Flight stick: 8-way or analog?

[erictrumpet]

Greetings all,

I have been lurking at this forum for years but this is my first post. I've built two desktop controllers, and now I have a cab in the works.

I was not planning to incorporate a flight stick into my control panel design until I pulled out an old Thrustmaster PC stick I had in the closet (4-button with POV hat) and hooked it up to MAME and started using it as an analog stick. Now I know for sure I want a flight stick in my CP, but I don't know what kind to use:

Option 1: 8-way Happ (I've seen one of these in person and they are awesome -- I would get the version with two thumb buttons)

Option 2: Analog Happ (have not seen one, but I assume it's as nice as the 8-way -- however, if it has no thumb buttons which is how it appears to look on the Happ site, then this stick is out of the running... or could I add thumb buttons myself?)

Option 3: Just mount this Thrustmaster PC stick in my CP (it's analog and functional, and has plenty of buttons, but it's not "commercial-grade" or arcade-authentic like the Happ stuff)

Obviously I want only one flight stick, not two. So, should I go analog or 8-way?

The case for analog: If you need an analog stick for a certain game, an 8-way will not work at all, but if you need an 8-way, an analog will work (in other words, analog covers both bases although it's a bit of an authenticity compromise on 8-way games). An analog stick allows me to play Star Wars (I have no plans for a flight yoke, so without an analog flight stick, SW, ESB, and ROTJ will simply not be in my cab which would be a shame). Same goes for Afterburner and ABII, and whatever other analog flight games there may be.

The case for 8-way: It is "correct" for games like Zaxxon, Tron, Discs of Tron, etc. However, using my analog stick for these games has worked just peachy! Is there really any reason I should get an 8-way over an analog flight stick? Is the "feel" really that different?

I am leaning toward analog for the reasons above, unless there is a huge benefit to the 8-way that I am overlooking. And if I go analog, should I get the Happ stick or is the lack of thumb buttons a deal-breaker? Help!

Thanks for reading this wordy first post and I appreciate any comments/suggestions/recommendations.

Eric.

[Matthew Fisher]

Personally, I would go with the Happs analog.  I think at least three of the models on the site have thumb buttons as well as triggers.  Check the exploded views and mounting instructions to be certain.  These things are expensive, but weigh like three pounds and are built like tanks.  Supposedly, high quality pots as well. 

Look on ebay for used ones (I got one for about $25), but be prepared to change the pots or make/buy an interface.  You should be able to find info on this topic by searching the forums. 

P.S.  Don't forget that Star Wars Arcade now seems to be fully working in MAME.  Maybe this is old news to some, but not to me.  Another essential analog stick game, IMO. 

[erictrumpet]

Yayyyyy I am so glad to hear that SW Arcade is now fully working! I agree that game is a MUST-have! Thanks for your reply.

Regarding Happ analogs with and without thumb buttons, I just got off the phone with Happ and here's what the sales rep told me:

On the Tron-style stick, they are not allowed by Atari to make that particular stick with thumb buttons, even though Atari DOES allow them to make the 8-way version with thumb buttons.

So if I want the Tron-style stick, I would need to add the thumbuttons myself. I'm not sure sure how easy/difficult or even possible that would be. Has anyone done this? Looking at the exploded view it seems do-able.

Or, the Happ guy suggested part# 95-0394-00 which is a PC-compatible analog stick with the F-16 flight stick handle and all the buttons including 4-way POV hat switch. That puppy costs $299!

P.S. He also told me that Happ has updated their manufacturing facilities and they are no longer making products like this one-at-a-time on a bench, but now in a much more efficient up-to-date factory which means wait time for an order is reduced and in some cases prices have dropped. Good news!

Thanks and keep the comments on this topic coming... I still am not 100% sure on what to do here...

Eric.

[ahofle]

I would definitely go analog as well.  Wish I had the money for a nice analog stick like that.

[Farmboy90]

Hey Eric,

I am looking for guidance on this as well.  I want a stick that will work in Star Wars - don't we all? 

Anyway, if you do get one of the Happs Analog sticks are you considering the PC version?  I understand that one would allow you to hook up directly to your PC so you won't have to buy an interface board.  But I think the POTs are different so not sure about that.

Any ideas?

[RetroACTIVE]

I purchased the Happ analog flight stick (PC version) specifically for starwars and tailgunner...

A word of advice:

Don't buy the PC version, its not worth the extra cost... buy the arcade version and the ultimarc APAC... here is why:

The naitive joystick port on your pc uses only two pins of the potentiometer while the APAC interface uses all three and produces a more accurate stable joystick control.  It is very noticeable in the calibrate screen... when I first hooked up the analog stick (directly using 15 pin), the crosshair jittered all over the place... once I hooked it through the APAC... rock solid!

[mccoy178]

Make sure you price the Happ's parts with Ponyboy in the Buy Sell Trade forum, as he sells the stuff at cost!  Not to mention he is one of the most stand up guys in this place.

[erictrumpet]

Thanks RetroACTIVE for the suggestion of skipping Happ's PC version analog stick in favor of the arcade version because of the pots, and that the added cost is not worth it. However, in the case of Part#95-0393-00 (the Tron-style analog stick with trigger), the PC version is the same cost: $159 for PC version or not. To add an A-PAC to the equation actually makes the non-PC version $40 MORE expensive in the end.

Is the difference in pots really that important? I notice in the Windows calibration screen my Thrustmaster PC stick cursor appears "jumpy" as RetroACTIVE mentions, but in gameplay it seems fine (with hands off the stick, the ship/character doesn't jump around or wiggle or anything). I wish I knew more about pots and how they work. On the Happ site, the arcade version of the Tron-style stick has 5k pots, and the PC-version has "100k S Taper Pots" -- what does that mean exactly?

Thanks,
Eric.

[RetroACTIVE]

Eric,

I purchased a different one... the delta for me was 30 bucks...

http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95006500.htm

After reading my msg, I realized I probably made it sound like the difference in pots was important... I am sorry, I should have stated that the difference in the cost to add the 15 pin connector and change the pots out was not worth it... because Apac can handle any pot value.

It is not the value of the pot (5K,10K,100K etc...) that makes a difference it is the way in which it is processed/handled.  You see ultimarc actually does a little bit of smoothing within its a2d circuitry.  Connecting the joystick to the PC joystick port directly, is going to produce slight variations (because the values are raw and not pre-processed).  For some games it is not noticeable, for others it is... I found it to be no ticable in MAME... Granted you can calibrate it out somewhat because mame gives you the a2d_deadzone configuration setting to minimize this jumpiness....

As far as the value, 100K is the right load (resistance) for the PC joystick port (higher the resistance, less the current draw).  Arcades were around before PCs so for whatever reason they typically use 5-10K ohm pots.  The Apac is compatible with any value of pot.

[Farmboy90]

Eric, PonyBoy sells the stick you want (it is the one I want too) for $140.95.

Just thought I'd let you know. 

[erictrumpet]

Thanks all for the informative replies.

I am still wondering however, if it is possible (and if anyone has done it) to install a thumb button (or two) into Happ part# 95-0393-00 ("Heavy Duty Analog Trigger Joystick"), which according to the sales rep I talked to they are not allowed by Atari to manufacture with thumb buttons so it comes with trigger only.

If anyone has modified this stick to add thumb buttons (or if you think it could be done), let me know. And if so, any suggestions on what kind of buttons to use, where to get them, where to run the wires (is there room through the handle shaft?), etc.

Thanks,
Eric.

[rdagger]

I am still wondering however, if it is possible (and if anyone has done it) to install a thumb button (or two) into Happ part# 95-0393-00 ("Heavy Duty Analog Trigger Joystick"), which according to the sales rep I talked to they are not allowed by Atari to manufacture with thumb buttons so it comes with trigger only.

I have the Happ heavy duty analog trigger joystick with 2 thumb switches.  I bought mine from Happ this July.  The Happ part number is 95-1346-00.  Here is a link with pictures of it mounted.  If Happ has discontinued this model, I don't think it would be very difficult to install thumb switches.  There is plenty of space in the head of the stick.  You just need to make sure the wires are thin enough to fit through the bottom.  I also recently purchased some illuminated alarm buttons on Ebay that would probably work -- see the pic.

[Tailgunner]

I'd suggest finding a used one in a dead cab at auction. I've acquired two different three button Happ analog joysticks, payed $25 for one and $10 for the other. I also got two usable arcade cabs in the bargain. I thought I'd gotten an XY yoke for $40 the same way, till I plugged the cab in and it powered up normally.

[erictrumpet]

Rdagger, yep -- they seem to have discontinued that part#. Bummer! That seems to be exactly what I want. Thanks for the part#, now I can call them up and see if maybe they'll make one for me anyway... I'll make up some story like I have the part number because I had placed an order but then there was some mixup and it never went through... I'll say I did it last June... that fits with when you bought yours... No just kidding, I won't lie... unless I have to... lol

Tailgunner, I like your idea too -- cheap = good. But I am not an auction/gutted-cab-buying guy (yet). For one thing, I don't know where to find a cab auction. I live in the Chicago area. Any local suggestions?

Thanks
Eric.

[Tailgunner]

Tailgunner, I like your idea too -- cheap = good. But I am not an auction/gutted-cab-buying guy (yet). For one thing, I don't know where to find a cab auction. I live in the Chicago area. Any local suggestions?

Thanks
Eric.

I don't know about Chicago specifically as I live south of the Mason-Dixon line. IIRC, Superauctions holds arcade auctions in Milwaukee, and US amusements holds them in Indianapolis. There may well be something closer, hopefully someone from the area will chime in.

Edit to add: It's not uncommon for someone at the auctions to buy a dead cab for specific parts. If you don't have room for the cab, or a means to get it home, take your tools and strip out what you want. Odds are they'll be somebody there more than willing to take the rest. 

[markrvp]

There's no need to make up a story.  Just order the stick without the thumb buttons.  Order two thumb buttons, drill two holes in the backplate and install them.

[rdagger]

There's no need to make up a story.

[erictrumpet]

Yeah I would put a single thumb button in the DOT location... but I figured, if I was putting in one, why not two? Maybe it's overkill. I guess since I was real close to ordering an 8-way Tron stick with double thumbers, I figured why not get (or make) the same thing, in analog. But now that you mention it, I can think of exactly zero games needing two buttons. But then again, I always play my faves, the classics, and rarely explore the other 3,000 or so games I've never played.

Eric.

[Tailgunner]

There's no need to make up a story.

[rdagger]

Aqua Jack uses a DOT style analog with two thumb buttons. That's where my $10 dollar Happ Analog came from.

Correct me if I'm wrong since I never played Aquajack in the arcade, but judging from the MAME version and KLOV, it appears that Aquajack only requires an 8-way joystick and an analog gas pedal.  Since you have an analog stick from an Aquajack, I guess the game works with either analog or 8-way.  I searched KLOV when I first got my analog stick and I found several 8-way games that used double thumbs, but I didn't find any analog ones.

[erictrumpet]

If a person is to have only one analog flight stick on their CP and it is to be used for both analog and 8-way flight stick games, then 2 thumb buttons is best. That way, the stick would have enough buttons for all the flight stick games, whether analog or 8-way.

Eric.

[Tailgunner]

Correct me if I'm wrong since I never played Aquajack in the arcade, but judging from the MAME version and KLOV, it appears that Aquajack only requires an 8-way joystick and an analog gas pedal.