KB32

[Raven..]

I know this is not a new subject by any means.  I jsut wanted to sya that I am actually pleased with my KB32!  I finally got around to wiring it up and it works great with no ghosting.  Of course I have no admin keys set up, but I really don't need them.  Anyway, these things have gotten a pretty bum rap around here and I wanted to offer a little positive note. 

[Tiger-Heli]

Are you sure there's no ghosting?  (In other words, can you run ghostkey and press three of the sequential inputs (looking at the connector) and verify the fourth does not also display.).

I'm just asking b/c the KB16 that I tried was terrible in this regard.  Maybe they added diodes on the PCB???

NOTE:  If you are using every other input you shouldn't have problems, but sequential ones usually did . . .

[SpeedyR]

I've been curious about them as well. I had been thinking about building a dedicated "stargate" CP and figured that it would be a cheap/easy way to make a specific CP that didn't need a lot of extra features...

not sure what route I would go but figured it's an option to consider. I've got a minipac on the main CP I'm playing with and it's excellent but seems to be overkill for what I want to do next. I just want a replica of the Stargate/Defender CP so I can recreate the feel of the play...

any other suggestions or options?

Jeff

[NoOne=NBA=]

Unless you get a real good deal on it ($10 MAX on the 32 input version), you'd be ALOT better off with a Keywiz Eco.
You get twice the inputs (counting the shift capabilities), no wiring hassles, and no last minute workarounds for faults with the intial design.
You may not NEED all of the features it has for the current project, but they will be there if you change your mind down the road.


For the record, the TOKN's didn't get a bum rap.
As designed they were absolutely useless for anything other than a 1-stick/2-button panel.

The guy selling them came in, lied about them, and claimed there were no problems with them when questioned.
When it was pointed out that there WERE problems found with them during independent testing, he lied some more, claimed WE were lying about his product, and then tried to get the threads containing the TRUTH about his encoders deleted from the forum.
When that didn't work, he used the suggestions here to fix some of the problems that his encoder "didn't" have, and is now claiming they work fine.

They may work, but they still have ALOT of shortcomings when compared to an I-pac or KeyWiz however.
If you want to run a different app, that doesn't allow you to reprogram the keys within the application, you have to hook a keyboard to the TOKN, and then program each button individually for the new app--using the blinking LED on the circuit board as your only interface.

I'll stick to the graphical programming utilities, and hotswap sets, that come with the I-pac and KeyWiz.
You can swap between full sets of inputs in seconds with both of them.
They were designed to allow full set keymashing, and their designers have been very upfront with the entire community.

The advice, support, and help that Randy and Andy have given this community has been tremendous, and I personally would have a hard time supporting the guy that came behind them, and tried to put one over on us, with only his own gain in mind.

[Raven..]

All valid points!  Actually I DID get it cheap....like $12.50 shipped off of eBay.  Worth what I paid for it, for sure.  Normally I use Jpacs/Ipacs, but I had to try this one for the price.   So far it is working fine for me.

I have not used a Keywiz yet, but that is what I am going to buy next.  I'm not interested in the shift functions though.  All I need is a normal 6 or 7 button per player layout (with coin, etc.)

[Tiger-Heli]

All valid points!  Actually I DID get it cheap....like $12.50 shipped off of eBay.  Worth what I paid for it, for sure.  Normally I use Jpacs/Ipacs, but I had to try this one for the price.   So far it is working fine for me.

I have not used a Keywiz yet, but that is what I am going to buy next.  I'm not interested in the shift functions though.  All I need is a normal 6 or 7 button per player layout (with coin, etc.)

Again, when you say there is no ghosting, you mean when you wired it up using alternating inputs, or when you used diodes, correct (I believe TOKN now recommends this method).

The reason I ask so much is b/c I have two web pages saying that the TOKN will produce ghosting if adjacent inputs are used, and I need to revise (or at least add a disclaimer) if that statement is no longer true.

My TOKN pages:
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/tokn16/index.htm
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/tokn32/index.htm

[Havok]

Unless you get a real good deal on it ($10 MAX on the 32 input version), you'd be ALOT better off with a Keywiz Eco.
You get twice the inputs (counting the shift capabilities), no wiring hassles, and no last minute workarounds for faults with the intial design.
You may not NEED all of the features it has for the current project, but they will be there if you change your mind down the road.


For the record, the TOKN's didn't get a bum rap.
As designed they were absolutely useless for anything other than a 1-stick/2-button panel.

The guy selling them came in, lied about them, and claimed there were no problems with them when questioned.
When it was pointed out that there WERE problems found with them during independent testing, he lied some more, claimed WE were lying about his product, and then tried to get the threads containing the TRUTH about his encoders deleted from the forum.
When that didn't work, he used the suggestions here to fix some of the problems that his encoder "didn't" have, and is now claiming they work fine.

They may work, but they still have ALOT of shortcomings when compared to an I-pac or KeyWiz however.
If you want to run a different app, that doesn't allow you to reprogram the keys within the application, you have to hook a keyboard to the TOKN, and then program each button individually for the new app--using the blinking LED on the circuit board as your only interface.

I'll stick to the graphical programming utilities, and hotswap sets, that come with the I-pac and KeyWiz.
You can swap between full sets of inputs in seconds with both of them.
They were designed to allow full set keymashing, and their designers have been very upfront with the entire community.

The advice, support, and help that Randy and Andy have given this community has been tremendous, and I personally would have a hard time supporting the guy that came behind them, and tried to put one over on us, with only his own gain in mind.

TOKN's not a subsidiary of Ultracade, by any chance???

[Hoopz]

TOKN's not a subsidiary of Ultracade, by any chance???

LOL.

[Tiger-Heli]

But then again, Tiger-Heli is RandyT according to MattP so anything is possible....    :-)

Good point.  I've also been told that using jumpers instead of connecting a switch was non-standard testing methodology, and been referred to as something like Heli-Homo in TOKN's E-bay advertisements.  A status few others can claim!!! (not that they'd want to  )

not that there's anything wrong with that . . . - Stingray

[Raven..]

All valid points!

[Tiger-Heli]

Okay, everyone listen carefully to my responses here, because they will tell you a lot about the product (and keyboard input devices in general).

I've been play-testing it since I wired it up (did not use the diode pack included), and so far there is still no problem.

Simply play-testing it is unlikely to reveal a problem.  You have to have a certain combination of three keys pressed to generate a fourth ghost key.  And that isn't nearly as much of a problem as key blocking.  Let's say that you press Player 1 buttons 1, 2, and 3 and the unit generates a "ghost" Y keypress.  But Y isn't used in your emulator. . . Will you ever notice it? No!  Is the encoder working the way you would want it to? No!

I used the recommended wiring schematic for a 2-player, 6-button layout that TOKNMedia emailed to me.

I haven't seen their schematic, but if it's properly laid out, I'm not at all surprised that it is working.  The KB16 encoder that I tested would support 8 simultaneous inputs IF you picked alternating connections.  Assuming the KB32 is the same, we have 16 available simultaneous inputs, and since a joystick can't be up and down at the same time, we allow them to ghost, giving us two more inputs per joystick, or 20 inputs, or a 2-player, 6-button layout.  Of course you could also do this with most keyboard hacks. .  .

Nothing yet has convinced me to change my opinion of it. . .

I'll keep checking it out though, just to see what happens.

Please do.  I think it will work fine until you add coin and start buttons to the mix, and even then, it would only occasionally have problems.

All of that said, I would still buy another if I could get it this cheap again.  (For full-price though, I doubt it.)

Won't arque too much with you on that either.  $12.50 shipped for essentially a one-time programmable 20 action key plus 12 ghosting key encoder isn't a bad deal.  It's the website adds for $29.95 plus shipping for the same encoder compared to $23 plus shipping for a KeyWiz Eco no-solder with 32 non-ghosting input and full configuration software that I have a problem with.

[CheffoJeffo]

All of that said, I would still buy another if I could get it this cheap again.  (For full-price though, I doubt it.)

I notice that his new auctions have reserves ... guess he got tired of letting them go cheap.

Cheers.

[Raven..]

I notice that his new auctions have reserves ... guess he got tired of letting them go cheap.

Cheers.

Heh, yeah I noticed that too.

[Tiger-Heli]

Tiger-Heli:  I do have start buttons wired up, but not coin buttons yet (I ran out of buttons in my spare parts box).  Maybe I'm not dexterous enough to cause ghosting.    I'll let a kid try it out....they can mash every button at the same time somehow!

Like I said, ghosting can only happen when you have 3 buttons pressed at the same time, and if the encoder sends a ghosted start button for a player that either is currently playing or has no credits, how would you know???

BTW, if you get curious or ambitious, check my page on the KB32 above and run the tests I recommend, I'd be interested to know if what I wrote was accurate.

[skippy0420]

TOKN KB32

Resurrecting and older thread. I have been discussing my KB32 with Tiger-heli in PM's and it seems that I have been fortunate enough to get one of the newer boards. I am reposting the picture of the board and you will see that this is the '32L' version. The diodes are already on the board.

With a little help form Tiger-Heli I mapped out the matrix for both players but have yet to see if I will have any ghosting issues. The thought was that I should not with the diodes already in place. I have read allot of hard knocks on this product but from my research it looks as if these concerns were trying to be addressed in this unit. I almost wish I had found a few more for the price I got it for well over a year ago!

Input           P2      P1
Joy Up         R      Up Arrow
Joy Down     F      Down Arrow
Joy Left       D      Left Arrow
Joy Rt.        G      Right Arrow
Button 1      A      Lt Ctrl
Button 2      S      Lt Alt
Button 3      Q      Space
Button 4      W      Lt Shift
Button 5      O      Z
Button 6      K      X
Button 7   Enter   C
Button 8   Tab      V
Button 9      T      B
Start           2      1
Coin            6      5
Esc/Pause   Esc   P(pause)
LED                  

[Tiger-Heli]

I'll chime in here as well ...

There were four issues with the original TOKN's - one of which seems to have been addressed.

First was the issue of ghosting - which I will wait for skippy0420's results, but it seems to be taken care of.

The other is the issue of programmability via software.

Personally, I only use two emulators that would require a different codeset - Train Simulator and Nebula Model 2.  And for Model 2, I use a workaround (use the top row of buttons instead of the bottom ones), so that isn't an issue either.

It is a drawback to the encoder, but not as huge as people make it out to be.

Perfomance is likely not as good (response time) as a KeyWiz (Gp-Wiz) or I-Pac.

There is no Shift Key/Shazaaam! Key function.

Essentially, I look at the KB16 as essentially a keyboard hack, with the advantage of being able to select what keys are used (and the disadvantage that you only have 16 inputs where a hack would have all 104 with most only useable as admin keys).  The KB32 would be somewhere between a KeyWiz Eco/I-PAC and a keyboard hack.