Alternatives to MDF and some misc. questions

[Wolf]

Hi all!  

First, I'm new to these boards and just wanted to introduce myself and say hi to everyone!  I have just begun my first BYOAC project.  I will be constructing a 2-player Street Fighter style control panel.  I have finally gotten past the research stage and am proceeding through planning and purchasing materials.  For the time being, I am going with Happ Supers and buttons, and will be using a hacked Dell USB keyboard for the controller (I know, I know, the I-PAC saves alot of headaches, but this is something that I want to do for now).  I have run into a few snags and was wondering if anyone may have some advice.  Also had a few random questions if anyone has some thoughts.

I wanted to use 3/4 MDF for the construction, but am having great difficulty finding any in my neck of the woods (Puerto Rico).  So, I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions for alternative materials.  My local Home Depot (which, sadly has never even HEARD of MDF), carries an array of plywood, as well as some other misc. woods like Cedar.  The ply looked OK, but I was wondering if anyone has had any experience working with it.

Next, I was wondering if anyone else has done a USB keyboard hack.  I have found plenty of info on PS/2 hacks, but very little on USB ones.  I have read accounts ranging from it being great with no ghosting, to it being lame with only 6 buttons pressable.  Is anyone aware of any major differences between performing a USB and PS/2 hack?

Next question is about Dremels.  I'm considering in investing in a Dremel, along with the router kit add on to do edges and to give more room for the sticks.  Is a Dremel generally useful for this type of product?  Has anyone used the router kit?

Finally, I am having a helluva time trying to find quick connect boxes to wire up the keyboard hack with.  Anyone know any reasonablely useful alternatives?

Sorry for the long post and jamming all of the questions in one post, but I didn't want to clutter the forum on my first day

Any and all advice and suggestions will be greatly appreciated!!!

Regards,

-Wolf

[hyiu]

well... I can't help in all your questions...
but hopefully... can give you some ideas on some of them...

if you can't find MDF, 3/4 in plywood is also a good choice...
just keep in mind... if you buy those cheap ones... the surface will be kinda rough....

mdf will take paint very well... but plywood will not take paint that well.... (but if you sand and stain the plywood, it will also look very good....) well.... may not be very arcade... but more like furniture.... check around in the examples sites... there are quite a few cabs that uses plywood...

and if you have budget.... I would suggest laminate the plywood.... then it will look AMAZING !!!!....

if you're going to buy a router, then forget about the dremel... I think you can do most things that you'll need with the router... instead of getting the dremel, try get some better bits for the router....

keyboard hack.... I have no experience....
but didn't really heard much good about it...

and as for quick connect box alternatives in puerto Rico... sorry... no clue... shops here like radio shack have them all the time.... or try electronic supply store....

good luck...

[Wolf]

Thank you very much for the input, hyiu!

Going to check around a few more places today for MDF but if I still can't find any I guess I'll go ply.

-Wolf

[Smittydc]

wood:  Depending on the size of your control panel, pine is nice.  And look in the shelving department of home depot -- there might be something that'll work for you.

Dremel:  I love 'em.  The router attachement works ok up to about 1/2" depth, then it starts having trouble with torque.  But works fine for routing out more room for the joysticks.  I also used my dremel to cut my Lexan, bevel the trackball hole, and trim parts of my cabinet which weren't fitting perfectly.

[eightbit]

An alternative to MDF would be melamine. Its got a thin plastic laminate on it. Its a lot like MDF. Here in the US its often used in closets or cabinets for shelving and can be ordered in several colors but most places only stock white.

[JustMichael]

If I remember correctly there is a 6 key limit imposed on USB keyboards by windows.

[Wolf]

If there is a six key limitation, I wonder if thats a Windows issue, something in the driver, or something with a particular controller.  Anyways, the USB keyboard I'm planning to use is one just lying around the office.  I'll plug it in and see if I can land on 6 keys at the same time and let you all know what happens

-Wolf

[rampy]

If I remember correctly there is a 6 key limit imposed on USB keyboards by windows.

small clarification based on hearsay... I believe the USB keyboard specs say something about that, but MAYBE different USB keyboard manufactures implement that standard/spec in different ways and a person could get lucky.

I may be talking out of my you know what though...

carry on..

rampy

PS if you can't find MDF, and don't necessarily want to do plywood (either with artwork and lexan or laminated)... the melamine shelving might be a decent alternative...

PSS when you are asking for MDF... maybe they call it by it's "full name"
Medium Density Fiberboard (?)...  maybe it has a different set of initials in spanish... *shrug*

[Wolf]

Hmm, hadn't thought of that.  It may very well have a completely different name in Spanish.  Will have to check on that.

[eightbit]

MDF is basically fine saw dust (powder really) mixed with glue and pressed into sheets. It usually has a dark brown cardboard color to it. Its dense, very smooth, and heavy. Because there is no grain to it it isn't very strong when  force is applied perpendicular to the face (it makes poor shelves) but when properly braced, like for a arcade cabinet it can support a lot of weight.

[Wolf]

FWIW, I took out the USB keyboard I had and plugged it into my system at work.  Using the very useful Keyscan program, I was able to simultaneously press no more than 6 keys at the same time.  HOWEVER, I then tried with my normal PS/2 keyboard and was also unable to get past the 6 key barrier.  I'm wondering where the limitation lies.  I tried all manner of combinations to try and get more than 6 keys recognized at the same time, but no luck.

-Wolf

[Silverwind]

MDF is basically fine saw dust (powder really) mixed with glue and pressed into sheets. It usually has a dark brown cardboard color to it. Its dense, very smooth, and heavy. Because there is no grain to it it isn't very strong when  force is applied perpendicular to the face (it makes poor shelves) but when properly braced, like for a arcade cabinet it can support a lot of weight.

with proper bracing.. they can take large amounts of weight... i made a speakerbox from 3/4" MDF.. it had a few internal braces.. and I jumped up and down on the top of that thing and it didn't even flex! hehe

I do like the fact that it is smooth... my dad had some leftover plywood that i'm messing with (to test templates) and it's pretty rough on the front... then again it's been on the floor of his garage and probably was cheap anyway

[eightbit]

with proper bracing.. they can take large amounts of weight... i made a speakerbox from 3/4" MDF.. it had a few internal braces.. and I jumped up and down on the top of that thing and it didn't even flex! hehe

I do like the fact that it is smooth... my dad had some leftover plywood that i'm messing with (to test templates) and it's pretty rough on the front... then again it's been on the floor of his garage and probably was cheap anyway

How big was your speaker box?  I was talking about mdf flexing or breaking over a large span. When properly constructed into a box it should be fairly strong. Even a box as big as a arcade cabinet.

Construction grade plywood is looks ugly, is very rough and has lots of voids in it. On the other hand cabinet grade playwood shouldn't have any voids and will require little sanding and should have a nice grain look. Cabinet grade costs 4 times as much.

[Silverwind]

How big was your speaker box?  I was talking about mdf flexing or breaking over a large span. When properly constructed into a box it should be fairly strong. Even a box as big as a arcade cabinet.

Construction grade plywood is looks ugly, is very rough and has lots of voids in it. On the other hand cabinet grade playwood shouldn't have any voids and will require little sanding and should have a nice grain look. Cabinet grade costs 4 times as much.

it was around 3 cubic feet internal volume after displacement (of speakers,braces,etc)

roughly speaking.. it looked about the same size as a large ice chest.. very heavy and very tough

[Silverwind]

how much does a 4' x 8' sheet of cabinet grade plywood go for?

[mpm32]

$50 - $120 per sheet depending on the grade and what species the outside plys are.

[elfman12]

This may sound like a silly thing, but maybe it's not called MDF board where you are - or maybe those initials aren't the same in another language. Just a guess - it's MEDIUM DENSITY FIBERBOARD in English, but who knows if that's used elsewhere.... just a thought.

[Silverwind]

$50 - $120 per sheet depending on the grade and what species the outside plys are.

what type of plywood is that? hehehehe

I'll take a look at the local home depot.. see what they have...  i really would like to keep the cost down to $30 or less per sheet..

[hyiu]

in US, home depot price....
a lower grade 4 x 8 ft 3/4 in plywood would go for about US$20...

high end (home depot) briich plywood (the surface is quite smooth) cost about US$50....

but prices in Puerto Rico could be different....

[Lilwolf]

DONT GO USB KEYBOARD!

worse possible solution (probably).

best/worse

1) encoder (duh)

2) hacked joystick (because they are suppost to be used these ways)

3) hacked keyboard (luck of the draw.  the encoders on them can change so quickly that I've heard of people buying the same brand/model and having different encoders. )  Some will do it, some wont.  All will take time to find the right keys.

4) hacked USB keyboards.  Why?  In the usb keyboard spec (yes, there is one) it says it never needs to handle more then a few keys pressed at once (don't remember the number, but it might have been 6).  So anyone creating a USB keyboard encoder will probably create it for the spec unless they have a reason not to...  So the chances of getting one that will work probably drops considerably.

btw, how many joysticks/buttons do you want?  Look at one of the thumbpads to hack.  if you find one with enough buttons, you have a good solution there.

[Wolf]

My beta controller will be one stick, and nine buttons.  The final version will be two sticks, and 15 buttons.  For the final version, I may very well break down and buy the IPAC, especially if the keyboard hack turns out to be less then what I desire.

I wanted to keep costs down on the beta controller (so if I do a poor job the first time around I won't feel as bad), and use the experience for learning.  

USB will probably be OK for beta, but with a six button max, definately won't work out for the final product, especially considering it will be used for alot of 2-player action.  Maybe I will abandon the USB altogether though.  I do have a PS2 keyboard I can use.  Just something really cool about plugging your own creation into a USB port and watching Windows detect it and set it all up

-Wolf

[Lilwolf]

You should really look around for some super cheap thumbpads with some buttons on them then.  Especially the usb ones.

why?

Well, you get the first one done... Then you get ready for the second and hack another thumbpad and use them both.  The great thing about USB is you can always add more....

[Wolf]

Oh...forgot to mention about gamepad hack.  I guess I never really thought about it.  I have a bunch of otherwise-worthless keyboards sitting around the office, so I guess I got it in my head that thats the way to go.  No gamepads around  And, I guess if I am going to spend money on a game pad to hack, I might as well put that towards the IPAC

Nevertheless though, thanks for the suggestion.  If I do happen to see one with the right buttons for really cheap maybe I'll snag one.

I am guessing USB gamepads would be subject to the same limitations as USB keyboards?

-Wolf

[Lilwolf]

Not at all... they are designed to have all their buttons pressed at once.  

And you might get a usb keyboard that will work.... but because there was a spec saying they didn't have to... I have heard they dont more often then they do.  If you have some, and you have more time then money, then try them (running the software above).  You might get lucky.

Also, if you have a BUNCH, you might be able to hack multiples....  Now there would be a hack : )

[eightbit]

Nevertheless though, thanks for the suggestion.  If I do happen to see one with the right buttons for really cheap maybe I'll snag one.

Is $3 cheap enough? I bought 3 and with shipping it was $15 total. I'm in process of hacking the first one now.

Its almost like they built the sidewinder for hacking. They have nice holes to insert the wire and solder to. The holes are all labeled and it uses a common ground. It has its limitations but for under $20 you can get more inputs than a $50 ipac. Don't get me wrong, I've done 2 ipacs and they can't be beat for simplicity and functionality but this sidewinder thing blows my mind how cheap it is. There are several threads with new messages today discussing the sidewinder hacks. Check em out.  Certainly far better than a keyboard hack.

If you really have to have USB I've heard the USB sidewinders can be found for $10 each.

[Wolf]

Wow, yeah, 3 bucks would definately be cheap enough

Gonna do some shopping and see if I can find one for cheap!  Would sure beat doing a keyboard matrix.

-Wolf

[eightbit]

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/mussalli/micsidgampad.html
I ordered late on Thursday and they were at my house on Monday.

[Wolf]

I was walking through EB today, and noticed they are selling (don't laugh) Barbie Interact gamepads for $2.95 a piece.  These have a D-pad and 8 buttons.  At that price, I figured what the heck, and picked up one.  Considering I didn't need to pay shipping or anything, thats a deal that can't be beat (if it works).  I'll take it apart and check it out.   Regardless though, I think I will order a few of those 3 dollar sidewinders as well.  Inccredible price, and the way they can daisy-chain may be useful.

Oh, btw, for anyone who has hacked a gamepad (or keyboard for that matter), how does one connect all the controls' common connections?  Its my understanding that you the NO to the appropriate contact on the interface board, and then connect the common  lines from all the buttons and joysticks together, and then connect them all somewhere.  So, I guess what I am wondering, is what do you connect the bunch of common lines to?

Thanks!

-Wolf

[eightbit]

So, I guess what I am wondering, is what do you connect the bunch of common lines to?

Notice the black wire goes from switch to switch, this is the common ground. It connects to the ground on the interface.

[Wolf]

Word of warning for anyone who might consider buying the Barbie gamepad at EB cuz its cheap....its not actually 8 buttons.  It has 8 buttons, but four are legitimate inputs, and the other four are "turbo" buttons.  No wonder it was so cheap

Gonna go order some sidewinders now.

-Wolf

[eightbit]

I bought a cheap pad at Circuit city for $1 and I thought it was 8 buttons but it was only 4 with 2 turbos and 2 redundant triggers. 8 Inputs is pretty tight even for a 1 player cab. I wanted at least 1p and 2p start, coin and 2 buttons plus a stick. That means nine inputs. I could drop the 2p start and get it by shifting keys, but I wanted the look.

[neuromancer]

in US, home depot price....
a lower grade 4 x 8 ft 3/4 in plywood would go for about US$20...

high end (home depot) briich plywood (the surface is quite smooth) cost about US$50....

Within the last two weeks I bought 3/4" "B/B" oak plywood and 1/4" birch plywood. The Oak was $39 and the birch $20. This summer I bought a sheet of 3/4" MDF. I think it was about $15, which was about the same as 1/2" CDX plywood.

If you want your cabinet to look like an oak or a birch cabinet (like a kitchen cabinet) then go for that. If you're going to paint it, then MDF is easiest and cheapest. With low grade plywood, if you fill and sand enough then it will look fine too.

Bob

[Psyklops]

in US, home depot price....
a lower grade 4 x 8 ft 3/4 in plywood would go for about US$20...

high end (home depot) briich plywood (the surface is quite smooth) cost about US$50....

but prices in Puerto Rico could be different....

For comparison's sake I just picked up some 3/4" 2-sided Birch for $66 CAD for a 4'x8'.  Pine was around $47 and Oak was up in the high $80s-low $90s.

[Silverwind]

You bought some birch?  Sounds good... let us know how you like it!

[hyiu]

I bought and have used some brich 3/4 plywood 4 x 8...
I like them...

according to the home depot guy... (that's where I bought them..) that's the smoothest among all kind....

but if you like darker wood grain, you might want to try oak... because brich is smooth, but very "white".... you can stain... but I believe oak plywood is darker..... easier to stain to darker color....

my $0.02 cents.... (but since I'm not very sensitive to color myself and not a wood expert, take what I say here at your own risk...)    

[Psyklops]

You bought some birch?  Sounds good... let us know how you like it!

Actually I didn't buy it for my cabinet. I'm building a computer desk first before I'll have time to get at my arcade cabinet project.  But so far it's turned out very well.  One thing though with this type of wood as opposed to MDF, you really need to get a blade for your saw that is designed for minimal chip-out if you want your cuts to be nice and clean.  I got a 40 tooth cabinetry blade and there is still a small amount of chip-out, but only on the one side.  I'll use those sides as the insides and cover most of them up with joints.

[neuromancer]

You bought some birch?  Sounds good... let us know how you like it!

Actually I didn't buy it for my cabinet. I'm building a computer desk first before I'll have time to get at my arcade cabinet project.  But so far it's turned out very well.  One thing though with this type of wood as opposed to MDF, you really need to get a blade for your saw that is designed for minimal chip-out if you want your cuts to be nice and clean.  I got a 40 tooth cabinetry blade and there is still a small amount of chip-out, but only on the one side.  I'll use those sides as the insides and cover most of them up with joints.

I used a 60 tooth circular saw blade to cut my oak ply. It worked well. I think the blade was about us$14.

I should have mentioned that the Oak and Birch plywood is the same price for the same size in my Home Depot. ($40 for the 3/4", and $20 for the 1/4", regardless of species). We went with the oak for a bathroom cabinet, even though we prefered the birch, because the only solid woods they have (for face frames and the like) are oak, poplar, pine, and fir.

Bob

[eightbit]

One thing though with this type of wood as opposed to MDF, you really need to get a blade for your saw that is designed for minimal chip-out if you want your cuts to be nice and clean.  I got a 40 tooth cabinetry blade and there is still a small amount of chip-out, but only on the one side.  I'll use those sides as the insides and cover most of them up with joints.

There are things you can do to prevent chip out. The chip out is usually going to occur on the side of the wood that the blade is exiting. On a hand held circular saw this is the top, on a table saw it will be the bottom of the peice being cut. A good blade will help, a good plywood blade will keep chip out to a minimum, and an excellent blade will eliminate it almost completely.  You can also center masking tape down the cut line on the side the blade is exiting, you'll be surprised by how much it helps.

[hyiu]

I'm located in Brooklyn, NYC... and 4 x 8,  3/4 in plywood has a wide range of price... starting around US$20 for rough grades.... up to almost $50 each piece for brich.... they have like 6 different types.... (I think...) forgot exactly....

[Psyklops]

You bought some birch?  Sounds good... let us know how you like it!

Actually I didn't buy it for my cabinet. I'm building a computer desk first before I'll have time to get at my arcade cabinet project.  But so far it's turned out very well.  One thing though with this type of wood as opposed to MDF, you really need to get a blade for your saw that is designed for minimal chip-out if you want your cuts to be nice and clean.  I got a 40 tooth cabinetry blade and there is still a small amount of chip-out, but only on the one side.  I'll use those sides as the insides and cover most of them up with joints.

I used a 60 tooth circular saw blade to cut my oak ply. It worked well. I think the blade was about us$14.

I should have mentioned that the Oak and Birch plywood is the same price for the same size in my Home Depot. ($40 for the 3/4", and $20 for the 1/4", regardless of species). We went with the oak for a bathroom cabinet, even though we prefered the birch, because the only solid woods they have (for face frames and the like) are oak, poplar, pine, and fir.

Bob

I found the same problem.  Almost nobody carries any solid birch.  I did find one place, a specialty wood store, but it was all rough stock and would have to be planed and jointed to get some nice 3/4" square stock.  I didn't have the desire to do that myself and I didn't want to pay them to do it for me either.  So I picked up some nice Aspen which is very close to the birch and some birch veneer tape.  I really didn't want to go with Oak, because I really can't stand the look of Oak.  I find it has that 70's/80's furniture, when everything was fake oak panelling and brass highlights, feel about it that I just can't get past