A question of ethics

[ashardin]

Here is something that has come to light recently for me, and I ask the members of the board for their opinion as well.

Last year I built my custom M.A.M.E. machine and I love it, so does everyone that comes over and plays it.  As many of you have probably experienced, one question I get repeatedly is "How much for you to to make me one?"  Now, for Christmas, I made two machines for others, one was my brother's family and one was a very good family friend.  Both of these I did at the cost of materials.  I had no problem with that.  I was  donating my time to make it for families that are very special to me.  

Now, they are both very successful families (doctor and bank president), and have shown it off to their successful, well-to-do friends and I have gotten inquiries and offers from their friends as well.  Many of these offers were for substantial amounts and would result in a very nice side business for myself, and I have the free time available.  My question is not in the business side of it, that is for me to weigh the pros, cons, and risks, but it is in the ethics of it.

Why the ethics?  M.A.M.E. is a freeware project, and one that I greatly respect the talents of the dev team.  Talents and knowledge in programming that I don't have, or I would contribute to thier project.  Rather, I was able to use their creation and apply things that I know to make a full sized arcade cabinet.  If I was to build these machines for people, they would want the emulator and roms as well (a finished product, if you will).  Would I then be contributing to selling the emulator and roms at a profit?  Along with the fact that the roms are techincally illegal (or a at least a grey area) if you don't own the boards.  I would be breaking the law, and selling an illegal machine.

I guess you could always sell the "shell", with no computer or a computer set up with no roms as other companies on the net do, but that is not what I am being asked to do.  These are not people that are interested in the emulator, configuring it, etc.  They want the finished product as the see it, and don't understand or care about the freeware license and the technicality of the roms.

So my question is, where do you sit on this?  Have you been asked, have you built machines for other people?  If not, would you (if you had the time and desire)?  

The positive side is that I have seen what impact it has made in these other families.  Not only has it brought them together to play, but it has experience the kids to classic games, games that they may have heard of but would never have a chance to play.  That's cool for an old game nut like me.  Seeing my nephew light up when I show him what Galaga is like and see him disregard his PS2 to master a classic (not that there is anything wrong with the PS2 games themselves), its a kick to see him enjoy the games I played when I was his age.

I just wonder what the rest of the board thinks about this.

Andy

[atog]

Just my opinion but I feel that the more people who get to experience the joys of MAME and 80's arcade games - the better.  Assuming none of these will be put in a location where they would attempt to generate revenue (and I am sure they would not be) I think the more people you can get these to, the more you are carrying through on the spirit and wishes of the entire MAME community.  

Nobody is going to get to relive being 13 and spending an hour in their arcade playing a newly released Joust II, but seeing a kid playing on a MAME cabinet instead of an X-Box is the next best thing.

[hyiu]

My personal opinion about this is....
be up front and let them know what this is about...

I personally will not sell a cab if I know the buyer will have any intention of making $$ out of it... (just for family/friends enjoyment...)

I will also make him realize that he's not buying an arcade cabinet... he's buying a cab with a PC in it running an emulator....

I finished a cab for my co-worker this summer...
Like me, he's interested in gaming, but not interested in the whole wiring/wood-working process... (otoh... I also like power tools... heee hee.....    )

so I charged him for all the parts that comes with it... and a couple hundred for labor... (I spend like 2 months.... wkday after work... wkends...) to completely re-do the whole cab...

and I let him know what is the deal about Mame.... (the grey area of copyrights... etc)... and he agrees to it....
so... in simple words.... I made him aware what he's going to have in his living room before we say "yes" to the deal....
he KNOWS and UNDERSTAND that he's not paying for 2000 legal arcades combined in 1... he's only paying for parts of the hardware and my labor..... and how mame comes in place...

did I make a profit on this deal ??.... seriously... I don't think so... (with all the time spent and all the sawdust that I have sucked in....) but its a fun project...

I didn't just sell him a finished cab.... he's aware of the software... and general layout... "legal" terms about this thing.....

if you told him... and he understands it... and he's ok with the whole deal... then I see no reason why you don't do it....... and earn some extra $$.... I guess that's what all those companies on the net are selling... right ??

[2slk]

 The bottom line is if you are going to use your time, skills and expertise for any project of this scope and you feel that you should be paid for it, you would be foolish to give it away. The exception to this of course, is close friends and family. Beyond that, the unfortunate reality is that we need money to get by in this society. You have a skill set that someone else doesn't and they are willing to pay for your expertise. No dilemma there. After all, building a cabinet is not illegal.
 
 The big issue is MAME and the ROMS. Selling MAME for profit is a BIG no-no and the ROMS are always a sensitive issue. Essentially though, this all boils down to semantics. If you want to make money off the cabinets, there is a multi-colored galaxy of ways to justify this to yourself and to others while keeping it legal. Say you built them the cabinet at a nice profit and then volunteered your time to set MAME up and acquire ROMS for them (through legal means of course... I'm sure that's how you got all your ROMS).

 There is sometimes a fine line between being engaged in illegal enterprise and being on the right side of the law. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

 You basically know the rules so if making a profit is your goal, go ahead but sort out what your stance is within the scope of your morals and make sure you are on the legal side of the fence.  

 In summary, there are ways to achieve profit while keeping it legal. If making money is the goal, there is nothing unethical about doing it - legally.

[Jakobud]

I wouldn't worry about the ethics of that.  It's not like you are selling Mame or the roms.  You are selling a cabinet and your time.  You could even just build the cabinet, put in the computer and remove all the roms and Mame if you want and just give it to them like that and leave it up to them to put on anything that is questionably unethical.

atog is right.  The more people that are into retro games the better.

[eightbit]

I wouldn't worry about the ethics of that.  It's not like you are selling Mame or the roms.  You are selling a cabinet and your time.  You could even just build the cabinet, put in the computer and remove all the roms and Mame if you want and just give it to them like that and leave it up to them to put on anything that is questionably unethical.

atog is right.  The more people that are into retro games the better.

Ashardins point was these people don't want a cab ready to install mame, they want mame and its roms installed, configured and ready to play. I've also been approached to build cabs and so far I've been to busy with other projects to consider doing a cab for someone else but I've thought about the implications.

[Homebrew]

I'm glad you brought this subject up ashardin, as i have been facing a similar opportunity.  I'm almost finished my first cab(its playable at this point) and everyone who's seen it wants one.  A few of these people seem pretty serious and i know they can afford to do it.  I really enjoyed building mine and think it would be a nice way to make some extra cash.  But i too have questioned the mame and roms subject.  I'm also very concerned with the legal side of it.  I've been looking at it pretty much like 2slk stated.  I'd be making the cabinet for a profit, but i would volunteer my TIME to HELP setup mame and the roms as well as any related software.  However i still wrestle back and forth about it.  I don't see it so much as making a profit off of mame since really what most people would be paying for is the labor to build the machine.  I think the thing to keep in mind is how much you know and trust the people you build for.  Also certainly make sure they know what MAME is all about and the legality of roms and such.  All in all i think 2slk summed it up pretty well, but i'd still like to hear other people's thoughts as well.  

-Kevin

[SirPoonga]

I;d be up front with them.  Telling them that you could build it, BUT no games.  Of course you can talk to them and let them know it is possible to have these games but it isn;t exactly legal, however for 80s games most companies aren;t making money off of it, etc, usual story.

OR have them look at something like haanaho, prebuilt cabinet, with computer, with legal roms.

[eightbit]

OR have them look at something like haanaho, prebuilt cabinet, with computer, with legal roms.

Can you buy their front end with the roms? How much? This is actually a pretty good idea.

[SirPoonga]

OR have them look at something like haanaho, prebuilt cabinet, with computer, with legal roms.

Can you buy their front end with the roms? How much? This is actually a pretty good idea.

I am not sure, you'd have to contact them.

[Smittydc]

I don't think anyone should be making a profit off of mame or ROMs, but besides that its largely an issue of semantics.  

Ashardin: I'd explain to the person you're making the cabinet for the issues so he knows what he's getting into.  Then I'd install all the games.

For those who take a holier-than-thou attitude on this I ask how many of the games that you play do you have the boards for?  Why do some mamers jump on one illegality like a pack of starving wolves, while turning a blind eye to the other?

[ashardin]

I appreciate all of your well thought out answers.  I agree that what I would be selling would be the time, effort, and skill on the cabinet (and interfacing everything together), but there other things to consider as well, since the cabinet is useless as a final product without the emulator and the roms to these people.  There is a segment of the population like us where the joy is in the creation, but the majority's interests lie with the final product, with no regard to the creation and no desire to learn about it.

I've had a slow day at work this afternoon, so i put together a document that I'm thinking of giving people that ask me about building them a machine.  I would ask that if anyone has an interest in this topic shoot me an email at ashardin@yahoo.com and I will forward it.  Its kind of a primer to mame, some of the legal issues involved, and then what I would be doing to make the final product (including support).

I really think that this is an important topic to many of us as we continue to build and refine these things.  Every one of us that has one sitting in our house is going to get this question!

[SirPoonga]

For those who take a holier-than-thou attitude on this I ask how many of the games that you play do you have the boards for?  Why do some mamers jump on one illegality like a pack of starving wolves, while turning a blind eye to the other?

It's not that, it's just that you get more noticed and more in trouble if you try and make a profit off of illegal roms.  It's alot more risky to do that than just download.  Think of it from a capotalist point of view where you are teh company that use to make money off of the 80s product.  Games need to be new in order to really make money.  However if someone starts to successfully make money off illegal roms that the company owns that means the company could be making that money.  The purpose of the copywrite law is so the owner is the one who makes money.  If someone downladed a rom they aren't making money off of why would they want to spend money fighting it?

Note I am not saying anything about being right or wrong.  It's just once you start making money you open a whole new can of worms that is much larger.  Just downloading them is a small can of worms, still an issue, but an issue that most of the 80s arcade manufactures out there will just keep an eye on since it isn't worth the money to fight something that old.

BTW, this is one of the reason I think laws need to change as time changes, especially for electronics.  Computer evole fast, and even faster as time goes on.  Old software can't keep up, so why should it still be something to worry about.

[Kilgore]

I congratulate you on contemplating the ethics of such as transaction.  

I assume you use MAME and that you do not have the rights to the majority of ROMs that you use.  So you obviously aren't a saint just a normal person.  If I were you, I would inform the prospective customers of the legality of the ROMs they wish to use and let them make their decision.  I would make them participate in the copying of the ROMs and use the wait time to once again explain the legality of ROMs, the motivation behind MAME, and the fact that there isn't a practical way to have a legal fully loaded MAME cabinet.

I take every opportunity when I see people sharing ROMs, pirating software, etc. to at least make sure they are informed about what they are doing.  I have come across plenty of people who think it is perfectly legal to use ROMs as long as they don't sell them, that is okay to share software as long as they are using an original (someone else's), or that it is legal to copy someone else's audio CDs due to "fair use".

Just the other day one of my coworkers dropped his jaw when he learned I paid for software that is freely available (Trillian).  I didn't do this for the added features, I did this to support the software.  If I could purchase game ROMs in a way that would support and encourage the owners to release more and make them available, then I would.  But I don't have that option.  

I personally enjoy MAME myself.  There are probably about 30 games which I am legally entitled to use, though I only play a couple of those on MAME, the rest are played in a real cabinet.  My vertical cabinet uses a free distributable OS (FreeDOS), a free emulator (MAME), to play pirated game ROM.  Oh the irony.  I also own the CDs to 99% of my MP3,  speed, own lots of DVDs, help little old ladies cross the street, and enjoy porn.  

Sinner or Saint?

[SirPoonga]

I congratulate you on contemplating the ethics of such as transaction.  

I assume you use MAME and that you do not have the rights to the majority of ROMs that you use.  So you obviously aren't a saint just a normal person.  If I were you, I would inform the prospective customers of the legality of the ROMs they wish to use and let them make their decision.  I would make them participate in the copying of the ROMs and use the wait time to once again explain the legality of ROMs, the motivation behind MAME, and the fact that there isn't a practical way to have a legal fully loaded MAME cabinet.

I take every opportunity when I see people sharing ROMs, pirating software, etc. to at least make sure they are informed about what they are doing.  I have come across plenty of people who think it is perfectly legal to use ROMs as long as they don't sell them, that is okay to share software as long as they are using an original (someone else's), or that it is legal to copy someone else's audio CDs due to "fair use".

Just the other day one of my coworkers dropped his jaw when he learned I paid for software that is freely available (Trillian).  I didn't do this for the added features, I did this to support the software.  If I could purchase game ROMs in a way that would support and encourage the owners to release more and make them available, then I would.  But I don't have that option.  

I personally enjoy MAME myself.  There are probably about 30 games which I am legally entitled to use, though I only play a couple of those on MAME, the rest are played in a real cabinet.  My vertical cabinet uses a free distributable OS (FreeDOS), a free emulator (MAME), to play pirated game ROM.  Oh the irony.  I also own the CDs to 99% of my MP3,  speed, own lots of DVDs, help little old ladies cross the street, and enjoy porn.  

Sinner or Saint?

Well put:)

BTW, out of curiosity, does listening to mp3s help you buy CDs?  Just curious.  For me it does, I bought the White Stripes CD because I couldn't find any of their songs online in good quality other than their hit.  I wish people would listen to their rips before sharing  That's actually the main reason I buy CDs, other people just can't rip them well.  You then ask why use mp3 when I have the CD?  I have a set top box mp3 player hooked up to my home theater system.   It's harddrive based.  But better than changing CDs, and it was only $20 because it was just the circuit part, I had to build the box.  And once you hook up an mp3 player to good speakers you end up realizing people just don't rip mp3s very well.

Kinda off topic for this thread, but I am curious.

[kspiff]

Ethics aside.. another consideration:

Should you set up the emulators and throw on ROMs post-sale.. what if they hose the computer?  You're back there the next day a la tech-support!

That's why Compaq and other OEMs only supports software for 90 days or whatever (though after that they have resources to handle and bill for said support, which you probably don't).

I would give them the info on getting ROMs.. maybe set it up the first time.. but make it known that their support is not unlimited.  Hell, I'd be bugging you every time a new MAME came out.. my ROM ---smurfette---  

Or you could just make custom quickrestore-type discs for each cabinet.. another cornucopia of legality issues.

Just more food for thought.. it's one thing if you don't know how to built an arcade cabinet.. if you don't want to learn how to use MAME (or -- even worse -- a computer).. well.. how much money are we talking here..?  

kspiff

[Merce]

kspiff beat me to it.

Ethics aside, I wouldn't build a cab, or computer for that matter, for anyone even close friends because I don't want to be responsible for the tech support on it.  If they don't have intimate knowledge of how it's all working together, what happens when something inevitably goes wrong?  You know who they're gonna be calling.

I'm also of the opinion that anyone not willing to spend the time to configure mame and roms, doesn't deserve mame, not matter cool they think it is and how much money they're willing to spend.  It's not like it's rocket science.

But money talks, so good luck whatever you decide.

[ripzone]

Just my opinion but I feel that the more people who get to experience the joys of MAME and 80's arcade games - the better.  Assuming none of these will be put in a location where they would attempt to generate revenue (and I am sure they would not be) I think the more people you can get these to, the more you are carrying through on the spirit and wishes of the entire MAME community.  

Nobody is going to get to relive being 13 and spending an hour in their arcade playing a newly released Joust II, but seeing a kid playing on a MAME cabinet instead of an X-Box is the next best thing.

Well, actually I am a 13 years old portuguese boy, believe you or not, and I love play classic games, and I am in the process of building a M.A.M.E. cab. I have a PS2 and a X-Box but I like more to play classic games.  

I also think the best option is to tell the buyers about the legal and illegal aspects of a M.A.M.E. cab.

I only have an 5in1 arcade board so all other M.A.M.E. games that I have are illegal. Shhh, Don't tell anyone!

When I finish the cab, I will post photos and I will do a website. Well, actually I have one but it is a test website. (http://www.ripcabinets.cjb.net)
I have half the parts to start my cab: I-Pac, Opti-Pac, Oscar Spinner, 25" CGA Monitor, Speaker amplifier, 5" speakers!

I think I am the youngest BYOAC'er here doing a cab.

Sorry, for my stupid English.
Don't talk very well!

[generousben]

Ethics?
WHAT A BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES  

i dont see what ur all going on about

every one used to copy there games and software on old tape and floppy disk drive computers,
consoles have always had  cartridge  
backup devices,
and how many people own chiped ps2 s

now since pcs dominate the scene reproducing anything is easy .

apart from the software bundled with hardware i brought,
i dont own any original software,
all my pc games are cracked copies brought in asia,
im not boasting ,but thats the way it is .

i dont see any one complaining of ethics when they load up a cracked/hacked copy of windows?

or install the latest utillity they downloaded off the net.
when they burn the latest album to share with a friend.

like most people i  have 10,000 roms knocking about.
i never owed a n64 but have 800 roms for it.
even if the n64 emulator didnt exist i could still probably run these on an original n64 using a n64 backup device/rom reader.

making a cab for some and then not supplying the roms but telling them where to get them from.......what a load of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.
what difference does that make?
some one is still supplying them
what that makes you feel like your so honest.?

"its the same as making a crack pipe for someone not supplying any crack with it but then giving them the number of a top quality rock dealer"

we are all sitting at home using an arcade cab with 10,000
games on it that we never paid for, giving your friends a set of  rom cds isnt going to harm or change that fact.

the only ethics is maybe  to the mame team it self,whithout there hard work we wouldnt have the emulator,
but then thats made a knock on effect?

other people dump the roms,
other people host the roms
people make devices to alow you to use the roms and mame in an arcade cab.

and what about hanaho?
do u think there care about ethics?
have they added software into there machine which only allows you to play the roms hanaho has the rights for?

i think if you have a problem with the whole copyrite and legal issuse then thats up to u, but then surly know one else's views would alter yours anyway.

anyway im off to get changed into my counterfeit clothing  smoke some weed ,then im going to drive above the speed limit while using my mobile phone listning to a album i downloaded,all the way to the mall.
when i get there im going to spend my weeks wages on microsoft software so bill gates can buy a new island to holiday on.
after that im going to pay all my taxes .
then join the army and go and bomb and kill a load of people in the middle east just because they have mustaches and dont share the same opions as me.

isnt life swell

and remeber,

never,never ever.

sell a mame cab with the roms because that is just like sooooooo wrong and you will end up in hell sitting beside
adolf hitler with only a sega master system to play with.





 

[Chris]

This is a tricky question. I'll go ahead and do the ROMs for a close friend, but for a cabinet-for-hire, I would find an autoconfiguring front end, set it up with FreeDOS (or the version of Windows that came with the PC, if it came with one), MAME and the three legal ROMs, and tell them where to find the rest.  That way your backside is covered; when money changes hands, you have to watch the legalities closer.

[Frostillicus]

I sold my first cab to a friend for just a little over parts.  He is not what you'd call tech-savvy.  Anyways - it was for his home or his little office studio, and would not make any money off it(nor does he know how to install a coin door/switches/etc even if he wanted to).

The thing was expensive to build(the d9200 cost over 500 bucks alone), took a few weeks and late nights to finish it, so I didn't have a problem charging a bit more than parts. Hey I gotta eat.  He is fully aware of the shadiness of MAME and emulation in general, so I told him I'd install the software after it's all moved in to his home and stuff and keep it just for friends and family.  Over Xmas his little nephews were playing the cab(TNMT in particular) more than his xbox(on widescreen with big sound system).  I think that's great.

I wouldn't worry too much about Emulation Ethics if it's for home use, though I do support shareware and have donated to this board, for example   Oh, and I too have bought CD's based on an MP3 that i've downloaded.

As long as no one uses the cab commercially, I don't have a problem with it.

[JuddWack]

You could tell them what type of computer they need for the games they play.  If they dont know much
about computers then mabye help them pick it out.  Supply them with some of their favorite roms and let
them know it is ilegal for them to keep it for more than 24 hours if they dont own them.  If they are
pleased with that, tell them you will biold them a cabnet, and they can put the cpu in themselves.  Wood-
working is a art.  THerefore making a cabinet is a art.  Artists sell their work.  But I definatly agree with
a coment earlier, dont put a coin door on.  Even if they are friends, when they are ready for a upgrade,
you never know where the old one may end up.

[Kilgore]

Supply them with some of their favorite roms and let them know it is ilegal for them to keep it for more than 24 hours if they dont own them.  

Or you could tell them the truth and let them know that they are illegal to use at all and probably illegal to even posess.

You also let them know that the chances that they will be get in trouble for personal use of these ROMs is an order of magnitude less than if you loaned him an audio CD and he copied that (which of course is illegal).

[PoDunkMoFo]

Why not at least make them buy the Classic games that are available for sale.  Then you could at least rest easys knowing nobody was cheated out of any money.  If downloaded roms are the only way to get a game then are you really taking anything from anyone.  But if you hook them up with games that are available for sale my opinion is that would be ethicaly questionable.  Besides a Doctor and a Bank President should be able to buy a couple of $30 software packages.

[JayTea]

       Here's what I would do (might do).  Since I have built my "Fantasic 4" cab (I'll explain the name later), I have had several inquiries from friends who want a garage toy.  I will build the Cab, buy them the CPU (w/OS) and monitor - all wired and tested on my laptop (making it plug and play with the IPAC and trackball hack).

      I will give them the e-mails of some individuals who burn Mame CD's (which usually includes the latest version of MAME), and this website URL.  If they really want to play these games, they will do a little legwork.  2000 games per cab vs 1???  They won't cry too hard.  If they are Dr.'s and Lawyers, they are not beyond a little research and downloading/ installing instructions.

     This way, you have done nothing illegal or questionable.  You have built a fully functional cab, and all the end user has to do is plop in MAME, get the roms, download them in the same directory, and plug in the IPAC and Trackball.  All "grey area" items are left up to the end-user.  

     I understand the plight of delivering a fully-functional cab, but I don't think you can sell a complete cab and say the "Mame and Roms were free" - That argument wouldn't hold up in a court of law, I don't think.  But everyone's morality starts and stops at different places, and I'm not judging anyone, or I'd be a hippo...hipocrite...

That's my 2 cents, and thats about all their are worth!

[eightbit]

Why not at least make them buy the Classic games that are available for sale.  Then you could at least rest easys knowing nobody was cheated out of any money.  If downloaded roms are the only way to get a game then are you really taking anything from anyone.  But if you hook them up with games that are available for sale my opinion is that would be ethicaly questionable.  Besides a Doctor and a Bank President should be able to buy a couple of $30 software packages.

Are there any arcade authentic packages? This would be a great solution for a project that I want to do but I want them to be close to authentic. IE not console recreation type games.

No I'm not going to charge money for playing them. Their will be a free credit button.

[PoDunkMoFo]

If Im' correct I Believe the Return of the Arcade?(Microsoft not sure on the exact title) are all emulated games.  Also there are a couple of laser games (Dragonslare and SpaceAce) that have been released and are authentic.  There are at least two of the microsoft packages with I believe about 5 games each.  I even think I saw some on e-bay.

[rampy]

Supply them with some of their favorite roms and let
them know it is ilegal for them to keep it for more than 24 hours if they dont own them.  

Oh yeah, that's really a law/rule "the 24 hour grace period"

*shakes head*

Not that i'm on some super ethical ship headed to obtained all my roms legally land, but who's kidding who with "24hour grace period" warez kidde boiler plate disclaimer b.s. , huh? really.

If something is repeated something often enough, people will believe it as fact.

You can go into circuit city or best buy grab a copy of Sims Online and say, "hey i'm gonna try this out for 24 hours, if i don't like it, i'll just delete it ok? cya l8r doodz"

*shrug* more on topic...  don't include the roms.  Include the 3 freely distributables ones and maybe a few retro packs like Atari 25th anniversary, the 2600 activision thingies, MS return of the son of arcade.... etc...  and let them know how they can obtain more if they wish ...

either that or conveniently leave the CD's in the cabinet... oops...
(but in that case, it goes back to ethics/morals more so than legality...)

*shrug*

rampy

[Ted_Striker]

What about building a cabinet, loading mame, configuring it etc. then deleting everything but the cfg files.  The the cabinet would basically be usable.  Just copy the rom files over and done, fully working cabinet.  Are cfg files considered part of mame (not to be sold etc)?  Just a thought to add more to the debate.

Personally I have no ethics when it comes to software.  I will not be a hipocrite as others have said.  I use pirated software and will not be critical of others who do.  The old "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" definately applies to me.  I would not give people roms because of the tech support issues.  People are idiots and they will call you.  I've built PC's for aunts and uncles (that I love and respect) that before the pc I wouldn't see as often.  Sure enough I would get calls every dang day with newbie questions.  They began driving me nuts!.... and hell they were family!  I can't imagine what strangers would do.

So I agree with what others have said but not on ethical grounds but on grounds of my own sanity.  Don't give them the roms.  If they aren't smart enough to figure it out then it will just be a technical support nightmare for you.  And whoever suggested no coin door... that was brilliant... I definately wouldn't want anyone putting it on location if I built it.  

If you do make them a cabinet I would write up a user's guide complete with all the wiring diagrams, basic electronics, how buttons and joysticks work, basic theory, links to happs for parts etc.  I would also make it a "turn key" product.  Tech support is a killer.

People that work any support hot line's must be Saints! ...

[rampy]

If I'm not mistaken you *can* (edit CANNOT upon further review) sell mame just sans ROMS, but of course one would have to be daft to buy a freeware application. =)

rampy

I gotta go dig up the mame license to see what it says specifically though (i.e. I could be wrong) but if they were to convert to a GPL-esque license then one could sell the software and any Public Domain roms... just not MAME + Roms that you don't have the rights to re-sell...

DOH... guess I was wrong...  from the license

"II. Cost
--------
   MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.
"

*shrug* although I understand why the language is there and worded that way.....

my bad...

[Chris]

What about building a cabinet, loading mame, configuring it etc. then deleting everything but the cfg files.  The the cabinet would basically be usable.  Just copy the rom files over and done, fully working cabinet.  Are cfg files considered part of mame (not to be sold etc)?  Just a thought to add more to the debate.

I agree.  Adding ROMS is easy.  Configuration is hard.

Personally I have no ethics when it comes to software.  I will not be a hipocrite as others have said.

I don't think it's a matter of being a hypocrite so much as covering your rear end...

I've built PC's for aunts and uncles (that I love and respect) that before the pc I wouldn't see as often.  Sure enough I would get calls every dang day with newbie questions.  They began driving me nuts!.... and hell they were family!  I can't imagine what strangers would do.

Strangers are probably less likely to call than family.  Family members think they have a right to you as a personal consultant; I'm sure doctors and lawyers and other profesionals get the same thing all the time, too... "Come on, cousin Bill, I know I haven't spoken to you in years, and you're busy, but you gotta come represent me at my drunk driving trial!  You know I can't afford a real lawyer..."

And whoever suggested no coin door... that was brilliant... I definately wouldn't want anyone putting it on location if I built it.

Good call.  For my boss's cocktail cabinet, I'm using illuminated rectangular buttons with inserts that look like lighted coin returns for the credit buttons... I may even install them in a Happ's blank access door to look like a coin door....

People that work any support hot line's must be Saints! ...

I did tech support trench duty for five years.  I had one call that lasted nine hours.... NINE HOURS!  But that guy was a personal friend of the CEO, so giving up on the call was NOT an option...

[Kilgore]

OT

Good call.  For my boss's cocktail cabinet, I'm using illuminated rectangular buttons with inserts that look like lighted coin returns for the credit buttons... I may even install them in a Happ's blank access door to look like a coin door....

This is an excellect idea!  Be sure to post pictures.

[gnateye]

heres a thought no one has mentioned, regardless of what you do why not give a lil dough to mame devs or this site? kinda like givin cash in church, moeny eases the guilty mind


personally when i make cab for family and friends, i set up mame and the roms for them, i dont charge them for them though, just for parts and labor, and i do tech help for them too, which can be a huge pain, but if you try your best make your system foolrpoff, and each system alike, troubleshooting is a little easier.

my advice is just to include those 2 cds free with the cab purchase, you should still explain all the ramafications to them etc, and if you forgot to delete the software off of hte HD before delivery, oops.