never have worked.  The solder didn't even melt to a shiny blob when I put the solder ON the tip.

[Stingray]

Putting the tip under the wire and the solder on top would never have worked.  The solder didn't even melt to a shiny blob when I put the solder ON the tip.

You sure you don't need to replace it? I use a 15 watt soldering iron and don't have anything like that problem. My old one finally got to the point where it will barely melt solder, so I replaced it.

-S

[krick]

I an iron won't melt solder when touched directly to the tip means one of two things...

1) the iron is broken, or more likely

2)  the tip needs to be cleaned and re-tinned


I've also seen situations where the tip has come partially unscrewed and doesn't conduct heat that well but that's really rare.

[Stingray]

I've also seen situations where the tip has come partially unscrewed and doesn't conduct heat that well but that's really rare.

That happened with my old one quite a bit. That would usually be the first thing I checked if it didn't seem to be getting hot enough.

-S

[ChadTower]

I must be missing something about the tinning part, though.  If I tin it, no matter what iron I use, within a few minutes the solder I tinned with becomes a charred coating on the tip, preventing heat transfer.

[RetroACTIVE]

What kind of solder are you using?

[ChadTower]

It's a good question.  A friend of me gave me an unlabeled spool and said it was electronics solder.  My next step is to chuck that and buy some that I know for sure is the right stuff.

[RetroACTIVE]

Some of the cheap stuff can have bad flux which actually creates oxidation / deposits on the tip... giving you that black crap... I've seen it before... no matter what you do you can't get rid of it...

[ChadTower]

BTW:

[MaximRecoil]

I've never had something refuse to solder unless there was a damn good reason for it. There is no magic to it. If it is clean, there is enough heat, you have flux and solder then it will solder; unless you are trying to solder unsolderable materials.

With wire, it has to be clean obviously. The easiest way to be sure of this is to cut the old exposed wire off and restrip the insulation to expose fresh wire. Twist the two sets of wires to be soldered, together, and put your iron on the bottom and solder from the top, directly to the wire after it is hot enough. If your iron isn't all that hot and the wire is a bit thick, dab a bit of solder directly to the tip of the iron near where the wire is resting, and the molten solder will flow onto the wire and dump its heat into the wire quickly, which will get the wires hot enough to take the solder quicker (at which point you solder directly to the wire as usual). Your iron or the condition of the tip doesn't matter, just as long as it gets hot (gunk on the tip isn't going to insulate it that much. I've resoldered cracked solder joints on a PCB of an old remote control with a flat bladed screw driver heated with a propane torch before and it worked perfectly (I didn't have a soldering iron on hand at the time).

Someone mentioned pipe soldering. I've never had a problem with that either, even with ancient pipes in this 150 year old house of mine. Making sure the pipe and the inside of any new joints you will be adding (elbows, couplers, etc) are clean where you intend to solder is the key, and by clean I mean rough sandpaper or a wire brush so that you expose fresh bare copper (do this to even brand new pipe and joints). Make sure everything is well fluxed, i.e. the outside of the pipe and the inside of any new joints, usually couplers for repair of old pipes. The pipe also has to be completely drained of water; the bread trick that someone mentioned earlier works well, for times when it is difficult or impossible to drain the pipes completely, such as around certain elbows.

[vader]

Had to be something with the solder like previous poster said.  You can solder or you can't.  If iron is hot and tinned, then it is the solder.  Just get some rosin core solder from rat shack and you problems will go away.  Those ratshack irons are good for the occasional job, but get yourself a good iron if you do solering constantly.  I have a Weller WLC 100 which is just a basic solder station that I paid 100 bucks for new...


eBay Link

Pick this up for under 50 now.

Tim


edit by moderator: for goodness sakes, shorten those URLs!

[bionicbadger]

from the marvin3m guide:
1b. Before Beginning: How did you learn to solder?
Soldering a new coil in a game is one thing. A sloppy job won't really affect much. Sloppy soldering on a circuit board is another matter however. A circuit board can be totally ruined with bad soldering. Also the equipment and techniques are a bit different on circuit boards than on coils.
I remember when I first learned to solder. My dad taught me with a soldering pencil, some paper clips, and some rosin core solder. I was probably 10 years old, and I thought it was fun! What he had me do first was make a box out of the paper clips. Using needlenose pliers, I constructed one side of the three dimensional box. Then I soldered the points where the paper clips came together. When I was done, it was a pretty nifty 3-D box, and I was proud.

Nostalgia aside, this was a good first experience. It taught me how to solder, at the expense of only some paper clips. If one has novice soldering skills, start small and practice! Sacrifice some paper clips and make a "box".



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1b. Before Beginning: Practice makes Perfect.
If a pinball machine is in the future plans, then the owner needs to know how to solder! Knowing how to do basic soldering of wires onto solenoids (coils) and switches is a must. Due to the vibration of solenoids and players in a pinball machines, wires do break off coils and switches. It happens, and the owner will need to know how to deal with it!
Basic soldering is pretty straight forward. Get a soldering station and some good quality solder (as decribed below). Having the right tools is 75% of the job! And remember, a good solder job on a coil or switch starts with a good *mechanical* connection. That is, the wire should be mounted to the coil or switch lug before being soldered, and stay put! After that, soldering the wire is just a matter of heating the wire and the lug *together*, and then applying a small amount of solder. The solder should be applied to the wire or lug, and *not* directly to the soldering iron's tip. This ensures the solder will flow over the wire and the lug, and that they are heated to the right temperature. The soldering iron can then be removed from the joint. Now keep the solder joint steady while it cools, otherwise it could produced a "cold" solder joint (one that does not conduct electricity freely).

Once this basic soldering is mastered, the next step (maybe!) is solder on a Printed Circuit Board (PCB). If one has never soldered a PCB before, don't try your first attempt on a (expensive!) pinball CPU or Driver board! Practice on some junk boards first.

Junk circuit boards are easy to get. Video game collectors can often provide some junk JAMMA games board or other boards. Maybe there's an old PC computer (which you couldn't give away!) that's could be used. Practice circuit boards aren't that hard to find. You just gotta look. Even if one has to pay for some junk boards, it's well worth it.

Another alternative is to go to Radio Shack and buy some cheap resistors (about 50 cents for five), and some "breadboard" print circuit board material with holes, part number 276-150 at $1.19, or part number 276-168 at $2.49. Practice soldering the resistors to the board. This is not as good practice as using a real printed circuit board though (there's nothing like the real thing). Remember to clean the copper on the Radio Shack board with some Scotchbrite before trying to solder them (unsoldered virgin copper likes to oxidize, making soldering difficult). But please read the tips and info below before starting.

[ChadTower]

I have a decent quality new soldering station, as well as an old but high quality weller station.

You can't use a station on a pinball playfield, though.  Some things require a pencil you can move around a bit more.

I'm hoping it's the iron, maybe the single screw holding it in issue... I'm probably going to try again tonight with a different approach.  I'm also going to buy a coil of 12 or 16 gauge wire and some new solder, cut the wire into about 45 pieces, and solder all of them into one new line.  I'll test it at the end to make sure I have continuity.  Practice, baby.

[vader]

If you have a good station, then I don't know what the problem is besides bad solder.

and that link is a soldering pencil station 

Tim

This is the station I have....I was off on the model number

[ChadTower]

If you have a good station, then I don't know what the problem is besides bad solder.

and that link is a soldering pencil station

[vader]

If you have a good station, then I don't know what the problem is besides bad solder.

and that link is a soldering pencil station 

You can't use a station on an upright pinball playfield, as I keep saying... at least not without rigging a table to put the station itself onto.  What are you going to do, hold the pencil in one hand and the station in the other?



I'm sorry......I thought a 4 ft wire that goes from the station to the iron would be long enough.


Edit...you would need a table, tv tray anything just to put next to the pinall machine

Tim

[ChadTower]

4 feet could work in some circumstances, possibly... they should put that info in the auction.  There isn't a length in there and the picture doesn't give any indication of that either.

[vader]

I was referring to the length on my own station...different model than that...I'm looking for the length of that one out of curiosity now.  I still think your solder is the problem on your end, any iron should work fine for what your doing.

Timi

[ChadTower]

That's what I'm hoping... the solder came in an "electronics repair kit" my friend had, but eh, who knows...

[SirPeale]

Just curious.. you say coil.. Im not sure just where/what you are trying to solder on this coil but wire for coils are coated. They might look like bare wire but you never get it to solder. Try scraping the wire with a knife then try soldering it.

Pinball coils have the wires attached to solder tabs.  They're there specifically to be soldered to.

Again, the coil will suck up a *lot* of heat.  However, if when you put solder directly on the tip, and it does nothing, then it sounds like your iron is suspect.

Do you have a soldering GUN?  Tons of juice, and it'll make quick work of that job.

[MaximRecoil]

However, if when you put solder directly on the tip, and it does nothing, then it sounds like your iron is suspect.

Did he say that? Yeah, if the solder wire won't even melt when directly touching the tip then the iron is not getting hot enough, and is probably junk. Radio Shack has them for what, $7? Bob Roberts has cheap ones too for $5. In fact, he has a whole starter kit that comes with a stand and a solder sucker for $12.50 which is a hell of a deal if you ask me.

You don't need anything fancy for general purpose soldering anyway.