Author Topic: TV: S-video vs. Component (Read 97811 times)

PaulG · « **Reply #160 on:** June 10, 2004, 06:29:54 pm »

When I received the dongle last Thursday, I immediately fired it up and was able to play at 640*432. This was Catalyst 4.5 and MAME32v.070. I am, however, using Rage3D Tweak utility for overclocking. I see now that it has 640*432 as a defined standard resolution.

I installed Powerstrip for about 10 minutes last Friday and then deleted it. I don't think I'd had it previously installed before (But maybe I had it for 5 minutes and some registry tweaks were left installed.... but I doubt it).

I share this computer system with a nearby desk and use it for gaming. I've recently purchased Star Wars: KOTOR and upon getting to DATTOINE the game was literally unplayable. I googled and saw the game is severely crippled with 4.4, 4.5, 4.6 and DATTOINE in particular is unplayable (Literally jumping all over at about .25 FPS). So I downloaded the best driver 4.2 and that fixed that problem, but I could no longer get 480*432... Even after installing PowerStrip. Maybe it's possible, I just have not been able to figure it out.

Confused, I deleted the drivers, PowerStrip, and Rage3D and installed the 4.6s again. Unless there are after effects of PowerStrip being on my computer, you just need to then install Rage3D, insert the dongle, turn it on in the advanced settings, and not only does 640*432 reappear in Mame32, but it also appears in the ATI quick resolution switcher in the toolbar (Something that was absent in 4.5).

One more observation: While it's true I didn't do any tweaks in PowerStrip (which I installed after the KOTOR fiasco), 640*432 in MAME honestly seemed to have shimmering I didn't notice before. Since deleting and installing only 4.6 and Rage3D, I fired MAME back up and the shimmering wasn't there. Maybe it's just in my head, but for me this seems like the better combination. So no one flame me on that, but for some reason it just seems that way to my eyes.

Edit: I also have things like anti-shimmering(?) checked in the Rage3D settings. Didn't really think this was making any difference (It certainly doesn't do much for web browsing), but maybe this is what makes the difference in MAME. And just for the record, there wasn't a huge difference with PowerStrip, but for some reason my eyes do think it is a subtle difference.

libref · « **Reply #161 on:** June 11, 2004, 04:13:17 pm »

Hi PaulG,

I've just tried the same combination you suggested on a fresh 'test system' running XP, ATI 8500, 4.6s Catalyst and the Rage3D Tweak Utility from www.rage3d.com.

Once the installtion was complete, the lowest resolution I saw was able to get was 640 X 400 from the 'Default Resolutions' tab of the tweak tool. Is it possible to modify the default resolutions in Rage3D tool? Still wondering where the 640 X432 came from?

Any thoughts?

Cheers.

PaulG · « **Reply #162 on:** June 12, 2004, 09:14:46 am »

Thanks to trying to diagnose your problem, I've actually solved the mystery of my ATI toolbar

Here's my deal: With 4.6 and Rage3D installed, 480*432 doesn't appear right away. Until I install the dongle and activate it in the ATI advanced settings tab, it doesn't appear. Once I activate it, however, it appears in the RAGE3D supported resolutions.

Just so I'm not missing any steps, here are the other things I've activated in the RAGE3D settings: DVD - Enable HDTV modes (I've checked it, though my tv isn't HDTV and probably doesn't do anything), and in Driver and Display - Shimmer Fix.

So once the dongle is installed and the 640*432 appears in the supported mode of RAGE3D, I right-click the desktop - Properties - Settings - Advanced - Displays. Here I have the computer monitor on the upper-left, the dongle thing on the upper-right. Inside of both of those boxes there's the "bulls-eye" button and the "2 monitor" button. The default on my setup is the Dongle box has the 2 monitor button as the default. If I hit the "bulls-eye" button in the dongle box, hit apply, enter the dongle settings button, enable custom settings, check custom 480i, apply, close, close, and restart. When I reboot again, 640*400, 640*432, 640*480, and 720*480, all now appear in the ATI Quick Resolution switch in the toolbar. (And I'd never been able to get anything lower than 800*600 to appear in that.)

I realize my button names aren't the proper names, but you should be able to see what I'm talking about. If this doesn't work, I guess it only applies to certain cards:( Let me know if you don't understand directions.

libref · « **Reply #163 on:** June 17, 2004, 12:01:27 am »

Hey PaulG,

I finally did get around to trying your configuration..and you were right!
When I installed Catalyst 4.6 + Rage3D Tweak Utility no 640 X 432 but after installing the dongle...there it is..very cool!

Unfortunately, even with the new driver and tweak utility I was still experiencing major shimmer and had a heck of a time gettting any game to play in 640 X 432 mode. I'm beginning to think my ATI 8500 card is pooched!

It would be great if someone could post a few pics of their component output..

Thanks for all your help PaulG...I may trying borrowing a newer ATI card which uses the DVI dongle instead of the VGA version...anyone willing t lend theirs for testing purposes?

Bear Hugger · « **Reply #164 on:** June 26, 2004, 10:47:42 am »

Has anyone taken screen captures of component video in action, I cant get an idea of what its like

PaulG · « **Reply #165 on:** June 26, 2004, 01:37:41 pm »

One of these days I'm gonna borrow a digital camera to take pictures of my CP (which I think is somewhat unique. Excellent layout for a wide range of the unique old-school games. Though a little unorthodox for hard-core fighter fans.)

I'll take some pictures of MAME with the component. Now sure how it'll turn out. I'll also be unable to compare to s-video (with pictures). The reason I bought the component adaptor (Didn't see this thread until after purchasing) was when adding RAM to my computer, I didn't unplug my s-video cable (Which was snug and really thick and strong) and I ended up stapping off the inards of the s-video output on my video card when I flipped the case on its side (only the wires remained. The black mold was destroyed). So if anyone has suggestions on how to snap pictures for best results, or requests, I'll try and take some within the next week or two.

msandife · « **Reply #166 on:** June 27, 2004, 07:34:32 pm »

Hi everyone. I just set up my 27" Panasonic TV with the ATI 8500 card, ATI component dongle and Powerstip. I set Powerstrip to the "Arcade" setting - 640x432 - and changed the resolution settings on my Mame games to the 640x432 resolutions as well.

The games look amazing and I agree it was all well worth it, but I am also getting major shimmer on Windows and on the mame front-end. I don't really care too too much since the games look so good, but I would be interested to hear if libref is able to clear this issue up. I will probably play around with powerstrip a little more.

Thanks again to everyone for posting and leading me to the component input solution!

emsilva · « **Reply #167 on:** June 29, 2004, 06:33:43 pm »

Hi! Hello everyone, I am new here.

I've read everything until page 3 1/2. I was reading this post and searching ebay, when I found this dude:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3759&item=5104522456&rd=1

Its $58,95. Probably less than what you are going to pay for the 8500 + dongle + shipping of each.

And it can archieve (at least the seller says so) 1024x768!!

Please, let me know if there is something wrong with it.

android · « **Reply #168 on:** June 29, 2004, 09:55:26 pm »

Quote from: emsilva on June 29, 2004, 06:33:43 pm

Hi! Hello everyone, I am new here.

I've read everything until page 3 1/2. I was reading this post and searching ebay, when I found this dude:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3759&item=5104522456&rd=1

Its $58,95. Probably less than what you are going to pay for the 8500 + dongle + shipping of each.

And it can archieve (at least the seller says so) 1024x768!!

Please, let me know if there is something wrong with it.

Nothing wrong with it. The problem is that it doesn't have component video output, which is what this thread is about. However, an interesting feature is that it provides RGB output, which theoretically would allow you to connect it to an arcade monitor.

emsilva · « **Reply #169 on:** June 29, 2004, 10:03:56 pm »

Well...

In my ignorance, I though RGB and COMPOSITE was the same deal.
I dont understand one thing. How can it archieve 1024x768@60Hz if we are talking about a TV? Isnt 60Hz too much for a television?

Me and my ignorance. But dont worry, I am working on it.

Regards,

android · « **Reply #170 on:** June 29, 2004, 11:49:54 pm »

To add to your confusion, there's also component and S-Video, which are different than RGB, VGA and composite

Regarding 1024x768 on a tv. Well, that's the whole point of the device aptly called "scan converter". Basically it blends or averages 4 lines in the 1024x768 frame for each line in a 320x240 frame, which is what a TV understands (actually two interlaced 320x240 images are needed for each TV frame).

emsilva · « **Reply #171 on:** June 30, 2004, 01:00:09 am »

Nice! Great newbie-proof explanation.

I will add this dude to my project then. I want to be able to get 1024/768, so I can play some PC games with hr on the TV as well.
I was going to choose RGB monitor over TV, due to the price, but looks like TV will be the way to go.

Ty folks.

Nuttman · « **Reply #172 on:** June 30, 2004, 10:00:31 am »

Okay, so I'm looking to build my own cabinet and have been following this thread. I'm going to use a TV for the display. Seems like Component is the way to go, but I'm looking for a "simple" solution to give good results. Seems like there is a lot of work and tweaks to get Componet working with video cards (overscanning issues, etc.)

I happened across this 'scan converter' product and am looking for feedback to see if it's a viable solution

http://www.smarthome.com/7743C.html

It seems like it would allow me to use an existing video card I have (rather than buying a TV-out card), and since I have to buy a TV anyway, I would just buy one that has Component in and use the Component out of the converter.

Thoughts or suggestions? Would it be as simple as hooking my video card to this, and this to my TV using Component? Do you think the display would be superior to S-Video from a video card to the TV? What about resolution and refresh rates? See any issues there? Overscanning?

I'm very new to this and, as stated before, am looking for the best but easiest solution.

Thanks.

Thread Killer · « **Reply #173 on:** June 30, 2004, 12:57:19 pm »

After looking over this thread again, it is my understanding that you can't run any modes above 640x480 with the component dongle setup. If this were to be true, what would happen if my cab ran a game like Golden Tee Golf PC, in which the resolution starts at 800x600 regardless if you changed it in a previous instance of the game? Would the system go to a black screen, or would it simulate 800x600 via interlacing or some other technique that I don't understand? Or would something else happen?

android · « **Reply #174 on:** June 30, 2004, 03:28:11 pm »

Quote from: Nuttman on June 30, 2004, 10:00:31 am

Thoughts or suggestions? Would it be as simple as hooking my video card to this, and this to my TV using Component?

It should be that simple. These devices, whether they are for component or s-video tv's are usually plug and play, with no software config on the PC side.

Quote from: Nuttman on June 30, 2004, 10:00:31 am

Do you think the display would be superior to S-Video from a video card to the TV?

Component output is designed to be superior to S-Video as this is how High Definition tv's are connected to HD-compliant devices.

Quote from: Nuttman on June 30, 2004, 10:00:31 am

What about resolution and refresh rates? See any issues there? Overscanning?

Although I'm no expert, all component-compliant devices are standardized in regards to resolution/refresh. The scan converter should be able to take care of all the conversion details.

-- Android

NOTE: Just completed reading the entire thread and looks like somebody else has reviewed this scan converter. Read the review and the follow up comments before you buy.

emsilva · « **Reply #175 on:** June 30, 2004, 11:10:34 pm »

Okay,

This is probably too much, but I need to request:

- Can someone using component PLEASE take a decent picture of the TV displaying a PC game running in a big resolution (800 x 600, 1024x768)?

I dont know anyone who has such connection. My box wont be only mame, I also want to run PC games on it. And I dont want to use a 200 bucks video card in a tv if the tv is going to became the "bottleneck".

If I can not make a TV perform it nicely, I am rather going to a old 20" svga monitor.

Thank you again,

Manny.

somunny · « **Reply #176 on:** July 01, 2004, 01:57:39 pm »

I have a question:

How does the DVI to component dongle compare to the VGA to component dongle? I ask this because I see alot of talk in this thread about the DVI, but very little about the VGA. Are they effectively the same?

Thanks!

Coop

PaulG · « **Reply #177 on:** July 01, 2004, 05:57:55 pm »

Quote from: emsilva on June 30, 2004, 11:10:34 pm

Okay,

This is probably too much, but I need to request:

- Can someone using component PLEASE take a decent picture of the TV displaying a PC game running in a big resolution (800 x 600, 1024x768)?

I dont know anyone who has such connection. My box wont be only mame, I also want to run PC games on it. And I dont want to use a 200 bucks video card in a tv if the tv is going to became the "bottleneck".

If I can not make a TV perform it nicely, I am rather going to a old 20" svga monitor.

Thank you again,

Manny.

Right now I'm really hooked on Star Wars: KOTOR and it's a bit of a pain to switch from driver 4.2 (Which KOTOR is best at, and which the dongle isn't outputting anything at.) That said, to my memory it's not actually like s-video (Which you can output at 800*600 or 1024 *768... albiet with dropped pixels which degrade the picture.) You can set the desktop to 800 or 1024, and it will output the picture to the component, but if you're only displaying this on an analog 480i television, you'll have to cursor scroll the screen to get to the undisplayed portions. Obviously this is unacceptable for gaming. Now if you had an HDTV and had a television with a high-resolution, this isn't a problem, but for analog (unless I'm missing something), you really can't play anything over 640*480 desktop resolution.

msandife · « **Reply #178 on:** July 04, 2004, 08:31:58 pm »

Hi,

Has anyone tried or considered trying AdvanceMAME to get the 640x432 resolution without using Powerstrip or the 3drage utility? There is some mention of custom resolutions on the website, but it is sort of unclear:

http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/readme.html

Thread Killer · « **Reply #179 on:** July 04, 2004, 09:19:33 pm »

Is the display with the dongle at 640x480 as unplayable as everyone is making it out to be, as far as overscan goes? I have a number of non-MAME PC games that I plan to use in my cab that can't be forced into a 640x432 resolution, so I might just stick with composite or s-video.

tisurame · « **Reply #180 on:** July 05, 2004, 07:59:16 pm »

This Radeon 8500 + dongle combo can output to a TV, through this component connection and PowerStrip, very low non-interlaced resolutions like 320x240 or 256x240 ? For the sake of a accuracy emulation.

Anyone could, PLEASE PLEASE, try this ?

PaulG · « **Reply #181 on:** July 07, 2004, 07:33:35 pm »

Freakin' ATI. The new 4.7 drivers finially seem to fix KOTOR (Loaded an old Dattoine file that was previously unplayable on 4.5 and 4.6). But now the 640*432 option disappears with Rage3D. UUGGHH! At least it's something though. 640*400 (slight letterbox) is still better than not being able to output anything (which is what the previous 4.2 yielded).

Edit: To the poster directly above: Only using Rage3D, I set a game in MAME to 320*240 (Hardware stretch enabled) and the output was a small box (320*240) in the center of the screen. Maybe powerstrip is different though.

The reason I'm not a fan of powerstrip is when I install that, I have to uninstall Rage3D or Powerstrip doesn't boot on start-up. And if I don't have Rage3D installed, my monitor calibration (done with monitor software independently) doesn't install (Very odd). And considering my Samsung monitor has lousy default calibration, I've just found life easier by sticking with what works.

tisurame · « **Reply #182 on:** July 07, 2004, 07:54:32 pm »

What about Advance Mame, never tried ? It's the best program to handle the video card to output low-resolutions.

jmet · « **Reply #183 on:** July 14, 2004, 08:21:04 pm »

Read the review of this new S3 video card which has decent performance and built in NATIVE component connections!!!

http://techreport.com/etc/2004q3/deltachrome-s4pro/index.x?pg=1

tep0583 · « **Reply #184 on:** July 16, 2004, 09:34:48 pm »

Quote from: jmet on July 14, 2004, 08:21:04 pm

Read the review of this new S3 video card which has decent performance and built in NATIVE component connections!!!

http://techreport.com/etc/2004q3/deltachrome-s4pro/index.x?pg=1

That is looking awesome! Thanks for posting it. I'm going to see if I can locate one of these, although they might not be out yet.

It sounds like this might be perfect for MAME use.

tep0583 · « **Reply #185 on:** July 16, 2004, 09:40:50 pm »

More information on the S4

http://www.s3graphics.com/feature_def.html

Blast. Doesn't look like its out yet....

PaulG · « **Reply #186 on:** July 22, 2004, 03:32:54 pm »

The concern I would have about that card is the component support. ATI is throwing more resources at this segment and still has some issues. And if you look at those specs in one of the links: It lists component as starting at 480P as the lowest supported spec. It mentions 480i as supported via s-video or composite. I'd be gunshy until certain what exactly is supported at what resolutions.

P.S. I'm not posting any photos. I recently borrowed a decent Canon digital camera, but I really suck at photo taking. It served my purposes well (And I took a couple photos of my CP), but between getting reflections off the television, not really understanding all the options on the camera, and the fact my hands aren't all that steady and even my best snaps could use a tripod, and it's pointless. They'd show nothing other than I suck as a photographer:( If anyone was hoping, sorry:(

Scoobie · « **Reply #187 on:** August 15, 2004, 01:50:37 am »

I have been reading this thread and want to get the ATI HDTV dongle to run component in for my Toshiba 27A34. Then I realized my graphics card is an ATI 9200se!

ATI's website lists the supported cards as the 8500, 9500, 9600, 9700 & 9800. What about my 9200?

Does anyone know if one of ATI's 2 component dongles will work with the 9200se?

If not, what about one of the following items?

http://shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?dept_id=20

Thanks!

nickswanjan · « **Reply #188 on:** September 15, 2004, 10:56:30 am »

1) I read this entire thread, and it has some great information but seems to have died off lately? Is there a differrent location where the component battle is being waged?

2) Has anyone looked at the Daewoo 27" DTQ27U4SC Flat Tube TV that Best Buy has on sale this week for $229? It has component inputs, and the flat tube should make monitor bezels much easier to make and fit....

3) Any more word of reasonably priced video cards that put out component video natively?

Nick

eyal8r · « **Reply #189 on:** December 09, 2004, 07:02:06 am »

So you guys are really pushing this component thing, huh? Seems to me that there's a TON of issues trying to get it to work right- or have you figured it out enough that the rest of us can jump on the wagon too?

Im about to buy a new tv, but need to know how this is all working for you guys. Still all for it? How is the setup? Got it all figured out, or, still trying to resolve issues? Which tv's do you reccommend?
Thanks soo much for all your posts!
D

eyal8r · « **Reply #190 on:** December 09, 2004, 07:04:31 am »

oops- sorry about that- I hit reply only after reading page 2 on this thread! Its 5am, maybe I should get some sleep... lol. I'll go read and post more if I have questions later.
Sorry...
D

eyal8r · « **Reply #191 on:** December 09, 2004, 12:28:16 pm »

ok- so read the complete thread. Everyone who switched to component is THRILLED with it. But- looking at the comparison pics on page 1- honestly, I don't see much difference between Component and S-Video. I know that in person you'll probably notice a huge difference. But- on those pics, I just see the coloring a little bit off. Not sure if it's worth the extra $200+ for a new card, dongle, cables, etc, compared to sticking with S-Video. Any comments on that?
Thanks!
D

eyal8r · « **Reply #192 on:** December 09, 2004, 12:40:14 pm »

ok- here's what I have found (man that search button is handy, isn't it?). If you go with Component, you CANNOT USE the Act-Labs light guns! They are only available in S-Video and Composite, NOT COMPONENT. So- I'll sacrifice a little better color quality to play my gun games...
D

Marky_1979 · « **Reply #193 on:** December 16, 2004, 08:28:49 am »

Sorry but what is component

im really sorry im sure its a stupid question im using a 28" philips tv and want to know the best way to get the best picture

Harry Potter · « **Reply #194 on:** December 18, 2004, 07:23:48 am »

Quote from: Marky_1979 on December 16, 2004, 08:28:49 am

Sorry but what is component im really sorry im sure its a stupid question im using a 28" philips tv and want to know the best way to get the best picture

In order of quality:

Composite Video
An analog video signal in which the luma and chroma components are combined (by frequency multiplexing), along with sync and burst. Also called CVBS. Most televisions and VCRs have composite video connectors, which are usually colored yellow.

S-Video
A video format offering a higher quality signal than composite video, but a lower quality than component video. This mid-level format divides the signal into two channels - luminance and chrominance.

Component Video
A video system containing three separate color component signals, either red/green/blue (RGB) or chroma/color difference (YCbCr, YPbPr, YUV), in analog or digital form.

There is also VGA and DVI but most tellys don't have those plugs.

HEY! I posted in the monster topic. Yey!

Xiaou2 · « **Reply #195 on:** December 19, 2004, 07:56:03 am »

Just so ya know... Ive spent some time taking pics of svideo tv and others. I had noticed that my pics never seemed to look as good as the tv's picture.

I then realized why...

ATI has settings for adjustments of clarity. You can take the jitter away - but you willl get a less sharp picture. Or make it sharp - and you see a bit of jittering... Why? Because ati uses an Interlacing technique for higher detail capability! : )

Interlacing is where 2 pictures are shown alternating swiftly - to make it appear as if they were one shot. Using half of the details in one pic, and half the details in the other frame... its able to make incredibly clear images. Almost as clear as a pc monitor. Its able to display a simulated 1024*768! The more frames used for details- the more the pic will appear to shimmer or jitter a bit.

So - if you try to take a picture of it - your only snapping 1/2 of the details. If you really wanted to see the full details... youd need to somehow set up a perfect slow delay on the camera so that it captured both frames perfectly. I do not think its possible to capture the two at once without some freaky hardware and or software intervention.

So - in responce to the componet -vs- svideo... the pics seen are probably much better than you could imagine.

I can tell you this.... some cheaper tv's svideo and or component arnt as good as others. Ive seen other comparison pics of svid vs component and it was night/day. One thing you get with svideo is a oversaturated red which is hard to swallow. Component dosnt have this problem. Colors are much more true. Also, Details are much clearer - and do not get fuzzed out.

computarmann · « **Reply #196 on:** December 21, 2004, 09:27:30 am »

Although s-video is pretty good 2 noticeable problems are flicker (is'nt this the same as dot crawl) and a little bit of warping that is especially noticeable near the outer borders. How does composite fare with these 2 problems.

Tritoch84 · « **Reply #197 on:** December 25, 2004, 10:26:11 pm »

Quote from: Scoobie on August 15, 2004, 01:50:37 am

I have been reading this thread and want to get the ATI HDTV dongle to run component in for my Toshiba 27A34. Then I realized my graphics card is an ATI 9200se!

ATI's website lists the supported cards as the 8500, 9500, 9600, 9700 & 9800. What about my 9200?

Does anyone know if one of ATI's 2 component dongles will work with the 9200se?

If not, what about one of the following items?

http://shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?dept_id=20

Thanks!

I would like to know this as well! Could someone PLEASE post an answer to this if they know it?

TheRCGuy · « **Reply #198 on:** January 29, 2005, 06:55:24 pm »

So what is the latest and greatest set up for using a 27" TV with Component & S-Video and a computer to run MAME?

Thanks!

MiKman · « **Reply #199 on:** February 25, 2005, 07:49:28 pm »

Quote from: Tritoch84 on December 25, 2004, 10:26:11 pm

Quote from: Scoobie on August 15, 2004, 01:50:37 am
I have been reading this thread and want to get the ATI HDTV dongle to run component in for my Toshiba 27A34.


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