David Foley - Ultracade - Pinball controller

[DreamWeb]

Looks like David Foley/Ultracade is going to be getting into the Pinball controller business.



This was his attached message on the VPFORUMS.com

"We are in the midst of designing a new input device that will be compatible with VP and FP. This unit will be a USB based device. It will contain our pinball I/O controller which supports digital and analog inputs. It will have a motion sensor chip on board that will translate into table shaking input. It will have a real pinball plunger that can be digitially translated into the software.

There will be a "Deluxe" version with an LCD on the top that will allow the display of the SS tables onto the controller for added realism.

Any suggestions?

$129 for basic, $199 for deluxe are our target prices, it will depend on features."

Might be pretty neat to see if one of these things could be 'modified' to fit inside a home built cabinet.

http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35663

d.

[DreamWeb]

Actually.. the plot thickens...

"Greetings, we have recently licensed the Visual Pinball system from Randy Davis to use in an upcoming product. We have also licensed all of the classic tables from companies such as Williams and Bally. We are now beginning the project and would like to use some of the VP tables that you have created as a starting point. We would like to offer you a small royalty for every copy of every table that we sell that was originated from your work. Please let me know if you are interested.

-David"

http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35631

[Knievel]

That's cute. As much as I don't like the guy I'm interested to see how his Vpin table works out.
Being a big pinball/Vpinball fan the protype links in this thread give me goosebumps..in a good way.

http://www.retroblast.com/misc/vp_ultracade.html

[Scoobie]

If these are plasma TVs, they're known to get burn-in fairly easily.  If you left the machine on for any length of time, your set would be ruined...

[froggerman]

I don't think that is a plasma display, I think it is a 16x9 CRT. I have seen Toshiba televisions like that at Future Shop (Best Buy). The thing would weigh a ton!

[Tiger-Heli]

I hate to admit I think the controller is cool, although I'd hate to buy it from UC.

[Knievel]

It's a CRT..

[Lilwolf]

I don't think it will be worth it unless he gets the tilts using a real tilt type mechanism.

If he uses springs to hold the top from the bottom.  And interal buttons to determine when it gets a nudge... so you grap the top, have 2 buttons (one on each side) and you move the entire control panel to nudge left, right or up.

[prOk]

David Foley has a disgusting business ethic.   Resorting to cheap and illegal tricks to stop any kind of competition is pathetic at best.   I don't care if he's the only coin op company on earth, if you are going to behave that way I won't support you.   Beat your competition by supplying a more innovative product at a good price.. don't pretend you own something you don't and work to put someone else out of business.  UltraCade is not the only one with mouths to feed on the other side of the buck. 

/b

http://www.rgvac.com

[jimjim]

"As far as me, I'm just like you guys.  I build my own controls and my own cabinets, and I play all the mame games, and I collect real coin-op cabinets, just like you. "

If Mr. Foley had his way, your Mame(TM) cabinet would be illegal.  I find it ironic that you work for Ultracade and have a Mame(TM) cabinet.

[froggerman]

I am looking forward to seeing  more information out this product. Please keep us informed.

[jimjim]

My statement is false if you have Mame and only the Roms that are copies of the PCB boards that are in the machines that you own.

According to your statement, you own and play all the games in Mame.  From what I understand, Mr. Foley wanted to shut down all of the companies that were packaging cabinets with Mame, or can be used with Mame with the claims that they can play all of the games.

Mr. Foley was trying to protect his investment.  He had secured the rights of cetain roms to run on his emulator.  You say you have a Mame cabinet with all the roms.  If you have 4000 pcb boards, then yes, I am wrong. 

If you don't, then you are one of the reasons why Mr. Foley wanted the trademark for Mame. 

Sorry, thought I should point this out.  Have fun with your Mame cabinet. 

I think the approach Mr. Foley is taking with the pinball emulator is great.  As many people said, it is a win/win for everybody.  I think he should of used the same approach with the Mame community.

[Crazy Cooter]

How much abuse can that CRT take?  I know what happens when I hit the side of any TV I've owned...

[Crazy Cooter]

...I'm a coin-op video game developer, and if it weren't for David I'd be one of 20 programmers on some title from Electronic Arts or another game company in the Bay Area hidden in the credits for some game with a big license and a 50 million dollar development budget.

[quarterback]

David seriously got attacked because he was shutting down people's business to save our own.

David seriously got attacked because he made an attempt to take something that he had no legal right too.

I don't care how he rationalizes it to you, his goldfish or anybody else, the facts stay the same.

[Xiaou2]

 
 Regaurdless of anyones personal feelings twords the evil buisnessmen...

 He is bringing out a cool pinball controller and updating the pinball software.   He also seems more respectfull - even if that was because he had to learn the hard way.

 Even if i do not agree with his tactics,  I still admire the efforts on the pinball side of things.  And, if he does bring out an affordable pinball sensor system, I may add that to my collection without any troubles of consiousness.   The fact is simple.. not many people possess the money and technical power to pull off such a thing.   You have to at very least, respect that he admires the classics.. I think.

 I hope, that the pinball controller will have a Plunger that controls very realistically.   IE:  Maybe geared pot system.. or maybe a hall effect sensor system would be better.   

 As for the rest, I would also hope that maybe he look into makeing some other arcade parts that are sought after.. like a good Quality coil drivin recoil gun.   Maybe a starwars controller.  Force Feedback board and driver rework for mame output would be awesome. (ie: outrun shaker support, simuchair motor driver support, t2 gun coil output support, light outputs like spyhunter display, ect)

 And as always, youd hope that they would actually make thier own Original games rather than just re-release the classics.   

 The idea of the PC controlled arcade machine may have actually killed the arcades even faster than thier normal decline inteneded.   However, there is hope if these new physics chips and multiple chainable graphics cards can be instituted... so that the arcade hardware will beyond the scope of the home system for many many years.  (ie: the casual games may not be able to afford 6 graphics cards)


 I do wonder if maybe it would be better to have a true pinball display controller
instead of the LCD.    The look is much better IMOP.   At least make an output port for one.. so there is the option of using it with a real display.   A coil driver
would be nice too.. so the coil thumps would be felt.   And or use of trasducers to make the thumps and even bass effects would be good.

 

[KevSteele]

  I do wonder if maybe it would be better to have a true pinball display controller
instead of the LCD.

[Silver]

Mmmm yes the addition of an dot-matrix/LCD display would be good - and I think done by  people on this board before? Isn't support for them already built into one of the programs (or am I confused with daphne?).

Also the 'tilt' detector... all the ones I've seen in real machines (which isn't that many) are really really simple - you could make one in 5 minutes out of a coat hanger. Make a circle of metal (coat hanger would do), and a straight peice (also coat hanger metal). Hang the straight peice so it passes through the circle and hangs straight down (not touching the circle). Solder a wire to each, and then you've got a button input that will be pressed when ever the device is tilted. This is exactly like some I've seen in real pinball machines.

[Rook3]

Since I work in the amusement industry, I'm glad UC is around. Midway hurt a lot of people when they shut the Atari/Midway games West facility down with no advance notice.

And Rush2049 was the best driver put out in years. But no more.
How many large coin-op companies do we have left? Namco and Konami are the big 2. That's it. Sega shut down their AM2 division which created most of their best games in the last 10 years, but no more.

It's hard for an operator to make money these days when new equipment costs $5,000 and it takes years rather than months to show a ROI.

Yes, playstation and xbox contribute to the decline of the industry, but a large part of it is people who keep saying "Arcades are dead." Nothing p!$$es me off more when people say that. Our arcade has seen profits EVERY MONTH this year since Jan 1st. Know what hurt us the most in the last couple years? Walmart coming to town. That's what.

Ultracade isn't doing anything wrong in it's business. Okay, I do admit their add-on game packs for the UC system (of which we DO own one) are a bit high priced. I'd love to have the Dragon's Lair games in our cabinet, but there's no way I'll convince the owner to pay an additional $700 for a unit that takes in $20-30 a week. It's hard to break even kids, on a game that costs $3,000 at .25 a play.

I don't want to get into the whole "they shut down auctions...blah, blah, blah" arguement because the facts are out there as to the reasons and rational behind the decisions. View the facts and make up your own educated opinion. I do however feel that by and large, they are putting out a route useable product at a so-so price. Something the amusement industry at a whole really needs. The big game companies of the past are a memory, and unless people really do "support your local arcade" the industry will die as a whole, leaving nothing but pool tables and digital jukeboxes behind.

Russ

[jimjim]

It is not that UC was just trying to shut down auctions, he was also trying to shut down legitmate businesses.  All the way from cabinet businesses to marquee businesses by trademarking Mame.  As happy as you are that he is helping your arcade profit, think how upset people in the marquee and arcade cabinet making business were when they got their cease and desist notices.  He was trying to protect his interests, but went about it the wrong way.  According to Ahigh, it is possible (Don't know what parts are in his Mame machine), that his own employees are using things that Foley tried to control by trademarking Mame. 

I'm sure that the people that frequent your arcade are not the same people who were into the Mame scene.  I understand that he wanted to protect his investment, but I think he should of went about it differently.  I really don't think some of the owners of the businesses that received his letters will ever forgive him for trying to put them out of business.  If Mr. Foley would of distinguished between the home Mame cottage industries and the commercial arcade industries, I think many of these problems would of been avoided.  I never saw Mame in the arcades though.

On a more positive note, I think that Mr. Foley's pinball simulator looks awesome.  I would definitely be interested in purchasing one.  (How much is it going to cost?)  I am also impressed with the way Mr. Foley is going about this.  I also would like to see Mr. Foley get into making parts that people could use in their Mame cabinets.  Everybody would love to see a great duel light gun adaptor.  He could use that in his UC cabs in the arcades and make a bundle from Mame users.  Once again, two separate consumers.

[Rook3]

Sorry to go OT again, but weren't the people who got the C&D notices those who were making/selling Mame cabs running games that UC bought the rights to use legally from the original arcade manufacturers? I thought that was the argument.

Back On topic... I agree with you about making home controls though. I don't know how large the home sales Mame market really is these days. Like I said in one of the Act Labs threads, I'm very suprised nobody has made a PnP USB compatible pcb that uses Happ Controls arcade light guns, and is MAME compatible.

The UC pinball controller looks promising, it will be interesting to see how they really work the elusive "nudge" feature.

Russ

[jimjim]

Mamemarquees a small printing business got a C&D order because they printed marquees with the Mame logo.

[RayB]

Yes, playstation and xbox contribute to the decline of the industry, but a large part of it is people who keep saying "Arcades are dead." Nothing p!$$es me off more when people say that. Our arcade has seen profits EVERY MONTH this year since Jan 1st. Know what hurt us the most in the last couple years? Walmart coming to town. That's what.

It may pee you off, but the facts speak for themselves:

http://www.solvalou.com/arcade_death.php

[Rook3]

No, it's doesn't bother me. Well, it does, but not in the way you think.

I know that manufacturers have slowed down on new game production. It's not 1984 any more, when you could buy a new Ms. Pac cabinet, stick it on any street corner and have it paid off in a week. Those days are long gone. What bothers me are the people who are for whatever reason so dead set against arcades, that they pull the "Arcades are dead" flag whenever they decide to extoll the virtues of game console XYZ.

It's like saying "Movie theatres are dead" because DVDs were invented, or because peer to peer downloading exists.

Has arcade income decreased? yes. Do people still go to arcades? Yes. Not everyone has a dedicated cabinet in their home to play Gran Tourismo or whatever, but in the arcade you have steering wheels, pedals, etc. There are some games the home consoles can't quite match in terms of the gaming "experience."

I own all the Namco classics disks for the original PSX. Would I rather play those, with a game pad, or play Pac Man in a cabinet with a real joystick? Joystick all the way.

Tempest with a game pad or with a rotory knob? Knob. Street Fighter with a joystick and 6 buttons, or a gamepad? Stick and buttons. 

But that's just me. I grew up with arcade games, and my first console was the Intellevision. I skirted the whole NES craze that slammed the hammer down on the arcade industry in 1985. I didn't buy my first NES untill 1994 I think.

Each week I see kids come into the arcade that started coming in when they were perhaps 8 years old. Now they're 16-18 years old and while their gaming habits might have changed slightly (from 100% redemption games to a 60/40 arcade/redemption split) they still come in because at least in our area, we have something the console systems don't.

Will arcades ever completely die out? It's possible. Strongly possible. With recent world events and rising gas prices, it wouldn't shock me if in 5-10 years we shut our doors. It's sad that in 20 years we who grew up with arcades will be in our 50s-60s and our kids/grandkids won't know what an arcade is, aside from the odd classic game in our basement or the occasional Mame cabinet.

Shoot, I just realized I was on a soapbox. Sorry about that. 

I am interested in seeing what Ultracade can do as far as their pinball cabinet.

We'll just have to wait and see, won't we?

Russ

[RandyT]

It's like saying "Movie theatres are dead" because DVDs were invented....

Errr...if everyone had the setup I have in my living room and movies were released on DVD the same time as in the theaters, yes, the theatres would be dead as well.  This is essentially what has happened to the arcades.  Better than arcade quality games at home, usually on a bigger screen, better sound, and more comfortable playing conditions (sofa, etc...)

Has arcade income decreased? yes. Do people still go to arcades? Yes. Not everyone has a dedicated cabinet in their home to play Gran Tourismo or whatever, but in the arcade you have steering wheels, pedals, etc. There are some games the home consoles can't quite match in terms of the gaming "experience."

And these are exactly the types of games you see currently in the arcade.  Unfortunately all that fancy fiberglass and control mechanisms cost over $10,000 a clip, forcing owners to charge a buck per play, forcing players to think twice about playing it more than a few times....  And no, just having a spinner on a machine to play Tempest properly isn't going to offer the same thrills.

The "rule of thumb" according to everything I have seen is:

Unless you can offer the gamer an experience they cannot achieve at home, or have a "killer app" that is not yet available on the home platforms, you are destined for only mediocre results if not failure altogether.

Maybe your situation is different where you live, but I assure you that the closing of the small arcades across the country and the continued struggles for profit facing the ones that remain is a very real situation.  And the people who point it out to you with well thought out reasons are not the ones to blame for it.  The market has spoken.

RandyT

[Crazy Cooter]

I don't see how the UC pinball machine could last a week in a "real" atmosphere.  It's home-use only in my mind.  Put one in front of a group of kids and watch how hard they hit it when they find out they can "nudge" the ball... monitor will be toast.

UC broke the law when it came to the TM stuff.  I can provide legal docs.

[Grasshopper]

It's like saying "Movie theatres are dead" because DVDs were invented....

Errr...if everyone had the setup I have in my living room and movies were released on DVD the same time as in the theaters, yes, the theatres would be dead as well.  This is essentially what has happened to the arcades.  Better than arcade quality games at home, usually on a bigger screen, better sound, and more comfortable playing conditions (sofa, etc...)

Has arcade income decreased? yes. Do people still go to arcades? Yes. Not everyone has a dedicated cabinet in their home to play Gran Tourismo or whatever, but in the arcade you have steering wheels, pedals, etc. There are some games the home consoles can't quite match in terms of the gaming "experience."

And these are exactly the types of games you see currently in the arcade.  Unfortunately all that fancy fiberglass and control mechanisms cost over $10,000 a clip, forcing owners to charge a buck per play, forcing players to think twice about playing it more than a few times....  And no, just having a spinner on a machine to play Tempest properly isn't going to offer the same thrills.

The "rule of thumb" according to everything I have seen is:

Unless you can offer the gamer an experience they cannot achieve at home, or have a "killer app" that is not yet available on the home platforms, you are destined for only mediocre results if not failure altogether.

Maybe your situation is different where you live, but I assure you that the closing of the small arcades across the country and the continued struggles for profit facing the ones that remain is a very real situation.  And the people who point it out to you with well thought out reasons are not the ones to blame for it.  The market has spoken.

RandyT

You make some valid points but you're ignoring the social aspect of going to an arcade or a movie theatre. It's a bit like saying that pubs will go out of business because it is far cheaper to buy alcohol from a supermarket. Yes, you can invite friends to your house to play games/see films but it's not quite the same.

The arcade industry's strategy of focusing on games that require specialised controls seems logical at first glance. But I think it's doing more harm than good because it's causing the per play price of arcade games to exceed the price that the market will bear. Maybe there is no answer but the current strategy is clearly failing.

[shmokes]

I love watching people (including Foley) try to defend Foley.   They always point to a few of the things he did and say, "Look....maybe you don't like it, but this is what anybody would do in his situation."  And then when people point to all the things he did that were clearly unethical and illegal they simply don't respond.  And that's exactly what Ahigh is doing here.  Complete silence on trying to trademark the MAME logo.  Complete silence on trying to shut down Marquee makers.

So Dave has a business to protect.  Dave has to pay his bills and put food on his and his employees tables.  Well, so do the people who have businesses on Ebay.  They make a living there.  Dave was having auctions pulled, knowing full well that he had no legal or ethical grounds to do so, merely because it helped his business and he knows that Ebay is easily manipulated in that way. 

There's a word for that.  It's called sabotage.  And it ain't right no matter how good it is for business. 

[RandyT]

You make some valid points but you're ignoring the social aspect of going to an arcade or a movie theatre. It's a bit like saying that pubs will go out of business because it is far cheaper to buy alcohol from a supermarket. Yes, you can invite friends to your house to play games/see films but it's not quite the same.

Yes, but there's a major difference between the social interaction in a pub and what takes place in the arcades.  In an arcade, the main draw is (was) the games.  In the pub, unless you are a horribly lonely alcoholic, the attraction is the social interaction.  The alcohol is merely the lubrication for the "social machinery".

I mean, who seriously went to an arcade hoping to take home a member of the opposite sex after a display of prowess at a video game?  I'm not sure those guys that live on the DDR machines are even interested in that kind of thing (it's a joke.....nobody get offended   )

As for the movies, again, different than the pub.  I'm willing to bet that very few people go to the theatres to hear the drunks make jokes, get crowded out by the person next to them wearing  too much (or not enough  ) cologne or to have difficulty seeing the screen over the "8ft clown with the scare-do in the seat in front of you".  A private setting with an 8-10 ft screen, digital Dolby 5.1 or better, comfortable seats and some friends will beat that out every time.  The only thing that causes a problem is the lack of simultaneous releases in both venues.  This was often talked about a few years back, yet it has not happened.  IMHO, this is why.

RandyT

[Xiaou2]

 I stopped playing New arcade games when they got crappy looking 3d graphics and the gameplay was way too easy.

 I liked a race game like  Outrun.. where if you hit something your car flipped over into a spectacular wreck.   In the later race games,  you could hit a high curb and it would just move your car back by itself.   

 I played fighters like Tekken III just fine in the arcades, even tho I could play it on psx.   Theres was a thrill about playing in the arcade that you didnt get at home.

  There was also almost no origianlity left.   After Streetfight 10,000..  there were also 10,000 sf clones.   Or all gun games.

 No dual control games like Tron.  No spinners, 360 wheels,  or anything of a complex or different/original nature.

 Nothing anywhere near Robotron difficult and boaring as hell.

 The games also started all this ' add coins to continue '  crap.. so the game became more like watching a movie.   Almost no challenge at all.   Worthless.

 There were a few titles that came arround that probably saved the arcades deaths.. but they just were not enough.   They dissapear every day.

 I tell you..  it doesnt matter if the gfx are worse  than the best console.   Just make something that is a damn challenge and is FUN to play.. and it will make money just cause its calling your name to play it - and you are physically there.

  Put a limit on its arcade to home conversion for at least 1.5 yr.. and there should be no problem.

 Make things that you cant get at home.. like moving cockpit with 3d glasses that are worm,  to add the the impact. 

 make a Skill game that is fun and skillfull.   Something that an adult would do, just because its tough and fun.   Not like these gambling type games.. which rely more on luck and payout percents than actual skill : (   If skee-ball were made today, there would be no balls.. and the virtual ball would be electronically moved by a payout percent!       Can you tell Im an angry classic gamer?!

 

[KevSteele]

 I stopped playing New arcade games when they got crappy looking 3d graphics and the gameplay was way too easy.

 I liked a race game like

[Minwah]

I've always wondered about the lack of damage in racing games, and just recently read that the reason is licensing, of all things! It seems car makers license their cars to be included in games, under the condition that the car never get damaged.

Basically, these days if you want to include realistic damage modeling, it seems you need to have 'generic' cars...

Yeah this is true.  Project Gotham 2 (maybe the first one too) is an example of a game with real cars and damage...

[Crazy Cooter]

I was very happy to ignore it all and enjoy my day-to-day keeping my callouses built up from the home-brewed force-feedback steering wheel and 6 channel audio while linking with the entire team on an 8-way race every day.
...
If I was just a technical person, and not a coin-op enthusiast, I never would have left the consumer market for coin-op in the first place.

*drools*
The world needs some better race games... especially linked.

[ChadTower]

Aaron, don't let the naysayers drive you out of here.  I'm very excited about the potential of what you guys are building.  Tell us more about it, please.