East Asian Imitation Parts

[Ninja Supremacist]

I keep seeing these eyebrow-raising comments throughout the internet that so and so's arcade parts are "not East Asian imitations" and they proceed to show me their wonderfully overpriced red-blooded American stuff.

I don't want to start a flame war, I just want to build a control panel at prices that don't make me wonder if I'm being scammed.  I found one below the $1 per button mark but I still: Where _are_ these East Asian imitations?  I'm very interested in buying from them instead of what I've encountered so far.

I want to build out my garage with a couple cocktail tables.  I don't want to do it at Happ prices and, frankly, the "one million uses" quality is overkill.  I find it hard to believe that East Asia cannot produce comparable quality for arcade parts at a considerably lower price.  Isn't that where everything is made anyway?

[TOK]

Don't buy the junk, and don't buy the real stuff directly from Happ.

If you're willing to go on ebay, look for sellers like Tornadoterrysdot (Texas), or there is a user here named Ponyboy that a lot of guys use. Most of the Happs sellers that sell in volume sell for like 1/3 to 1/2 the retail prices listed on Happs site.

[SOAPboy]

Gumby sells some happs stuff pretty decent priced as well..

[Ninja Supremacist]

Don't buy the junk, and don't buy the real stuff directly from Happ.

That seems to be the beginning and the end of these responses.  No offense, please.  I just can't understand why.  What would I be risking?  An authentic feeling which could be entirely subjective?

I appreciate the references.  Thanks.  I'll check those guys.

As for Ponyboy... I want to do business with him but he hasn't responded yet.  Is that because I'm a newb here?  "Right now" isn't necessary but "eventually" seems like a nice second choice.

[SOAPboy]

Don't buy the junk, and don't buy the real stuff directly from Happ.

That seems to be the beginning and the end of these responses.

[spystyle]

X-arcade has very cheap buttons and sticks:

http://www.x-arcade.com/arcade_parts.shtml

In my opinion they are decent quality (considering the price) but have noisey microswitches (compared to Happ)

But they work just fine. I put them in a cabinet I made for my sister's house a year ago and they have held up just fine to considerable use.

In the future you could always "upgrade" to cherry switches if you wanted to.

Dig it?
Craig

[TOK]

Don't buy the junk, and don't buy the real stuff directly from Happ.

That seems to be the beginning and the end of these responses.  No offense, please.  I just can't understand why.  What would I be risking?  An authentic feeling which could be entirely subjective?

I appreciate the references.  Thanks.  I'll check those guys.

As for Ponyboy... I want to do business with him but he hasn't responded yet.  Is that because I'm a newb here?  "Right now" isn't necessary but "eventually" seems like a nice second choice.

Subjective is it, but I can only speak from my experience.
I think pretty much every time I've skimped on something, I've ended up regretting it and spent more to do it right.
I tried a Suzo 2.5" trackball. Neither the size of the ball or the construction of the rollers felt good to me compared to the Happ 3". After I tried the Suzo, I went back and bought the Happ, then had to modify my control panel and cut a new piece of plexi to fit it.

Your controls your interface between your body and your machine. If they are a limiting factor, the whole experience suffers. The difference between a great set of controls and a bad set is probably less than $50. If the budget is that tight, you might be in the wrong hobby. I think I spent about $175 in stuff I hadn't anticipated while building my cabinet, and that's a conservative estimate. Its amazing how miscellaneous hardware and tools you need add up.

[Ninja Supremacist]

I think x-arcade is a perfect case-in-point.

It is durable.  I owned one years ago.  There's no way you can reasonably call it junk.  It certainly doesn't "play like ass", whatever that means. That said, I don't care for the chassis design or the button layout.  Furthermore, the Ford Model T button policy is a bit aggravating... you can have any color you want as long as its black.

I know Saint isn't against the x-arcade.  Would Saint advertise any junk here?  No way.  This crowd would eat him alive and kill the credibility of this site if it was that bad.

Anything above 75 cents per button is robbery in my view.  Where are the guys putting out this alleged "junk"?  Something around this issue smells like blind acceptance.

[spystyle]

If you find buttons for less than 75 cents let us know! Until then, X-arcade buttons are $1 each and their sticks are $10.

You might be able to save by scouring eBay...

The trick is : the X-arcade buttons and sticks are the cheapest that we have confirmed. You may save $10 by ordering from Asia but end up waiting 3 weeks for the order to come in the mail and maybe they'll fall apart after some use - or maybe they just won't be responsive in the first place.

You know there is no limit to how poor manufacturing standards can fall. Haven't you ever bought something that fell apart? The sticker read "Taiwan" and it was of such poor quality that it didn't hold up to nominal use? If not you are a young consumer and eventually will.

And I will second the other members : Happ is the industry standard for good reason, it's worth the extra bucks because on a cab the controls and screen are the most important parts - that's what your players will see and touch. I have Happ controls on my primary cabinet and every time I DON'T hear that "clickity clack" of the cheap microswitches I am happy.

But budget is always a factor, if budget does not allow for Happ  ordering what your fellow board members have tested is wise.

Otherwise, find the cheapest possible buttons and sticks and give us a full report, but know that it is a gamble and you might lose.

Dig it?
Craig

[Ninja Supremacist]

I'm nauseous at the concept of defending anything from The Notorious (TM) Shawn Walters (TM) of X-arcade (TM) but the information needs to be cleared up...

The only way to buy x-arcade components is to buy the joystick/buttons combination for $30.  If you assume a low retail value of the sticks at $8 each, $14 remains to be divided among the buttons.  That brings the buttons to $0.70 each at _retail_.  I doubt they or Happ or Wico pay more than $0.05 per button.

As for 75 cents per button, I've found it.  They are internal microswitch, however.  The external microswitch buttons by the same company are $0.90 in lots of 20.  Check dreamarcades.  I chose external for potential maintenance issues.  They don't have the variety of colors that Happ has but I seriously doubt that's a commentary on quality.

Cheap != quality and expensive != quality.  However, monopoly and duopoly usually means price fixing.  In every other industry, prices hit the floor over time.  The retro/amusement industry seems to be able to ignore economics.

[pointdablame]

No offense to you, but you seem to have already made up your mind, so just buy the parts you found and try them.  If you are happy with them, and don't have complaints.... who really cares?  You only have to please yourself.  You don't seem like you're going to be convinced of anything different, so just give them a shot.  It can't hurt to try them.

Me personally, I've used the Wico knockoff joysticks and HATED them. They feel awkward, play awkward, and just don't play as well IMHO.  X-Arcade buttons are ok, but the micros are noisy.  If you don't care about that noise, they'll be fine for you. 

If you haven't used ANY arcade parts before, you'll probably like anything that you have.  Its when you try out the "real" parts or "better" parts that you notice differences, and even then it's still subjective.  The fact is, some (not all) of these knockoffs actually play poorly... missing contacts or breaking sooner than other parts.  On the flip side though, some are decent replicas of the "real thing" and work just fine.

Personally, I find it very silly to skimp on the few parts of your cabinet that you actually interact with, especially with such a small price gap.  You quoted X-arcade joys at $8, which are Super knock-offs... but you can get REAL Supers for $1 more.  You can get buttons for .90 with what I'd assume to be a very noisy micro, but you can get a real Happ button with a good cherry switch for .45 more.

Work the numbers on a 2player setup and you'll pay an extra $2 for joysticks and an extra $6.30 for buttons (assuming two 7-button layouts).  Is getting possible crappy parts worth a savings of $8.30 to you?  As someone said, if you are worried about such a small difference in price, get out of this hobby... run.... and run quick    This hobby like to eat money very quickly 

[Ninja Supremacist]

Pointdablame,

Actually, I can be convinced quite easily.  I just don't respond to bogeyman tactics like "it's evil" without further explanation.  $0.45 is quite serious unless you don't care about gas prices either.  To say I risk noise and shabby construction is valid with evidence.  To talk about "feeling" is not a very scientific explanation.  To follow a feeling comment with "why don't you just leave?" is absurd and immature.

I am going to follow Craig's suggestion and provide a full report on the components from dreamarcade when they are installed.  Maybe if I said that, you'd refrain from your emotional nonsense.  My apologies.

[pointdablame]

Pointdablame,

Actually, I can be convinced quite easily. I just don't respond to bogeyman tactics like "it's evil" without further explanation. $0.45 is quite serious unless you don't care about gas prices either. To say I risk noise and shabby construction is valid with evidence. To talk about "feeling" is not a very scientific explanation. To follow a feeling comment with "why don't you just leave?" is absurd and immature.

I am going to follow Craig's suggestion and provide a full report on the components from dreamarcade when they are installed. Maybe if I said that, you'd refrain from your emotional nonsense. My apologies.

I guess you didn't catch the "no offense" part.  I was really trying to help.

I just don't see how a $10 difference in parts is enough to risk failure or unhappiness.  As I said, you could very easily be happy with these parts.  But if you're not... you'll have to buy something else... thus making your expenditures more than if you had gotten other parts to begin with.

My 'why don't you leave' was also a total joke... you'll not the smiley emoticons.  It's just a simple fact that these cabs can easily become a money pit.  It's part of the fun actually... "hey I NEED that thing... oh and THAT too "

And as for your gas price metaphor.. I dont' really follow you.  You'll be buying 14 buttons ONCE for a control panel.  You have to continually buy gas which is why .45 is a serious difference in gas prices... but not for buttons.   

I also didn't only talk about "feel."  I said that I USED a wico knockoff and compared to the original it missed contacts and was actually not as mechanically sound as an original.  I also agreed with you in saying that even after all fo that, it is subjective... so why are you jumping down my throat?

Yikes... some people just take the internet too damn serious.  You try to help and then you're told you're immature and spitting "emotional nonsense"


And the funny part of this is: Re read my post and spystyle's..... we're actually giving you the SAME EXACT recommendations.

[Ninja Supremacist]

Point taken.  I surrender.  I was concerned that you were taking this a little too seriously.

I want to do a tricked out all translucent button panel with some effects.  It would be nice if the high price was offset by an easier purchasing experience.

These dreamarcade guys made the buying easy.  No waiting days for some shadow to show up and take my order, no obnoxious attitude on technical questions and no problems at all.  I pointed out a price discrepancy on volume prices for a certain item and they changed it in minutes.  I'd pay Happ prices for someone friendly and knowledgeable on the other end.  That's why I scour this board for information.  I'm not posting many questions because a LOT of answers are here.

I ended up spending triple what I requested from a major seller here that hasn't taken my business.  For the next two months, he won't be able to.  I still want translucent buttons so it's likely that I'll be able to deal with him or somebody if I get contacted.

Anyway, I'm glad we're clear. 

[DreamArcades]

We sell high quality pushbuttons for as low as 89 cents each (when you buy 10). They are nearly identical to Hap's. I know a lot of reader here buy them.  Maybe someone who has can post what they think of them?

We also sell the cheaper integrated pushbuttons for as log as 65 cents each.
I sell a lot of the integrated buttons. They don't have the same feel as the external ones, but they do the job.
-Mike

http://www.dreamarcades.com/partsbuttons/index.shtml

[krick]

Bob Roberts has pretty good prices on Happ stuff...

http://homearcade.org/BBBB/siteindex.html

However, he's located near New Orleans and with the destriuction caused by Katrina, I'm not sure if he's taking orders.

[NoOne=NBA=]

To talk about "feeling" is not a very scientific explanation.

Here's the problem with that though.
LOOK and FEEL are the major differences between the controls, and are NOT scientific.
The controls are what you FEEL while playing, and do have a large impact on the experience.
The LOOK of the control panel is what you SEE when you approach the cabinet.
This is a very subjective hobby, so how I FEEL about something may differ from how YOU feel about it.

If all you want are controls that FUNCTION, pretty much anything will do.
They all FUNCTION similarly, but FEEL different.
I've been through about three sets of joysticks on my Crazy Climber cabinet, looking for exactly the right FEEL that I'm after on them.
All the joysticks have FUNCTIONED so far; but the variables in each (response, stick travel, etc...) have combined to create a different FEEL to each of them.

You could get all scientific on that, to figure out that x" of travel is optimal in the PERFECT stick, etc... but in the end you are left with "this stick doesn't FEEL the way I want it to".

Using Happ for example, there is a big difference in FEEL between the Happ Ultimates, Competitions, and Supers.
All three FUNCTION similarly, but the Ultimates FEEL like cheap joysticks when compared to the other two.
You can FEEL them grinding away on themselves as they move.
They use the same switches on them that the Comps do, use very SIMILAR internal parts, but the parts don't interact as smoothly in the Ultimates, as they do in the Comps.
This creates a different FEEL to the sticks.

Likewise with trackballs.
The $20.00 off-the-shelf PC trackballs FEEL like a cheap PC trackball.
The Suzo/Ultimarc/Betson all feel "good", but there is a distinct difference when they are compared to a Happ.
Is the Happ actually worth how much more you have to pay to get it though?
To me, yes--to others, no.

This hobby is alot like buying cars.
The extra money that they charge for a Lexus isn't worth it to ME, but my boss' wife was willing to pay it.
I'm driving a '92 Jeep Wrangler that fits me, and my lifestyle, much better than her Lexus SUV would.

[grueinthebox]

If you find buttons for less than 75 cents let us know! Until then, X-arcade buttons are $1 each and their sticks are $10.

http://www.dreamarcades.com - $.75 each, 10 for $7, 20 for $13.

EDIT: d'oh, should've finished the thread - got beaten to the punch.  *wanders off to order some pink cheap buttons to match pink t-molding*

[spystyle]

You have pink t-molding 

[Ninja Supremacist]

For Pinko Commies (TM), of course!

[Grasshopper]

Bear in mind that the highly regarded Seimitsu and Sanwa joysticks are made in Japan which of course is part of east Asia.

A lot of the stuff coming out of east Asia (mostly Chinese) is extremely high quality but you do take a risk. With the established manufacturers like Happ, Suzo, IL you know what level of quality you are going to get but with the clone manufacturers the quality is variable.

[elvis]

If you find buttons for less than 75 cents let us know!

It's probably the point of this whole thread, but you can buy buttons from China in lots of 100 for as little as US$0.05.

Postage and import duties are the killer of course.

[Ninja Supremacist]

Is it even ethical to use the term "imitation" in reference to East Asian arcade parts?

That's where arcade gaming began.  That legacy is in the left control/right fire layout that everyone adopts.

Import duties would depend on the countries involved and who is buying.  If I bought through my business as a business expenditure, I'm sure the Commerce Department has programs to assist. A country like Australia is pretty hardcore about keeping things made at home so there's almost no way around import restrictions.

I have an interest in buying bulk because I have friends that want to learn as well.

You got links fat bloke?

[spystyle]

He does say it in a weird way, but:

If his joy is to build the cheapest possible cab, let's see what he can come up with.

We've preached, he knows it's a gamble.

Dig it?
Craig

[elvis]

Is it even ethical to use the term "imitation" in reference to East Asian arcade parts?

That's where arcade gaming began.  That legacy is in the left control/right fire layout that everyone adopts.

I would have to agree.  For starters, "American" arcade parts are all made outside of the US (Spain, Holland, China, Japan, etc).  And secondly, the Asian stuff has a broad range of quality, just like the US stuff.  In every market there's high end and low end.  Just because parts come from Asia, doesn't mean they are low end.  I've bought plenty of high-end stuff from there at good prices, even with import duties.

Import duties would depend on the countries involved and who is buying.  If I bought through my business as a business expenditure, I'm sure the Commerce Department has programs to assist. A country like Australia is pretty hardcore about keeping things made at home so there's almost no way around import restrictions.

Yes, you are right.  Australian import duties are nuts.  With freight, import duties and tax, I end up paying 1.5 to 2 times as much for most things (compared to starting price).  Yet funnily enough, that still comes out up to 1/3 cheaper than buying from the US (as I'm still paying international freight anyway), or even paying for it locally via other importers.  I'm all for helping out fellow Aussies and keeping the dollar local where I can, but when the parts aren't made locally in the first place, I'll get them from the cheapest source (assuming the quality is good enough, which it is in this case).

You got links fat bloke?

http://www.made-in-china.com/

More of a global directory, but you can find plenty of other companies through that link.

[tristan]

heh:

Our company owns abundant science and technical power and advanced production technology, and has introduced advanced technologies and production equipments from abroad.

http://www.made-in-china.com/products/show/premium/DAwMTY4MTcyN/zAwMDIwMTMxM/3/Electrical_Electronics_Switch_Pushbutton_Switch_(SDL-001).html

[elvis]

I should say that the site linked is VERY broad.  There's a lot of non-arcade and industrial stuff there, so don't be surprised if you search for "pushbuttons" and get some weird looking stuff.

[Ninja Supremacist]

Found these "imitation" parts.

Had to do some searching but it that difficult.

[Level42]

Mmmm, take a look at my first fault in getting arcade controls:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=41573.0

Of couse this is only one example. As I already indicate in that thread, there is plenty decent quality stuff coming from Asia...but I would stick to the "brands". Suzo, Happ etc.. Think about it: these companies have served the arcade industry for years and years. Operators want things to last, a broken machine=no money. They don't carry rubbish. And yes, it does make a better game to not be irritated by clumsy controls....it's worth the money IMHO.

[Ninja Supremacist]

So this experience happened only a few weeks ago?  That is a valuable cautionary tale.  I wonder though... is it more the fault of a dirtbag eBayer rather than the Chinese manufacturer?  Or are you pretty sure it's the manufacturer?  Granted, the enclosed leaf switch is a bit suspicious.

[pointdablame]

Those are the WICO knock-offs I mentioned previously, and mine was just as bad.  They are horrid joysticks.  There are cheap Chinese parts that will work fine as I mentioned, but these are not one of them.

The DreamArcade stuff seems decent, and the other cheaper Asian buttons will probably work just fine... they may just be a bit noisy.  But these joysticks just suck... don't waste your money.  Quite a few people on the boards have used these and I can't remember anyone keeping them for more than a day or two... they simply don't work well.

[ponyboy]

If you are going to build your own machine, stick with the parts that have been in the coin op industry for years.  I myself have been in the coin-op industry for 20 years and I would use nothing else but Happ/IL & Wico.  These parts are proven.  They might be a little more money but the reliability is there.  If you do not want to pay Happ's or Wico published prices shop around and you will find some bargains.  I myself happen to be a distributor for Happ/IL and Wico.  If you are in need of any parts please send me a PM.

Regards,

Ponyboy

[1UP]

One problem I have had with imitation parts is stiff springs.  It is almost universal that the knockoff/cheap parts use noticeably stiffer springs.  It's true with the X-Arcade buttons, and it's true with a lot of third party console controllers.  I have a nifty looking XBox controller that lights up and pulses, but it's hell on my hands due to heavier weight and stiffer springs.  So although it was cheaper, it wasn't really worth it if it causes injury, or even just unpleasant gaming.

Just my 2 cents, but you get what you pay for.

[DreamArcades]

Buttons from Dream Arcade: button is very nice.

[divemaster127]

If its not happ i just would not touch it, i mean you are only doing this once, also it all goes back to you get what you pay for,  i have used some of the asian buttons & they are junk...so spend the extra $10.00 & go happ

[MameJunkie]

I agree with pointdablame's point.

[Pik4chu]

If you find buttons for less than 75 cents let us know! Until then, X-arcade buttons are $1 each and their sticks are $10.

You might be able to save by scouring eBay...

The trick is : the X-arcade buttons and sticks are the cheapest that we have confirmed. You may save $10 by ordering from Asia but end up waiting 3 weeks for the order to come in the mail and maybe they'll fall apart after some use - or maybe they just won't be responsive in the first place.

You know there is no limit to how poor manufacturing standards can fall. Haven't you ever bought something that fell apart? The sticker read "Taiwan" and it was of such poor quality that it didn't hold up to nominal use? If not you are a young consumer and eventually will.

And I will second the other members : Happ is the industry standard for good reason, it's worth the extra bucks because on a cab the controls and screen are the most important parts - that's what your players will see and touch. I have Happ controls on my primary cabinet and every time I DON'T hear that "clickity clack" of the cheap microswitches I am happy.

But budget is always a factor, if budget does not allow for Happ