Leaf button/switch experts: Help!

[whammoed]

I woul like to use leaf buttons on a cocktail panel but space is *very* tight.

[Knievel]

If those red dots are meant to show the spot where the button will be pushing you'll be fine.
It'll just take slightly more pressure to make contact with yours.

[whammoed]

If those red dots are meant to show the spot where the button will be pushing you'll be fine.
It'll just take slightly more pressure to make contact with yours.

Yes.
thanks for the confirmation.  I think you're right.  I notice that the new style holders (like bob roberts sells) put the actuation point further out than the older style I have.  The ones I have put the actuation point directly at the contact points where the bob roberts style put the actuation point closer to the end of the leaf.  I suppose there's no reason moving the actuation point in closer wouldn't work as well.

[Knievel]

Ah yes mine are like his then, that's why I wasn't sure about the dots.

On these ones the contacts are 1 3/8" long from the mounting block to the tip if that helps you any.
They look a lot longer in your pic.

[whammoed]

Ah yes mine are like his then, that's why I wasn't sure about the dots.

On these ones the contacts are 1 3/8" long from the mounting block to the tip if that helps you any.
They look a lot longer in your pic.

thanks, I see now that the difference between mine and yours is the length of the leafs, not the holders.  Same idea though.

[NoOne=NBA=]

You will definitely want to do a mock-up on this.
The farther you get from the tip of the switch, the more pressure is required to actuate them.

I don't even like mine at the "normal" point.
I mount the switches on all of mine so that the button actually hits the tip of the switch--making them lighter.

Given a choice between your proposed design and microswitches, I'd go with the micros.

If you are using a metal CP, you might even want to give Sanwas a try.
After trying them, I like them even more than leafswitches.
They are as quiet as leafs, but require less pressure to actuate them.

[Pik4chu]

the preasure problem is easily resolved by bending the leafs so they are closer to the button, and cloer together.  So they are still a good 'light' switch

[NoOne=NBA=]

the preasure problem is easily resolved by bending the leafs so they are closer to the button, and cloer together.  So they are still a good 'light' switch

It not a distance issue though, it's a leverage one.
The closer you get to the base of the switch, the harder it is to physically push the button--regardless of how far you have to push it to contact.

Shorter Spring Steel = Stiffer Spring

[hypernova]

i must be the only one who has trouble finding these joysticks and buttons with leaf switches.

the leaf switches i have found were around $3 apiece.  without the button seemingly.  are leaf switches really that expensive since they're much harder to find?

and what about these sanwas that someone mentioned.  where are those found, and what's the price on them, since i found only one site, charging around $3 bucks apiece again.

everyone's so down on microswitches because of the clicking sound.  so how prevalent is this sound?  being housed inside 3/4" thick wood, with arcade sounds/music would make it seem that it wouldn't be all that obvious.  the sound only has the gaps in the button housing itself to escape.
so assuming that you're at a spot where no music is playing, or it's playing very low, how loud is this clicking?

[whammoed]

You will definitely want to do a mock-up on this.
The farther you get from the tip of the switch, the more pressure is required to actuate them.

I don't even like mine at the "normal" point.
I mount the switches on all of mine so that the button actually hits the tip of the switch--making them lighter.

Given a choice between your proposed design and microswitches, I'd go with the micros.

If you are using a metal CP, you might even want to give Sanwas a try.
After trying them, I like them even more than leafswitches.
They are as quiet as leafs, but require less pressure to actuate them.

The leaf switches I have are longer, so I can actually take the opposite route and have the actuation point further from normal rather than closer.

[whammoed]

i must be the only one who has trouble finding these joysticks and buttons with leaf switches.

the leaf switches i have found were around $3 apiece.

[Pik4chu]

the preasure problem is easily resolved by bending the leafs so they are closer to the button, and cloer together.

[NoOne=NBA=]

i must be the only one who has trouble finding these joysticks and buttons with leaf switches.

the leaf switches i have found were around $3 apiece.  without the button seemingly.  are leaf switches really that expensive since they're much harder to find?

They are all over ebay, all the time.
You just have to be able to pick the good ones.

and what about these sanwas that someone mentioned.  where are those found, and what's the price on them, since i found only one site, charging around $3 bucks apiece again.

That's the going price on them.
Some people choke at it, others don't.

everyone's so down on microswitches because of the clicking sound.  so how prevalent is this sound?

My arcade cabinets are currently in the same room my wife watches TV in.
I can't turn the sound up where I normally would, so the clicking bugs me more than it would normally.
That aside, I'll second that it's more of a feel thing to me.
The leaf switches, when properly adjusted require almost NO movement on the button to actuate, and will allow you to "float" them.
That is where you keep pressure on the button, and just rock it slightly up and down to make/break contact on the switches.
This results in a much higher number of button presses per minute than is possible with microswitches.

That is because there is a hysteresis factor in the microswitches themselves.
You have to push farther to activate the snap switches than you do to hold them.
Then you have to release them farther to get the switches to disconnect.
This distance isn't much, but when you are constantly cracking off shots, etc... the increase in time to make/break contact on the snap switches adds up to less shots per minute.

With leaf switches, you can approach a theoretical zero movement condition where you have exactly the right pressure on the switch, and any more causes it to close, any less causes it to open.

[NoOne=NBA=]

what I meant was a distance between the two contacts, rather than that to the switch.  While it won't decrease the preasure needed by very much it would greatly reduce the distance needed i.e. compensating it somewhat.

What you're not factoring in though is that's exactly how I have them set when my buttons are on the tip of the leaf.
My leaf buttons actuate right off the top, so that will negate any compensation.

I actually build custom mounts for the switches that are just a wood block sanded to exactly the right height, so that the button rests lightly on the tip of the top leaf.
This produces a similar result to the system that Atari used on Asteroids, but doesn't require the same counter-boring, etc...
(For those who haven't seen one,  the switches were just screwed to the bottom of the 3/4" board, and the buttons were back-bored into the wood, so that the PAL nut would hold the "metal" buttons through the metal CP, and into the wood part).

[hypernova]

ahh...ebay...the last resort, though sometimes the only resort.

You just have to be able to pick the good ones

how vague!

[webgeek]

i hope to get some leaf switches, but thinking about it for a few minutes, i realize i'll only need them for players 1-4, and the mouse buttons.  for the admin/coin/start buttons, microswitches should do just fine, since they don't need pressed at a high rate of speed ever, and generally don't need pressed all that often at all.  so clicking noise is minimized, and the "feel" issue is nearly irrelevant for those buttons.  agreed?

That's probably the approach I will take as well.

Mike

[NoOne=NBA=]

You just have to be able to pick the good ones

For buttons you want to make sure they aren't ab-USED.
In alot of cases used ones will clean up nicely, but NOS ones are best.

The buttons come in two general lengths.
There are shorter ones for use in metal control panels, and longer ones for wood.
That said, I prefer the shorter ones for my wood CP's.
They take more work to mount than the ones for wood CP's, but you can mount them without the switch-holders.

You will probably need the little spacer piece below the CP because they had a metal CP on top that gave the CP a little more depth than the wood alone.

I will post a pic tomorrow, that SHOULD have been attached to this, but got removed by the "there's been posts made since you clicked reply" thing.

for the admin/coin/start buttons, microswitches should do just fine...agreed?

Yes

[hypernova]

ab-USED.
In alot of cases used ones will clean up nicely, but NOS ones are best.

ab-USED?

[TurboC--]

"abused"  !! 

NOS = new old stock.

If I were you I'd use this situation to invent an entirely new leaf switch design that is better than the original and yet takes up 1/2 the space.  You'll make........ hundreds.   

[NoOne=NBA=]

If I were you I'd use this situation to invent an entirely new leaf switch design that is better than the original and yet takes up 1/2 the space.  You'll make........ hundreds.   

That's basically the idea behind some of the Japanese buttons, similar to the Sanwas.

I'm not sure exactly what system the Sanwas themselves use, but I've got similar buttons that use a reed switch inside the button body, and are activated by a small magnet in the button shaft.
When that magnet goes down far enough in the body of the button, it draws the reedswitch closed, creating contact.

[TurboC--]

Then the magnet must cause SOME level of "sticking" to occur?  The nature of magnetic potential.  At least it wouldn't have the "zero moment pressing" you talked about earlier.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Reed switches are similar to leafs in construction, and the ones in that button are mounted vertically.
The magnet gets to a point where it barely sucks the leaves together, and creates a similar situation to a leaf.

[Level42]

I can get you guys any number of leafswitches as you like, either with tungsten contacts or silver contacts, buttonholders,normal or translucent buttons, pal nuts you name it. Brand new directly from Suzo.

In fact I can get the entire catalogue (except gambling machine parts) for you if you like, so also joysticks, trackballs, coin acceptors, coin doors you name it....

I'm not into this for any profit, just want to help out fellow BYOAC-ers.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Here's the diagram that SHOULD have been attached to my post yesterday.

[whammoed]

I did some more playing around with the position of the switches and it looks like I can get them to actuate at the same position they would if I used holders.  Its a tight squeeze though.  I'll know for sure when I get my hands on the buttons, only have the switches so far.  I'll post a picture when I get a working mockup.

[hypernova]

nevermind that first part.  sent a pm instead.


"ab-used"

der...i a moron.

[hypernova]

hmm....new question:

after looking at many buttons made for leaf switches...what is their standard hole size?  is there a standard?  i've already made all my holes on my cp at 1 1/8.  ...so will leaf buttons be too big?  too small?

[Knievel]

Too big...the leafs will need a  1 3/16" hole.

[spidermonkey]

Actually,I was able to fit leaf switch buttons in an 1 1/8" hole by trimming the three little teeth that are on the underside of the bezel lip with a razor knife. I believe the purpose of the three teeth is to dig into the cp slightly to keep the button from spinning but if the pal nut is good and tight the button won't move. I trimmed them off all of my translucent leaf buttons and their going on 4 years now and they haven't moved. When I say teeth I mean the three little triangular gussets that are molded right into the button where the shank of the button meets the underside of the button bezel. Every leaf switch button I've ever seen has these. If they are not removed then the button will in fact need a 1 3/16" hole.

[Knievel]

I've only used the translucent leafs, I can tell you there's no way you'll get them into a 1 1/8" hole.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I've only used the translucent leafs, I can tell you there's no way you'll get them into a 1 1/8" hole.

How hard did you push them?
Mine translucents went into my 1x poplar CP's with moderate pressure.
They did dig grooves with the same three protrusions mentioned earlier, however.
As is, they don't even NEED the PAL nuts to keep them in.

Getting them OUT is a bit tough though.
I've had to bridge the CP between two boards, put a piece of scrap wood on the E-clip area of the button, and hit it with a hammer to get them back out.

I would RECOMMEND a larger hole, but the 1-1/8" can work in a pinch--especially if you ream it a bit.

[Knievel]

I'm talking about an MDF CP, there is no 'give' like with real wood.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I'm talking about an MDF CP, there is no 'give' like with real wood.

Yes.
In MDF you'd definitely want the bigger hole.

[hypernova]

then having a plexi cover will require one to remove the "tri-wings," i would assume.  or make the hole bigger.  which is no easy task when you've already got holes made.  probably nigh impossible to center the bit exactly.