Author Topic: Keeping my cabinet nice and cool (Read 6191 times)

arcadepcnut · « **on:** January 15, 2003, 09:59:58 am »

I recently bought an AMD XP 2200 processor for my arcade machine. They run very very hot. I had a fan that I had bought a long time again. A ball bearing AC 120 volt 120mm fan. I usually run my arcade machine with the pc mounted in the case but with the cover off and it sitting in the bottom of the cabinet. There is no ventilation in my cabinet at all. It is completely sealed. When I was at the arcade auction and walking behind the machines I noticed a few had the same size fan as mine mounted in the bottom area of the cabinet. I assume blowing out.

What is the best way to keep the processor cool but at the same time the cabinet cool. It really defeats the purpose if I keep the computer Ice cool but am actually blowing the hot air out of the case but into the cabinet and there is no where for it to go. So eventually I'll be cooling the processor with hot air after the computer has been running for about an hour.

Should I cut a hole in the top of the cabinet and have the fan blowing out? Hot air rises so this seems to make the most sense. Im looking for some opinions

Im also not sure if it is better to run the computer with the case cover off or on.

Note: I do have a killer heat sink and fan on the amd xp 2200.

darkmanx · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2003, 10:21:06 am »

there are varying opinions about whether or not to keep the case on. i reccomend keeping it on. it keeps more dust out, and its the way it is designed to be run. i keep mine on, but leave the screws out so its not as much of a pain if i need to get at the inside. as for the cooling you are right. hot air should be expelled at the top and cool air drawn in from a low point. simple convection.

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2003, 10:27:56 am »

okay so keep the case on and have a case fan expelling the heat. Also I probably need to pick up another 120mm fan to put at the bottom of the cabinet blowing air in. Thanks for the tip.

mpm32 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2003, 10:40:35 am »

It won't hurt but, a simple hole at the bottom will sufice. The fan at the top blowing out will pull the cool air in from the hole at the bottom on its own.

darkmanx · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2003, 10:57:30 am »

Quote from: mpm32 on January 15, 2003, 10:40:35 am

It won't hurt but, a simple hole at the bottom will sufice. The fan at the top blowing out will pull the cool air in from the hole at the bottom on its own.

yes thats true also. but if you have the money for it the fan will help get the air in quicker. might as well IMO.

eightbit · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2003, 11:00:57 am »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 15, 2003, 10:27:56 am

okay so keep the case on and have a case fan expelling the heat. Also I probably need to pick up another 120mm fan to put at the bottom of the cabinet blowing air in. Thanks for the tip.

Have you checked inside the cab after a few hours of playing on it? If its not noticibly warmer you probably don't have anything to worry about. If you put a fan in it the fan at the bottom would be unneccessary, a hole would suffice. Also most cabinets aren't airtight so you might not even need to cut a hole as long as the air is moving nicely.

Rocky · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2003, 12:10:31 pm »

I'm running an Athlon XP 2000+ in my cabinet. The motherboard is not in a case, just mounted to the side of the cab.

When I first set it up, I left the fan at the back of the cab off. (120V 3" or 4" fan). It's a Q*bert cab and it has vents on the top.

After leaving it on for several hours, the top vents were very noticably warm, almost hot. I opend the back door and it was an oven in there. The paint was almost tacky.

Anyway, I run the fan at the back of the cab now. It blows cool air in and everything has been fine since.

Rocky

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2003, 12:18:21 pm »

I've got a couple conflicting opinions and Im confused.

I have one fan.

Is the optimal position:
A) at the top of the cabinet blowing out with a hole at the bottom of the cabinet
B) at the bottom of the cabinet sucking cool air in with holes at the top for venting
C) buy another fan and have it blowing air in at the bottom and one at the top blowing air out
D) none of the above

This is not a test

Also, those fans are expensive. $30

Brax · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2003, 12:21:23 pm »

Personally, i'd put it in the top blowing out. Hot air rises and you want to get it out of there. A hole in the bottom will allow cooler air to br drawn in.

I have my cocktail set up in this manner and it works fine.

darkmanx · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2003, 12:24:13 pm »

well it can really vary depending on your setup. i would say try with the fan at the top blowing hot air out. and at least some sort of opening lower in the cab. run it for a while and periodically check to see the temp. if its hot, i reccoment another fan. if not then dont bother. however i should add it is winter right now and in the summer this could change alot since.....well its just alot hotter.

elfman12 · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2003, 01:00:44 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 15, 2003, 12:18:21 pm

I've got a couple conflicting opinions and Im confused.

I have one fan.

Is the optimal position:
A) at the top of the cabinet blowing out with a hole at the bottom of the cabinet
B) at the bottom of the cabinet sucking cool air in with holes at the top for venting
C) buy another fan and have it blowing air in at the bottom and one at the top blowing air out
D) none of the above

Also, those fans are expensive. $30

A) - fan up top, cool air pulled in through the bottom.

I have one of the ball bearing fans from Happ in mine, and boy does it suck out the heat. HOWEVER, it's really LOUD! It sounds like a jet when it starts up... I mounted it to a lighted toggle switch, and only kick it on if the cab has been on for a couple of hours.

mpm32 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2003, 03:37:42 pm »

Everyone wants to use the LCD screens in their cabs. How about one hooked up to a temperature sensor that displays the cabs inside temps?

Dr. J · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2003, 03:39:11 pm »

I cut a hole in the lower back of my cabinet. I then ran a tube from that hole to a case fan in the front of my computer. Then I made all the other case fan and the power supply fan blow out. This gives the cpu constant fresh air. As for the air in the cabinet, I have a desktop fan mounted on the bottom that blows the air toward vents on the top of the cabinet. You can check out pics of it all here: My Cab

CM · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2003, 04:26:49 pm »

When in doubt ... strap one of these fans on

cdbrown · « **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:07:09 am »

I'll be having 2 80mm fans sucking in at the bottom and 2 blowing out at the top but that's because I bought some tri-light blue LED fans that I was going to use in the case (out of stock of plain type at the time) and noticed they looked pretty cool. So I'll probably mount them on the sides at the top and bottom which will provide sufficient air flow to keep everything cool. Don't forget that it's not only the cpu that's creating the heat there's also the PSU and of course the monitor plus some others. If your case has fans mounted at the front and back then leave case closed, if not it doesn't make a difference. Just need to make sure there is cool air blowing onto the heatsink as cpu's can get flakey at high temps.

Cheers
-cdbrown

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:52:27 am »

Quote from: CM on January 15, 2003, 04:26:49 pm

When in doubt ... strap one of these fans on

Thats the fan Im using

Except I had mine mounted to the top of the case blowing air down and out the back.

I will mount it at the top blowing out and sucking air in the bottom of the cabinet. I'll take some thermal readings and see whats best.

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #16 on:** January 27, 2003, 10:01:05 am »

you guys rock. A 120mm fan blowing out the top of my cab keeps it nice and cool. The only problem is it is loud and I have to turn the volume up loud to drown it out

eightbit · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2003, 10:21:01 am »

If you slow it down it won't be so loud, I think a variable speed switch would work. You don't need to create a vacumn in the cab you just need to keep air moving.

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2003, 10:46:23 am »

Thats a good Idea. I didnt think of that. Its 120 volt. So I need a varible switch that can handle 120volts right? Im not exactly sure how to go about doing this.

TazMan · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2003, 10:55:26 am »

Eightbit's idea should do the trick - slow it down to quiet it up. A dimmer switch or ceiling fan switch should do the trick

eightbit · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2003, 11:09:04 am »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 27, 2003, 10:46:23 am

Thats a good Idea. I didnt think of that. Its 120 volt. So I need a varible switch that can handle 120volts right? Im not exactly sure how to go about doing this.

A dimmer switch or ceiling fan switch, you should even be able to find something like a extension card with a dimmer switch built in.

RandyT · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2003, 11:21:32 am »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 27, 2003, 10:46:23 am

Thats a good Idea. I didnt think of that. Its 120 volt. So I need a varible switch that can handle 120volts right? Im not exactly sure how to go about doing this.

Try a light dimmer. Not the solid-state ones, but a simple rheostat style. Can't guarantee it will work, but it's probably the best bet.

On a side note, I can't remember seeing a fan in a real arcade cabinet, probably because of the noise. Could you image 30 fans all whirring at the same time in a small room

.

Most cabinets stay pretty cool inside using only convection cooling. For those that don't understand the principle of this, I'll try to explain it.

Hot air rises (obviously) so your cabinet will always be the warmest at the top. Which means the ideal placement for the components you want to stay cool will be at the bottom of the cabinet.

This also means you'll want to put a large vent at the top of the cabinet to let the heat escape. Most of the time in commercial cabinets, these vents are located at the very top portion of the back of the unit. This lets the heat out, but also keeps debris from falling inside, which could happen if the vent was in the top panel.

Now, the convection current is strong enough to bring the hot air to the top of the cabinet, but obviously not strong enough to create a vacuum. This means for proper convection cooling to take place, you need an equally large intake vent in the bottom of the cabinet. This should be placed on the bottom panel somewhere toward the front of the machine to make sure the cool air is drawn past the components you are trying to keep under control. You also need to make sure the cabinet is raised off the floor to allow air to flow underneath the cab. An inch and a half should be plenty if it's clean under there. Placing the intake vent in the very bottom portion of the back panel will work as well.

And if that doesn't work , just leave the back panel off and space it a couple inches from a wall

RandyT

Rocky · « **Reply #22 on:** January 27, 2003, 12:25:20 pm »

Quote

On a side note, I can't remember seeing a fan in a real arcade cabinet, probably because of the noise. Could you image 30 fans all whirring at the same time in a small room .

I don't remember them either, but I was surprised to find one attached to the back of a Zaxxon cabinet I aquired. The cabinet was stripped so I'm not sure what was in it last, but I'm using it now to keep my computer cool.

I like the idea of a variable speed control on it.

Rocky

Smittydc · « **Reply #23 on:** January 27, 2003, 01:55:26 pm »

I left the back off my control panel. Plenty of ventilation that way.

Kitbasher · « **Reply #24 on:** January 27, 2003, 09:58:43 pm »

I have built two of these rheostats for my computers following the instructions here: http://www.bit-tech.net/article/32/ This may be useful for others who want to balance fan speed\performance versus noise.

RandyT · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2003, 02:47:51 am »

Quote from: Kitbasher on January 27, 2003, 09:58:43 pm

I have built two of these rheostats for my computers following the instructions here: http://www.bit-tech.net/article/32/ This may be useful for others who want to balance fan speed\performance versus noise.

A word of caution. That circuit is for 12v DC fans only! But seems like a nice solution for those types of fans.

However, the original poster referred to using a 120v AC fan.

Here is some basic info for anyone interested;

Besides the obvious voltage difference, AC and DC have different requirements as far as speed control goes.

Speed can be varied with both AC and DC motors by simply reducing the amount of voltage they recieve. Success using this method depends greatly on the type of motor (fan) being used as torque is lost and some motors will get pretty upset about not getting the voltage they were designed for. Fans don't have much resistance, so this may work ok.

Proper DC speed controls use pulse-width modulation, which keeps the voltage at the proper level, but sends that voltage in a square wave so it gets it less often. Voltage is output at either 0v or the voltage of the source at regular intervals. This keeps torque levels high and allows variable speed. It also makes sure the motor gets the voltage it needs to operate properly.

Proper AC speed controls are similar in that the frequency is changed from the standard 60hz (50hz Europe), or 60 cycles per second, to whatever speed you want (usually slower, but some expensive motors are rated at higher frequency input). AC differs in that it uses sine waves ( -110v to +110v for U.S. house current) AC motors do not like square waves and therefore different circuitry needs to be employed to vary speed with AC. This is usually more complicated and somewhat expensive.

There, that should be enough to confuse everyone

RandyT

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #26 on:** January 28, 2003, 10:29:04 am »

RandyT:
So you are saying that if I bought a standard household dimmer switch and mounted it in a box inline on the power cord to the fan that it most likely would not work?
thats what Im planning on getting today!

RandyT · « **Reply #27 on:** January 28, 2003, 11:47:42 am »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 28, 2003, 10:29:04 am

RandyT:
So you are saying that if I bought a standard household dimmer switch and mounted it in a box inline on the power cord to the fan that it most likely would not work?
thats what Im planning on getting today!

No, but I am saying that there are a couple varieties of dimmers out there.

There is a standard rheostat kind that is usually the size of an outlet box and has a rotating knob on it. These are the ones I believe you will have the most luck with.

The other ones are usually small in-line boxes with a slider on them. These use a different method which I have doubts about when hooked to a motor. Not to say that these won't work, but I have tried this style with other applications than a standard light bulb, and the results ranged from poor to non-functional.

Good luck and be sure to post your results

RandyT

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #28 on:** January 28, 2003, 06:58:17 pm »

Sad news and Im now $5 poorer. Went to ace hardware and got a dimmer switch and box. Wired it per the simple instructions. I put the box inline a computer power cord. Plugged the cord into the fan and plugged the other end to an outlet. Pushed the switch and turned to the right. Nothing. Kept turning till I reached the far right. The fan then powered up and spun up to full speed. Backed it off to the left just a tad and the fan spun all the way down. Wierd. I also tried on of those inline power switches for lamps, it did not work at all. I it was a last resort. I guess there is no way to not have this fan run at full 1 million rpms

RandyT · « **Reply #29 on:** January 28, 2003, 09:19:28 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 28, 2003, 06:58:17 pm

Sad news and Im now $5 poorer. Went to ace hardware and got a dimmer switch and box. Wired it per the simple instructions. I put the box inline a computer power cord. Plugged the cord into the fan and plugged the other end to an outlet. Pushed the switch and turned to the right. Nothing. Kept turning till I reached the far right. The fan then powered up and spun up to full speed. Backed it off to the left just a tad and the fan spun all the way down. Wierd. I also tried on of those inline power switches for lamps, it did not work at all. I it was a last resort. I guess there is no way to not have this fan run at full 1 million rpms

I had a feeling it might be a crap shoot. Sorry for your loss, but you have saved countless others from the same misfortune.

Seriously though, after I read your last post I checked my ceiling fan, which also has a dimmer attached. The ceiling fan is an AC motor, and seems to be controlled just fine by the dimmer. It's currently rotating at about 20 RPM (very slow).

The conclusion seems to be that you might get lucky or you might not. It will depend on how the fan is built.

One last question though. I'm assuming you still have the packaging for your dimmer (the knob style one). It doesn't say "solid-state" on it anywhere, does it?

Thanks for posting your results.

RandyT

spidermonkey · « **Reply #30 on:** January 28, 2003, 09:56:15 pm »

Radioshack has some nice dc fans which are MUCH quieter then ac fans. I have one pulling air in at the bottom and another pulling air in at the top. No rheostat. both fans are running full speed and because they have dc moters they are qqquuuiiieeettt. They run off a Happ 110 watt power supply which also powers many other things in my cabinet as well.

Chris · « **Reply #31 on:** January 29, 2003, 11:19:20 am »

I just put a regular computer case fan at the back of my cabinet, just below the back door panel, and hooked it up via a 12V drive connector. The cabinet also has vents in the top and bottom, and the CPU has a nice heatsink with Arctic Silver thermal compound. I get enough airflow this way for the cabinet to stay cool. There are tons of inexpensive PC cooling solutions that can be easily applied to a cabinet; look at any of the overclocking sites for cooling strategies.

--Chris

arcadepcnut · « **Reply #32 on:** January 29, 2003, 12:41:18 pm »

I may have to go with a dc fan. It moves nowhere near as much air and is nowhere near as robust as my as fan is.

Here is the spec on the switch I used that did not work.

ACE brand rotary turn on/off dimmer

600w-120v ac

It says reductor on the package. the instructions also say use only for incandesent lighting. Do not use for motor driven appliances/florescent lighting etc etc....
However all the dimmers said this. Even the 8.99 one. I bought the middle of the road $4.99 dimmer.

im thinking the guy that said to leave the back off the machine is the smartest suggestion. Any bad effects of doing this other than dust?
I'll probably leave the back off and I'll put in a 120mm dc fan since the hole is cut already...but I'll have to buy the fan. The ac one in the top of the cabinet with the speakers in the top just drowns out the sound and I have to have the cabinet so loud when I play to be able to hear. Then the sound travels out of my arcade all the way up the stairs and then into the living room where my wife trying to watch tv gets pissed

RandyT · « **Reply #33 on:** January 29, 2003, 12:57:41 pm »

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 29, 2003, 12:41:18 pm

IHere is the spec on the switch I used that did not work.

ACE brand rotary turn on/off dimmer

600w-120v ac

It says reductor on the package. the instructions also say use only for incandesent lighting. Do not use for motor driven appliances/florescent lighting etc etc....
However all the dimmers said this. Even the 8.99 one. I bought the middle of the road $4.99 dimmer.

I think you might have to find a different store

The following is taken from this site:

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/lights/lightdimmer.html

Dimming electric motors
Typical dimmer packs will supply power to motors and make them run, but the dimmers aren't designed for it. Some dimmers can be damaged by connecting inductive loads to them. And when the triac fails half-wave it takes the motor out too. A good idea to protect motor failures is to use a fuse sized for the motor load in series with the motor. This fuse will propably burn before motor is damaged if it is sized correctly.

Light dimmers designed for inductive loads work quite well with universal" or AC/DC type motors. Typically, these have brushes and are used in electric drills, vacuum cleaners, electric lawn edgers etc. With this kind of motors a proper dimmer works well.

The motors used in electronics fans are quite likely induction motor which are not very well controllable. Those motors in most fans are square-law devices, most of the speed control will be at the end of the dial but that would be true with any control. The "dimmers" designed for ceiling fan speed control work quite well and also some normal light dimmers designed for inductive loads.

If the dimmer approach not satisfactry, then remeber that electric motors are usually is best controlled by a small variac, tapped ransformer, rheostat, series light bulbs, etc. which do not mess up the sinusoidal waveform. Even this method does not help in controlling a syncronous motor, which always tries to rotate at the same speed suncronous to mains power.

Me thinks you got a solid-state one.

Look for one that specifically says it will control a ceiling fan and if that doesn't works, chuck the fan.

RandyT

eightbit · « **Reply #34 on:** January 29, 2003, 01:18:16 pm »

"A happy wife is a happy life!" Learn it, live by it...

Quote from: arcadepcnut on January 29, 2003, 12:41:18 pm

I may have to go with a dc fan. It moves nowhere near as much air and is nowhere near as robust as my as fan is.

Here is the spec on the switch I used that did not work.

ACE brand rotary turn on/off dimmer

600w-120v ac

It says reductor on the package. the instructions also say use only for incandesent lighting. Do not use for motor driven appliances/florescent lighting etc etc....
However all the dimmers said this. Even the 8.99 one. I bought the middle of the road $4.99 dimmer.

im thinking the guy that said to leave the back off the machine is the smartest suggestion. Any bad effects of doing this other than dust?
I'll probably leave the back off and I'll put in a 120mm dc fan since the hole is cut already...but I'll have to buy the fan. The ac one in the top of the cabinet with the speakers in the top just drowns out the sound and I have to have the cabinet so loud when I play to be able to hear. Then the sound travels out of my arcade all the way up the stairs and then into the living room where my wife trying to watch tv gets pissed

You could control your current fan with a thermostat then it will only be loud when the cab is hot. Ok, thats not a good idea...

This is kind of cool, it adjusts its speed based on temperature. All my new servers do this. It does require you run it off 12v though. http://www.aapspower.com/ther80varbal.html

Heres some more 12v fans that are quieter- http://www.aapspower.com/casefans.html


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