Building cabinets to sell.

[Mr. Bubblehead]

OK, so far I have built 2 cabinets, an upright and a cocktail.  I have had several friends over and so far every one of them has told me the same thing - "dude, this is awesome, you need to sell these!"

My question is this...should I do this?  I have looked online (ebay) and there are either really expensive emulator cabs, plans for cabs, and parts.  Obvioulsy most of the members of this board would not be my target audience, since this site is all about DIY.  But you all have the inside knowledge of what goes into a cabinet, in time, materials, and technical expertise.  Have any of you had similar reactions from your peers?  I should mention that I am in my thirties as are my group of friends, so perhaps since we grew up in the "golden age" of the arcade this is clouding my judgement?

Currently I do not see any entry-level (read: under a grand) turnkey systems being offered.  This would most likely be the void I would attempt to fill.  Although I am relatively new to the hobby, I have plenty of experience with building stuff, and I have both the time and tools to pursue this.  Please understand that by offering a low-cost product, good-quality I do not want to make this a full-time business nor do I want to exploit the hobby.  I would like everyone's honest opinion on this matter.

I should also mention, before someone else brings it up, the legality issue.  I will *NOT* be providing illegal ROMs, software, nor will I be using any trademarked names or logos.

[eggedd2k]

if your cabs are of good enough quality mate i'd deffinitely sell some - you've got nothing to lose.

[Skadar]

A big part of the reason why I am now building my own cabinet is because I couldn't find anything affordable that could do everything that I wanted.  A lot of what I wanted is flexibility, and flexibility is expensive.

At first I was thinking that it would be pretty difficult to create a nice upright with all the innards for under $1000, but I suppose if you tossed flexibility out the window and focused on making a cabinet worthy of playing... say... 100 classic games, it could easily be done.

You should go for it.  The only things I would be worried about are shipping and support. 

[RayB]

Search this board. THere's been a few debates about this.  Some arguments range between "it's not worth it once you add up all the labor", to "it's not worth it due to the headaches of dealing with customer service".

That's the big one there. The problem with selling to the public is that they will expect warranties. Will your wiring be inspected and certified? If a part catches fire and burns the house down, will you have liability insurance to cover it? What happens if something breaks 2 months after sale and the buyer is so clueless they wouldn't even know how to fix a broken wire? They will call you and expect it fixed for free.

What about issues of software licenses. Will you be able to get permission to distribute MAME and other software with the machine? If not, what happens? Most people only know how to surf the internet and check email. They won't be able to install emulators and roms.

etc, etc...

[DreamArcades]

Obviously I have a vested interest in turning any new low cost arcade builders away from the idea.

But I want to point out two things. First, there are a couple companies selling low cost arcades on eBay, Dream Arcades being one of them.

Second, it

[Pik4chu]

Obviously I have a vested interest in turning any new low cost arcade builders away from the idea.

But I want to point out two things. First, there are a couple companies selling low cost arcades on eBay, Dream Arcades being one of them.

Second, it

[PedroSilva]

Anybody ever think about selling cabs without the PC or console?

Type of:
Just plug to your PC (X-Box, PS, etc), map the controls and play ...

That way, you can use whatever you like and won't have something dedicated.

[Pik4chu]

If you want to be successul and do the work yourself, I'd shoot for high quality and high profit margin.

For example, how much would you pay for Evil Kenevil's blue neon glowing cabinet?

[AceTKK]

The quickest and more sure-fire way to suck the fun out of any hobby is to turn it into a business.  If your friends want a cab of their own, point them towards Saint's book and offer to help them out.  If your friends' friends want a cab, offer to sell them some detailed plans and instructions.  Beyond that, I wouldn't mess with it. 

-Ace-

[sportswizdan]

Please look at my post in this forum from September 5,2005
Thanks, Dan

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=42643.msg392752#msg392752

[paigeoliver]

It isn't worth it.

I used to do lots of Mame conversions, sold them (and traded them) for prices ranging from $400 to around $1000.

A "new" scratchbuilt cabinet doesn't sell for any more than a used one. I learned that after scratchbuilding a few of them. I got the same money for the "new" ones as I did for the used ones. Sure you can enter the "high end" market for $2000+ cabinets, but realize that you have over 100 competitors.

I stopped doing them, once I started getting under $600 for 21" cabinets at auction. After auction fees I would get $500 of that. They cost me $350 to make, they take 10 to 20 hours, and I still have tools, fuel, and 6 hours of babysitting the machine at the auction to deal with. I'd make more money at Happy Burger, so I don't do them anymore.

Or, you can sell them to individuals, and skip the auctions, but then you get tech support questions. I still get questions on machines I sold 3 and 4 years ago. Thank goodness that none of them have actually broken down.

[CheffoJeffo]

I have had several friends over and so far every one of them has told me the same thing - "dude, this is awesome, you need to sell these!"

My question is this...should I do this? 

It depends ... are any of these friends willing to pay you to build a cabinet ?

If not, then no.

I think we've all gotten the "you gotta sell these" / "I would so buy one of these" reactions, but rarely do any of our friends actually pay us to build for them. Occasionally, they will build and we will help, but that is not a solid business model.

When asked by a gawker about costs, I typically explain that the cheapest method is to pick up a working JAMMA cabinet at auction for $125-$250. Then, add a computer with JPac and ArcadeVGA (obviously, there are cheaper options here, but ...) and you're looking at real money with no bells and whistles. As Paige says, you'ld make more money at HappyBurger.

Which leaves the high-end. There is at least one member here who has built BEEYOOTIPHUL cabinets for other people. I have no idea if it is a money-making venture for him.

Cheers.

[Crazy Cooter]

Not worth it.

[pgifford]

How do you make a small fortune selling cabinets?

First, start with a large fortune...

[Lilwolf]

Dont' expect it to be a good money maker.  You could make more money working at mcdonalds.

but there are some advantages....

1) If you loved building your cab more the playing on it... then its great no matter what!  (come on... lots of you have spent more time building then playing... fess up)

2) You can deduct ALL your own cabinets in your taxes!  REALLY Mr taxman... I had to purchase this starwars controller to see if it would work into my design for customers... And the super wide lcd screen that covers my whole marquee that cost 1k... you never know who would want it!  And sure I had to build a from scratch pinball cab with huge LCDs to see if there is a market to go after!

3) You might make some money... but you will probably make a lot of friends who love arcades.

4) Making something thats nice and people appreciate is always a good thing!  Your helping the world be a better place!

But all in all... #2 is really the best part!  One of the reasons I wanted to start professionally selling my hotswap adapters!  (I really need one of each major arcade cabinets products to make sure they hotswap properly.... and I test them on my home machine of course!)

[menace]

I have built and sold 3 machines now--the first one was cause it was my first one, learned some lessons and wanted to implement them into my second (which I still have)  My second sale one was built for friends who absolutley had to have one and since Ienjoyed building it, it was a good little project.  The third one (just about to sell) was a previously mamed neo-geo that was unmamed and sold empty.  I converted it back and voila. 

If you are in it as a business, its hard to justify the numbers--but if this is your hobby then why not recoup some out of pocket costs and enjoy the challenge.

As far as support goes--if its friends, they get support till i die (more people that look out for me the better ) but unknowns get 3 months fix or replace--if i can't fix it I'll replace it.  This does not include deliberate damage--most arcade parts are pretty hardy so this hasn't bit me in the butt.

[Mr. Bubblehead]

Some very good input here - thanks, I really appreciate it!

I have built and sold 3 machines now--the first one was cause it was my first one, learned some lessons and wanted to implement them into my second (which I still have)  My second sale one was built for friends who absolutley had to have one and since Ienjoyed building it, it was a good little project.  The third one (just about to sell) was a previously mamed neo-geo that was unmamed and sold empty.  I converted it back and voila. 

If you are in it as a business, its hard to justify the numbers--but if this is your hobby then why not recoup some out of pocket costs and enjoy the challenge.

As far as support goes--if its friends, they get support till i die (more people that look out for me the better ) but unknowns get 3 months fix or replace--if i can't fix it I'll replace it.  This does not include deliberate damage--most arcade parts are pretty hardy so this hasn't bit me in the butt.

This is about the extent of cabinet building I would like to do.  I've already committed to a few for friends and family, and I may build one here and there and put it up on ebay.  I definately do not want to turn this into a full-time business; sorry if I implied that earlier.  I just really enjoy building stuff, and I would like to build cabs and pick up a little extra cash to reinvest back in to the hobby, that's all.  I think for now I will post in the for sale forum and offer my services.

sportswizdan, I sent you a PM.  I look forward to hearing from you.

[RayB]

One more word of caution. ALWAYS mention prices right away. You will ALWAYS have people saying "oh cool I want one!", but you shouldn't assume that means they would actually pay what it costs for one. I have a friend who wants one. Then goes and tells me his budget is $200.

[brain21]

You might want to consider a couple of options:

Build a couple (decide if you want empty cabs, or if you want to put a PC and some sort of standard controls in it or whatever).  Once you have a couple built, try and sell them locally.  You can either do eBay (Local pickup only), or maybe advertise thru Craig's List, or some other classifieds.  Put up a website with some pics.  Nothing fancy.  Go to an arcade, or a place like Dave & Buster's and talk to some customers.  See if they would be interested in buying one of your cabs (just don't be obvious about it or they might kick you out for soliciting).  Bring pics & prices w/ you.

Anyway, the point is to build a couple and sell them locally to see if you can even sell them, and how much people are willing to pay for them.  Maybe have 2 prices:

1 for an empty cab & empty control panel
1 for a cab plus control panel (w/ buttons & sticks) & maybe a cheap PC & monitor.  A "barebones" cab, so to speak.  Put PC-Dos on it (it's free) and maybe load up ArcadeOS, and leave the ROMs to them to get (or whatever).

See what kind of bites you get.

If you can sell them pretty easily and make a good enough profit, maybe you can take some custom orders (different control panel options/colors, etc.)

This way you can see how much labor is involved vs the profit, and you really have a minimal investment in money & time compared to trying to go national immediately.

If you have easy access to CNC machines, then making cabs & panels is a breeze, and you can duplicate stuff perfectly every time.  If not you gotta do it by hand and that's a lot of labor.

A friend of mine was interested in this as well.  I told him that I thought that the way to go was to make a port-a-mame.  Build a control panel & very deep box.  Mount a motherboard (mini-itx, or just a really small, 2 slot ATX MB) inside the control panel box.  Use a cheap video card that has s-video out (Xpert@play 98 is one).  Run PC-dos & possibly arcadeOS.  set everything up on the box (PC-wise) the way you want it (minus the roms) and ghost image the hard drive.  This cuts down the install times, etc.  You could also install Linux on it and run the mame client for linux if you were so inclined (and your customers are a little familiar w/ Linux - most people will just power it off w/o shutting it down properly which can lead to more problems in *nix than in windows)

See if you can get $500 for it.  This thing would be portable, and can hook up to both a TV and/or a VGA monitor.  They can put it on the floor in front of the TV like you would an Xbox.  The price difference is the fact that it is also a PC.  You could put all sorts of additional features on there like some sort of an arcade jukebox and they customer can use the ethernet port from the MB (that you mounted into the box w/ easy access to the RJ-45 plug), and connect it to a media server, or whatever.  If you have a CD-Rom drive installed (reccomended) then they can pop in a CD or an MP3 loaded CD & play it (speakers sold extra).

It's pricey, but it can do more than just MAME, AND it's portable!  They can take it over to a friend's house, which you can't do w/ a MAME cab!

Not only that, with other emulators, they can play Atari 2600 games, NES, SNES, N64, Sega Genesis, etc., etc. all on the same device.

This may all seem obvious to us, but to those who know nothing about MAME and the other emulators out there, they would simply freak at seeing something like this!  Think about it.  You've never heard of MAME, or knew that there were emulators out there.  Then someone shows you this box that looks like an arcade control panel.  They hook it up, and not only can it play all of those classic games that you remember, but it can play NES games, Atari games, everything.  I know if I saw one I would freak out!  $500 may be a lot, but when you sell it on the fact that it is also a computer that can do other stuff, the cost does not seem like so much.  If I knew nothing about MAME and someone showed me this I would probably start saving my pennies immediately for it!

I actually plan on building one like this myself (for mayself) at some point.  In the meantime, I have 2 other plans that I am going to be working on first!  When I finally make one (whenever that is) I hope to be able to build a 2nd one as cheaply as possible so I can give it to my cousin's kids for X-Mas (not this coming, but the one after).  They are 9,7, & 5.  Perfect age to play this stuff, though I do imagine my cousin playing it more than his kids!  :-)

Brain21

[Pik4chu]

just want to add you can get mini-itx boards that have s-video on them. (Im using one for my xbox project)

[Wade]

I would definitely suggest selling them totally complete and set up, with MAME, ROMS, and a nice frontend.  I also recommend setting them up with only the games that really work correctly with the controls, even if that means limiting the game list severely.  I think it is better to have fewer games which play correctly, than have 3000 games and 95% of them don't play correctly.

Wade

[paigeoliver]

I would definitely suggest selling them totally complete and set up, with MAME, ROMS, and a nice frontend.  I also recommend setting them up with only the games that really work correctly with the controls, even if that means limiting the game list severely.  I think it is better to have fewer games which play correctly, than have 3000 games and 95% of them don't play correctly.

Wade

Tell me about it, I watched one seller buy his Dig Dug mame back at auction multiple times.

All 3000 games installed, controls consisted of a 4-way joystick and one button.

[Level42]

Obviously I have a vested interest in turning any new low cost arcade builders away from the idea.

But I want to point out two things. First, there are a couple companies selling low cost arcades on eBay, Dream Arcades being one of them.

Second, it

[Nannuu]

Yeah it's worth it if you agree on price beforehand.  I've built quite a few cabinets for people.  It's nice to use my hobby to pay for new tools, parts for my own cabinet and college fund for my daughters.  If you don't build it they'll probably find a cabinet somewhere else anyway.  But you can get burnt out building after a few.  I wouldn't treat it as a business, it takes the fun out of it that way.  It's also a good way to test new setups to see if you'd like it more for yourself as well.

[paigeoliver]

If you REALLY want to do it for actual money, then you can skip the whole "building" part and just order a container of Candy cabs from Asia and drop in computers with arcadeVGA.

[GameOver]

..just order a container of Candy cabs from Asia...

Bleck....IMO those are ugly!

Another idea would be to build a nice one, and convince local businesses to leave it on display.  Maybe like home theater stores or something.  When people inquire, the proprieter would give them your card, or even a brochure you leave with them.  That way you have little invested getting the word out, yet still have decent exposure.

[brain21]

Another idea would be to build a nice one, and convince local businesses to leave it on display.  Maybe like home theater stores or something.  When people inquire, the proprieter would give them your card, or even a brochure you leave with them.  That way you have little invested getting the word out, yet still have decent exposure.

Wow, I think that that is a great idea.  At a Home Theater store you are directly hitting your target market.  People with lots of disposable income, people with a media or HT room.  Probably a very large % of them have no clue what mame is.

On one hand most HT stores (or any store) would be averse to having some individual put something like that in there, what with the salesman and the business owner not getting commissions on it, etc.  However, I would be willing to bet that the salesman would be willing to have it in there in this case.  Not a TON of traffic in a HT store (as opposed to say a Best Buy store), which means the salesman may have a lot of downtime, and I bet they would LOVE to have this as a free diversion to them.  They would probably love it enough to not care about getting comission or anything since they really are not selling it.  To them, it takes up a small amount of floor space, and provides them with a lot of entertainment.  You might even get some of the salesman & store owner as customers!

My suggestion would be this:  At least at first, build a really nice cocktail table and put it in there.  Some people building a high-end HT room might not want some big lurking arcade machine in their HT room, but an inconspicuous cocktail table is comepletely different.  Not only that, but I think it might be easier to build (I don't really know personally), and CERTAINLY easier to move around!

Instead of a business card, I would put a brochure there.  Simple 2-sided piece of paper folded in 3rds with pics of full uprights, cocktail tables, and a list of options.  An inportant option to list would probably be finishes - iow, fake wood laminate, black painted, custom painted, etc. - people will really like a cocktail table that can fit in with their current decor.  If they spend $50k making their HT room look like an egyptian tomb, they probably wont want a fake wood grain CT.  But if you can custom paint it to look like sand, and maybe even apply a KingTut Mask sideart to it, it would fit into their decor and they would definitely have something that NO ONE else would have.  Many of these people have $$$ so be sure to charge a std price for a black CT, and a higher price for custom finishes, artwork, etc.

The cool thing about this is that if you get custom finish orders, then you probably wont' get burnt out on making them as quickly as it will also be a creative outlet!

Great idea GameOver!  Shoot, if I had the time & the skills and the motivation I would try to do the same thing!

Brain21

[picasso]

If I were going to do it I would target Lawyers and Dr's.   They usally have lots of disposable income and nice homes to put the cabinets in.  You would be suprised how many people would want a arcade machine but don't really care to build it themselves.  People don't even think about them till they see one and then their head really starts to turn and they all want one.  I would do the high end thing and sell them for around $3000.   I am willing to bet you could even buy your cab, have slikstick make your controller put a decent PC in there w/speakers for around $2000 to $2200.  Use Arcade VGA, and a nice 27 inch arcade monitor and your set.

One thing I have wondered.  I know its illegal to sell w/MAME and ROMS.  What if you sold just the cab and then had someone (a friend) come out and install the emulator and ROMS for free?   Would that not get around the limitations???

                         Paul

              Paul

[paigeoliver]

If you aren't selling them set up with games then you lose your business to the 1000 builders who ARE selling them that way.

Also, you don't have to BUILD anything. Just order new 6 button 27" VGA cabinets from Dynamo, add the computer and your custom marquee and you are done. 1 hour of work.

I have no idea why the high end builders are futzing around trying to BUILD cabinets for money, when they can buy factory cabs from Dynamo for like $1200.

[Stingray]

I have no idea why the high end builders are futzing around trying to BUILD cabinets for money, when they can buy factory cabs from Dynamo for like $1200.

Because they're $1200. They can certainly be built from scratch for a fraction of that.

-S

[RayB]

Because they're $1200. They can certainly be built from scratch for a fraction of that.

LABOR. Always count labor, tools, employees. We're talking about doing this as a business, no?

[Crazy Cooter]

One thing I have wondered.

[Stingray]

Because they're $1200. They can certainly be built from scratch for a fraction of that.

LABOR. Always count labor, tools, employees. We're talking about doing this as a business, no?

Now come on Ray, are you seriously trying to convince me that it would cost you $1200 to scratch build a cab even counting labor?

-S

[Crazy Cooter]

Because they're $1200. They can certainly be built from scratch for a fraction of that.

LABOR. Always count labor, tools, employees. We're talking about doing this as a business, no?

Now come on Ray, are you seriously trying to convince me that it would cost you $1200 to scratch build a cab even counting labor?

-S

At the rate some of us do things...

[Mr. Bubblehead]

If you aren't selling them set up with games then you lose your business to the 1000 builders who ARE selling them that way.

Also, you don't have to BUILD anything. Just order new 6 button 27" VGA cabinets from Dynamo, add the computer and your custom marquee and you are done. 1 hour of work.

I have no idea why the high end builders are futzing around trying to BUILD cabinets for money, when they can buy factory cabs from Dynamo for like $1200.

You are missing the point.  Building the cabinet itself is what I enjoy.  What little money I make doing this will just be reinvested back into the hobby

[Mr. Bubblehead]

One thing I have wondered.  I know its illegal to sell w/MAME and ROMS.  What if you sold just the cab and then had someone (a friend) come out and install the emulator and ROMS for free?   Would that not get around the limitations???

If this were to happen I don't want to know anything about it.

I LEGALLY own a few ROMs, and I install them for testing purposes on all the cabs I make.  Now, if I were to sell a cabinet and I forgot to erase the files or the new owner did an "undelete" of the files, well then....

[brain21]

Here's the thing:

I don't know about MAME itself, but selling them with ROMs is technically illegal.  Even if you own the ROMs (jamma boards), unless you are reselling the Jamma Boards themselves.

I would guess that the people selling them loaded with games either have licenses for the games, or are reselling versions that you can actually purchase (like the Atari bundles of some of their games for the PC, etc.), or they are basically lucky that no manufacturer (Bally, Williams, etc.) has decided to enforce it's copyrights, or that the local gov't hasn't decided to enfore anti-piracy laws.

This is why earlier I suggested installing linux or PC-Dos.  You can alway include an option to install Windows using a customer's valid Windows license # or something.

Now, what the customers do or get AFTER the product has been sold, is up to them :-)

Brain21

[Stingray]

Because they're $1200. They can certainly be built from scratch for a fraction of that.

LABOR. Always count labor, tools, employees. We're talking about doing this as a business, no?

Now come on Ray, are you seriously trying to convince me that it would cost you $1200 to scratch build a cab even counting labor?

-S

At the rate some of us do things...

Conceded.

-S

[AC.]

You might want to consider a couple of options:



A friend of mine was interested in this as well.  I told him that I thought that the way to go was to make a port-a-mame.  Build a control panel & very deep box.  Mount a motherboard (mini-itx, or just a really small, 2 slot ATX MB) inside the control panel box.  Use a cheap video card that has s-video out (Xpert@play 98 is one).  Run PC-dos & possibly arcadeOS.  set everything up on the box (PC-wise) the way you want it (minus the roms) and ghost image the hard drive.   See if you can get $500 for it.  This thing would be portable, and can hook up to both a TV and/or a VGA monitor.  They can put it on the floor in front of the TV like you would an Xbox.  The price difference is the fact that it is also a PC.  You could put all sorts of additional features on there like some sort of an arcade jukebox and they customer can use the ethernet port from the MB (that you mounted into the box w/ easy access to the RJ-45 plug), and connect it to a media server, or whatever.  If you have a CD-Rom drive installed (reccomended) then they can pop in a CD or an MP3 loaded CD & play it (speakers sold extra).

Brain21

Brain21 you just described my 1st cabinet perfectly.  After I built it, i then built the lower cabinet to support it. The price increases with the accessories like paint, hinges, fans, breakout power button - etc.

To answer the main question: Not economically worth it.  Everyone that comes to my house tells me I should sell it -- and I then immediately ask if they want to buy it, they pause and stammer and avoid a response.   Shipping, customer service, and making a profit would be a problem.

[Pik4chu]

One thing I have wondered.