Starroms

[steptoe]

If i pay for a game and dl it from starroms, can then build a cab putt hat game in it and sell it, the cab only, the game is for free. The question im asking is, just because i paid to dl it, it dosent mean its mine , what if i had the pcb

[steptoe]

Just to add

How about the people who sell complete rom sets, they are not selling roms just the media they come on ?. Is it copyright of the emultor or ROM, im thinking both ?.
Just trying to understand how it all works.

[Adeptus]

How about the people who sell complete rom sets, they are not selling roms just the media they come on ?

So... selling pirated DVDs is not selling the movie just the media it comes on?
selling a photocopy of a book is not selling the book just the paper it comes on?

[saint]

The terms of StarRoms indicate you cannot transfer ownership. You *can* buy the ROMs in your user's name.

Selling ROM cd collections for the cost of the materials only is still illegal no matter how it's painted. Morally it's your own judgement call, but there's no doubt that it is illegal.

--- saint

[steptoe]

I agree with you all, if i had a webiste selling copied movies how long do you think ill be trading for, not long. Do these rom dvd sellers have immunity or who could be bothered ?

[Adeptus]

I think because emulation is still relatively obscure (though it seems to be becoming more mainstream & popular all the time) and maybe also because most people who play arcade emulators would never buy the genuine cabinet/PCB anyway (ie no loss of potential sales), the arcade manufacturers haven't been enforcing their copyright as much as the music, movie, & home software companies have been.

[USSEnterprise]

I have another question then. If you set up a dedicated MAME cab, using StarROMs ROMs, can you charge money?

[elvis]

I have another question then. If you set up a dedicated MAME cab, using StarROMs ROMs, can you charge money?

ROM liceneses are NOT transferrable.  I cannot download a ROM and resell it to someone.  That is illegal.

What I can do is download the ROMs on behalf of someone else.  And I cannot charge extra for the ROMs.

What we (and other cabinet builders) do is charge for the parts and labour of building the actual cabinet.  The software side of things is probably the easiest part of an emulation-based cabinet, and anyone claiming they need to charge hours of labour time is having a go at you.  Downloading 27 legal ROMs off the net to save to a folder hardly warrants labour charges, in my humble opinion.

In order to supply StarROMs ROMs running off MAME, you need permission from both StarROMs Inc and MAMEDev.  The process is quite simple.  Just email them stating your business intentions, and then agree to their terms and conditions when they approve.

For instance: when bundling MAME with cabinets and StarROMs ROM files, you MUST recompile MAME to only support the games that are sold with the cabinet.  Not difficult at all, as it's just a matter of changing the driver file and setting the compile off.  If you don't like the conditions, then tough luck.  And fair enough really, considering you're using it at no cost.

So to answer your question: Yes, you can sell cabinets with StarROMs ROMs and MAME bundled, and make money from the cabinet itself.  Provided you obtain permission for using the software first, and play by the rules.

The full license restrictions are available at the respective license owner's websites.  They are the first place to check if you believe anyone is breaching license agreements.

[USSEnterprise]

thats not what I meant. I meant setting it up with Star ROMs and charge people to play, with a coin door.

[elvis]

thats not what I meant. I meant setting it up with Star ROMs and charge people to play, with a coin door.

Absolutely not.  The StarROMs license agreement states specifically that the games are for single ownership only, and only for personal use.

This is a single-use license.  You cannot charge people to use the product after purchase.  Just like you can't rent/buy a DVD and charge people to come to your house and watch it.  For that, you need to apply for a special distribution license which costs substantially more.

To date, only Ultracade offers commercial distribution licenses for ROMs.  Outside of that, your only option is to purchase an orioginal game board.

Again, all of this information is on the StarROMs website.  Read their FAQs and license agreements if you have any uncertainty about what the legal options for their software are.

[Lilwolf]

btw, the ultracade 'solution'.  Its actually MUCH cheaper to buy boards on ebay.  Then there are multi jamma connectors to allow 5-10 jamma boards onto one machine.

Owning the board doesn't always allow you to run it on other hardware.  But morally I think its ok.  (ie, if you have all the boards your running in the cabinet it should be ok... trouble with that is its NOT ok with MAME... so you would have to write an emulator to do it).

I tried to get a solution with mame a while ago.  A friend owned a few arcades and he had rooms of old boards laying around that got convertered.  He was hoping to build up a few mame machines that only ran 10-30 games and he was willing to store the original boards in the machine itself as 'proof' and even to create his own roms (he had all the chip readers).  But it was a no-go on MAME side.  And that made it just a no-go no matter what.

[Havok]

I think because emulation is still relatively obscure (though it seems to be becoming more mainstream & popular all the time) and maybe also because most people who play arcade emulators would never buy the genuine cabinet/PCB anyway (ie no loss of potential sales), the arcade manufacturers haven't been enforcing their copyright as much as the music, movie, & home software companies have been.

Quite a few of these ROMs fall under the relatively new law that defines software that is not sold or supported by a company as obsolete software, and no longer subject to copywrite protection. Titles that are actively being sold\supported are not covered under this law, so PacMan for example is definitely out. However, a large number of them are "safe" for the moment. Hooray for the little guy!

[saint]

I'm fairly certain that is incorrect.

The DMCA prohibits circumventing copy protection techniques. However, an exemption was granted a year or two ago for obsolete technology. The important point is that allowing the circumvention of copy protection techniques is not at all the same as voiding the copyright itself. Copyrights are still measured in decades (70 years or so I think for our purposes, but I don't have my research in front of me).

The results:

MAME, which circumvents copy protection in a variety of ways, is legal under these terms. Obtaining a copy of a ROM that runs in MAME that has not been purchased legally (or that has not been released by the copyright holder) is not legal.

--- saint

I think because emulation is still relatively obscure (though it seems to be becoming more mainstream & popular all the time) and maybe also because most people who play arcade emulators would never buy the genuine cabinet/PCB anyway (ie no loss of potential sales), the arcade manufacturers haven't been enforcing their copyright as much as the music, movie, & home software companies have been.

Quite a few of these ROMs fall under the relatively new law that defines software that is not sold or supported by a company as obsolete software, and no longer subject to copywrite protection. Titles that are actively being sold\supported are not covered under this law, so PacMan for example is definitely out. However, a large number of them are "safe" for the moment. Hooray for the little guy!

[Crazy Cooter]

Long story short:

* STARROMS are licensed for home use only and must be "registered" in the end users name.  Contact both STARROMS and the MAMEdevs if you want to sell cabinets that have it installed and running.  That way you will be 110% legal.  [disclaimer: I'm not associated with STARROMS, but they totally rock!]

* ULTRACADE has two systems.  One for home use only called "Arcade Legends" and one for a commercial (meaning money generating) setting called "Ultracade".  Their ROM licenses are expensive because they paid for this "extra" license use.  If you plan on using their system in a commercial setting, you need the "right" system from them.  [disclaimer: I have serious issue with these guys and will never, ever do business with them.]

* ROM burners that sell DVD sets are in the grey area of the law.  Internet sites also fall in this grey area.  Some say it's legal, some say it's not, most agree it's undefined.

* The best way IMO to set up a cabinet in a commercial setting is to just use jamma boards.  Cheap, easy, & effective.

[SirPoonga]

What saint said
Copy protection does not equal copyright!

The law says it is legal to break protection, like encryption techniques.  Copywrite still applies in that you have to legally own it.

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

[Havok]

What saint said
Copy protection does not equal copyright!

The law says it is legal to break protection, like encryption techniques.

[SirPoonga]

bah! Abandonware in my book. Most of the owners of the IP - (a concept I have serious problems with) don't even care about 20 year old ROM usage, or are dead. Granted, I seriously believe in the policy that MAME devs practice - no emulation for games that are still in production, or less than three years old. I say the old stuff however is up for grabs!

I agree, with games, if they are 3-5 years old they are obsolete and not making money anymore.  There's some oddities like pacman, counter strike, etc... but for the most part no one is going to bother with them.  Still doesn't mean it isn't illegal.  There's  jus ta good chance on the old stuff no one is going to care.

You do have to worry about the big name companies though.  Capcom, Namco and Midway own the rights to alot of arcade titles through their ventures.

[ultramagnus]

hmm, heres a question, now IIRC, i remember reading that it is legal to download and use roms as long as you have the original cart, now i assume that would apply the same if you owned the PCB of a arcade machine.  so this begs the question that legally, if you had the permission of MAMEdev, and had the original pcb of a arcade game, could you use MAME and the ROM of that game to make money (as in have a coin door ect)?

[SirPoonga]

hmm, heres a question, now IIRC, i remember reading that it is legal to download and use roms as long as you have the original cart, now i assume that would apply the same if you owned the PCB of a arcade machine.  so this begs the question that legally, if you had the permission of MAMEdev, and had the original pcb of a arcade game, could you use MAME and the ROM of that game to make money (as in have a coin door ect)?

First, no, you can't use mame to make money, read the mame license.

Second, if you have a cart of a game, I assume you mean like the NES cart Double Dragon means you can have the arcade.  No, those are different software on different machines.

If you own the PCB that's a grey area.   The purpose of allowing one backup of software is so you can run off that backup instead of the original so you don't ruin the original.  It's not incase you loose/damage the original, then the backup is no longer valid since it's original doesn't exist.  And that's the grey area, a rom backup can't really be used in place.  You could burn the software to a new rom and repair a broken PCB if the ROM chips went bad, but that's pretty rare compared to all the other problems arcade games can have.  Not much can really go wrong with Read Only Memory other than maybe burning out due to too high a voltage from a hardware fault.

But, like everything, there's always exceptions.  Look at Williams, they have roms for their pins on their website.  There is an agreement to download them I believe.  Those files are meant to repair an existing rom.  It's kinda hard to make a bootleg copy of a pinball machine, you need to copy the playfield, mechanics, and computer.  Yeah, I don't think Williams has to worry about people taking their roms and selling their property illegally as much as a video game manufacturer.

The reason this is a grey area is the license agreement and copyright laws at the time the game was introduced.  How does today's laws fit with their license. 

[Havok]

hmm, heres a question, now IIRC, i remember reading that it is legal to download and use roms as long as you have the original cart, now i assume that would apply the same if you owned the PCB of a arcade machine.

[SirPoonga]

That's the thing - I think this is a common misconception. You can't download them, you have to back them up yourself. Difficult to disprove, however I think that is the main stipulation.

True, it needs ot be a backup of your copy.  However, since most arcade games don't have a unique identifier in the software what your burn from your PCB is going to be the same as what someone else burns.  So there is no way to know if it came from you or not.

I could get the same chips (or modern compatible) that my asteroids uses, burn the software from starroms onto them ,and plug them into my pcb.  It should work.  It's the same code, nothing unique from machine to machine about it.  No registration key or what have you like computer software.

Very few and mostly more modern games have some sort of way of telling if software was taken out or some unique identifier per chip burned.

The funny thing is it wouldn't be impossible to completely make my own asteroids with vector monitor.  The hardest part is finding a tub and possible a yoke that mounts to the tube.  Otherwise for asteroids all the schematics are out there (see my asteroids post in arcade misc).  It would just require understanding the schematics, finding the parts, burning the roms.

[Adeptus]

If you own the PCB that's a grey area. The purpose of allowing one backup of software is so you can run off that backup instead of the original so you don't ruin the original. It's not incase you loose/damage the original, then the backup is no longer valid since it's original doesn't exist. And that's the grey area, a rom backup can't really be used in place.

I believe that there's a clause in the DMCA that says if the original hardware required to run the software is obsolete (ie no longer supported) you are allowed to transfer that software to another format in order to run it on current hardware, ie if you own an arcade PCB (or at least the ROM chips since they contain the software) then you are allowed to copy the ROMs to computer & play by emulator.

This was added after some people expressed concern about the amount of software that would be 'lost' due to all the original media, and hardware required to read it, failing.
(so from my understanding this covers all retro consoles & everything up to 5.25" PC floppy disks)
You must still legally own the original, even if it's unusable

Note this is a US law only. Europe have a different one (similar I think) and we in Australia are still in the dark ages... can't legally backup your own music CDs...

[SirPoonga]

If you own the PCB that's a grey area. The purpose of allowing one backup of software is so you can run off that backup instead of the original so you don't ruin the original. It's not incase you loose/damage the original, then the backup is no longer valid since it's original doesn't exist. And that's the grey area, a rom backup can't really be used in place.

I believe that there's a clause in the DMCA that says if the original hardware required to run the software is obsolete (ie no longer supported) you are allowed to transfer that software to another format in order to run it on current hardware, ie if you own an arcade PCB (or at least the ROM chips since they contain the software) then you are allowed to copy the ROMs to computer & play by emulator.

Yeah, again, needs to be battled in court to determine what obsolete actually means.  Z80 processors are still around and popular (in robotics) so the hardware for many arcade games is still available.

[ultramagnus]

If you own the PCB that's a grey area. The purpose of allowing one backup of software is so you can run off that backup instead of the original so you don't ruin the original. It's not incase you loose/damage the original, then the backup is no longer valid since it's original doesn't exist. And that's the grey area, a rom backup can't really be used in place.

I believe that there's a clause in the DMCA that says if the original hardware required to run the software is obsolete (ie no longer supported) you are allowed to transfer that software to another format in order to run it on current hardware, ie if you own an arcade PCB (or at least the ROM chips since they contain the software) then you are allowed to copy the ROMs to computer & play by emulator.

Yeah, again, needs to be battled in court to determine what obsolete actually means.  Z80 processors are still around and popular (in robotics) so the hardware for many arcade games is still available.

really, obsolete means "no longer produced or supported with spares", but that is open to interpretation, ie, does it mean every single resistor and chip on the board or whole boards and components

[SirPoonga]

Right, that's my point.  You need to have a good definition of obsolete.  The one in the act is too vague.

[ultramagnus]

anyone know what UK law is on this?

[Lilwolf]

btw, I believe they are talking about the entire item.  There are clauses about replacements being available, but not repairs. 

Because with that....  The parallel port doggles (part of what this law was really for) you could fix by taking it apart and replacing thatever part is changed.  The level of fix for some seems like impossibilities to others.  Heck, look at pinball repairs.  They often get to board level repairs.  Where computers are board level repairs.  Where other components (harddrives) are replacement only. 

So I thought the law was specific to replacements by authorized dealers.  IE, if the companies under... or they don't fix it... its fair game.

[teef2]

The UK Law would only be able to enforce the copyright and/or patents if they had be registered internationally. I fairly sure you can assume they would be.

Anyway, I personally HATE this whole idea of building a money making cab using Star-Roms or MAME and Roms sourced "elsewhere".

It's sad, but i suspect inevitable, that this happens in any walk of life related to something akin to this hobby. Still, I'd love to see the business plan the makes you money from this enterprise!