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Author Topic: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards  (Read 3948 times)

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Taborious

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Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« on: July 29, 2005, 02:40:37 pm »
Is there a real difference between an integradted sound card versus a pci card? Does the integraded steal CPU time or anything?
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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2005, 04:17:40 pm »
Onboard sound does steal CPU cycles.  I know for PC gaming, its advisable to disable onboard sound in order to increase the # of fps. 

For MAME, I don't know how much it would affect newer games so I will leave that to another person who is more qualified.  For older games, I doubt it matters at all. 

In my cabinet, I use onboard sound for now FWIW.  I have not noticed any problems, but I have not played many newer games.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2005, 04:38:34 pm »
I'm trying to streamline my MAME machine for some CHD games. I'm looking at stripping down the XP "kernel" as it were (services) and trying to get as much horsepower as I can out of it. From a CHD post I had a week or so ago the CHD's need CPU and lots of it for some of the games. going to try to eliminate all uneccasary services and disable the NIC remove norton AV basically anything that will take CPU from MAME. also running mame32 under mamewah I need to switch that to just mame...
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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2005, 04:42:22 pm »
I've had 2 different boards with onboard audio - both
stunk where there were skips in sounds.. or
static in background of sounds....

I got PCI audio cards ($14 range) and all is well in the world.
I'll never use onboard.
...so I will ask you... "Deal, or No Deal?"

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2005, 05:36:03 pm »
I've always used onboard audio without a problem. Using onboard audio may be a hinrance, but it's going to be really hard to guage exactly how much it hurts. I would assume it's negligible. If you're satisfied with the sound coming out of the onboard audio, you're probably ok wiht keeping it. If it sounds bad get a dedicated card.


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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2005, 05:52:58 pm »
What about sound quality?  In terms of RFI from the system components and such, I mean, rather than the quality of the D/A synthesis itself.  I suppose a cheap solution of any kind won't fare well in that regard...  any recommendations or thoughts?

(Side note - whether a sound device steals cycles depends on the audio chipset used more than onboard vs. off...)
---GEC

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2005, 05:56:53 pm »
They say to combat interference, the goal is to get the audio device as far away from everything else inside the PC as possible. The best way to do that would be to use a PCI sound card and install it in the last PCI slot away from all the other cards and the rest of the motherboard and drives.


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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2005, 06:23:41 pm »
Sound Blaster is claiming 33% increase on FPS, over onboard sound, with their next gen cards due to hardware accelerated 3D sound.

Sounds too good to be true, but I will certainly check it out

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2005, 06:32:47 pm »
Like anything they are all different.  Check out the mboards with the built in soundstorm.  The one I have sounds better then my other rig running a soundblaster live.  You would probably need an Audigy 2 or similar to sound better.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2005, 06:34:31 pm »
Ok, I could see a difference for 3D processing, but when you're talking about emulation you're talking about flat mono or stereo sound. I don't think it'll make a difference one way or another.


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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2005, 07:34:01 pm »
I'm not worried about the sound quailty per say, we're talking about emulation so even a cheap sound card will be fine. I'm not playing DVDs and looking for THX sound or something. I'm more concerned about how much it steals from the CPU to process sound. I'm looking to get as many cycles dedicated to MAME for CHD games so they are playable. So I need to squeeze as much out of the CPU as I can. I though that moving the cycles away from the onboard sound might help...
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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2005, 09:36:17 pm »
I'm not worried about the sound quailty per say, we're talking about emulation so even a cheap sound card will be fine. I'm not playing DVDs and looking for THX sound or something. I'm more concerned about how much it steals from the CPU to process sound. I'm looking to get as many cycles dedicated to MAME for CHD games so they are playable. So I need to squeeze as much out of the CPU as I can. I though that moving the cycles away from the onboard sound might help...


For the lowest cpu cycles either use an add-on pci card or a motherboard with soundstorm as it is built into the southbridge and is not a codec like other motherboards with built-in sound. 

Even a newer AC-97 codec will steal 15% from the cpu......

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2005, 12:03:02 am »
Even a newer AC-97 codec will steal 15% from the cpu......
Can you back that up? That's a bold statement when you do the math. If 15% of a 2.8GHz processor is being tied up, you're saying it would take the full strength of a new computer built just a few years ago just to power the sound in Windows and nothing else? That's hard to swallow.


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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2005, 12:41:02 am »
Changing soundcards won't do bugger all to improve your system preformance.  You might see 1-2% if you're lucky, but in the longrun it matters squat.

MAME always has and always will be CPU limited.  If you need more speed then either upgrade, or try some overclocking.  The system I'm typing this from now is an AthlonXP 2600+ (1.9GHz) overclocked to around 3200+ speeds (2.2GHz).  I'm seeing a temperature difference of about +3 degrees, and no system instability.  Not bad  - a 15% speed boost for $0 outlay.

My dedicated cabinet system runs an AthlonXP 1800+ and an old via KT266 board.  I got the CPU for free from a client's upgrade, and the board was left over from a system upgrade some time back.  I know the general concencus here is to run emulators on stupidly low-end hardware (people are forever asking if their Pentium 133 is enough) but honestly, with 1-2GHz CPUs costing spare change these days (and compare that to how much we all spend on tools, timber, monitors, ArcadeVGA cards, buttons etc) why not spend a few bucks and upgrade?

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2005, 05:00:15 am »
I'm not worried about the sound quailty per say, we're talking about emulation so even a cheap sound card will be fine. I'm not playing DVDs and looking for THX sound or something. I'm more concerned about how much it steals from the CPU to process sound. I'm looking to get as many cycles dedicated to MAME for CHD games so they are playable. So I need to squeeze as much out of the CPU as I can. I though that moving the cycles away from the onboard sound might help...


For the lowest cpu cycles either use an add-on pci card or a motherboard with soundstorm as it is built into the southbridge and is not a codec like other motherboards with built-in sound.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2005, 12:10:42 pm »
Ignoring the CPU cycle debate, my experience with on-board audio has never been good. To anyone who claims they hear no difference, I suggest you put on headphones. You will be amazed at the amount of noise, buzzing, pops you hear. And the worst part is when you move your mouse around, the noises increase.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2005, 12:12:49 pm »
Ignoring the CPU cycle debate, my experience with on-board audio has never been good. To anyone who claims they hear no difference, I suggest you put on headphones. You will be amazed at the amount of noise, buzzing, pops you hear. And the worst part is when you move your mouse around, the noises increase.



Again, depends on board..

Hell my Ic7-G onboard was GREAT until recently.. "basic" sound, i havent noticed to much of a difference.. but there has been a little performance increase (very little) and i have nicer reverb now :P

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2005, 01:06:41 pm »
I'm trying to streamline my MAME machine for some CHD games. I'm looking at stripping down the XP "kernel" as it were (services) and trying to get as much horsepower as I can out of it. From a CHD post I had a week or so ago the CHD's need CPU and lots of it for some of the games. going to try to eliminate all uneccasary services and disable the NIC remove norton AV basically anything that will take CPU from MAME. also running mame32 under mamewah I need to switch that to just mame...

There is this program called "EndItAll" Which kills all unnecessary processes in Windows. I use it when I run MAME and other very graphics intensive games.
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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2005, 05:09:58 pm »
Check this link out for a comparison.

http://www.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2005, 05:26:42 pm »
Check this link out for a comparison.

http://www.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/
Well no wonder. That's with 3D audio. Emulation doesn't use anything of the sort. It doesn't take that kind of power. Similarly to the way a fancy graphics card won't help you in MAME, neither will fancy audio.

If you're concerned about audio causing a problem, drop your sample rate. Don't bother getting a seperate card.


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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2005, 06:07:32 pm »
Check this link out for a comparison.

http://www.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/

I wasn't aware MAME used any sort of 3D positional audio, EAX, realtime effects, etc...

For better or for worse MAME treats a soundcard as a dumb output stream.  You could slap a $10,000 all-hardware pro audio card in your system and not see a single extra frame per second in MAME.  And likewise, even the cheapest and nastiest of soundcards isn't going to impede your system's performance, as every sound card out there still does the standard raw audio-out in hardware. 

C'mon folks... MAME is not a 3D FPS with EAX and 3D audio.  Apples and oranges!

For the Nth time: if you want more speed out of MAME, get a faster CPU.  All the tweaks, hacks, 3rd party software and non-CPU hardware in the world won't see you more than ~1-2% gain or loss.  1-2GHz CPUs and boards are available for spare change these days, and are the best way to play the newer games rather than struggle with that old 300MHz junk-box.  It's not like 1984 where a CPU cost you a grand any more.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2005, 08:02:07 pm »
I just built a machine for classics. I bought a brand new motherboard with on-board Via 1GHz processor for $53 plus tax. It has on-board audio and video. Memory, and a CF card kept the price under $100.

Of course, that won't be running CHD games.


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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2005, 06:14:44 pm »
Well sense the concensus is faster not tweaks, anyone know of any dual processor boards for pentium chips? not xeon and what not, but just the P4 intel processors???
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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2005, 06:18:28 pm »
Well sense the concensus is faster not tweaks, anyone know of any dual processor boards for pentium chips? not xeon and what not, but just the P4 intel processors???
A. Could get a single-socket P4 board and get a Pentium D.
I think ALL P4s have hyper-threading, which lets it "fake" being dual procs.

Could also get an Atholon. They outperform P4s.


Dual proc/dual core won't gain you a whole lot in MAME, as it's single-threaded and thus can't use but one core of one processor.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2005, 11:36:44 pm »
One other thing I have found increases FPS in MAME is to play around with the resolution.  It seems somtimes MAME picks a higher resolution for a game under the 'auto' setting than is necessary.  Manually specifying 320x240 in Area51 for example helped my framerates tremendously (gave me about 20 additional FPS).

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2005, 04:42:42 am »
Well sense the concensus is faster not tweaks, anyone know of any dual processor boards for pentium chips? not xeon and what not, but just the P4 intel processors???

The P4 cannot be used in a dual processor configuration.  Only the Xeon can.  That's intel's way of keeping server/workstation components high cost, and controlling a market.

MAME is single threaded on Win32.  AdvanceMAME under Linux is the only SMP MAME available, but the improvements are not worth the cost, simply because the emulation of 99% of the components is still very serial, and only minor offloading of blitting effects will occur, giving you not much more than 5 FPS extra on blit-limited stuff (ie: if you use HQ4X style AA effects in software).

If you want fast MAME, get the fastest single CPU you can afford (or are prepared to spend money on).  There's no black magic, dark sciences or secret handshakes.  For MAME-style emulation, speed is king.

Other non-accurate emulators perform all sorts of hacks and trickery to speed things up.  These will benefit greatly from your usual gaming-PC tweaks and tricks.  MAME is a totally different kettle of fish.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2005, 05:58:30 am »

 Some Onboard chips have great quality... however, theres almost always going to be a tradeoff of cpu performance.

 On one older system I had.. I think it was a PIII550.   I had a software modem and onbaord sound enabled.   Everything seemed fine..  till I tried to install a dvd player.

 The frames skipped like mad and the system just couldnt handle it for some reason. Even though, the specs should have been fine.  I had plenty of ram.

 A pc guru freind came over, and told me I had to remove and replace the software modem with a hardware modem and to put in a real soundcard.

 I thought he was full of crap...  but eventaully, I decided to try.

 After that, all worked well.  No more frame drops, lockups, ..ect.  Clear and clean as a dream.  Im sure mame was sped up too... but I forgot to take before and after framerates.

 The onboard components tend to use your system ram.  Some also use software to run them instead of direct hardware chips (simular to emulation!)..  which really does eat up more horsepower than youd think.   


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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2005, 06:06:53 am »

 On one older system I had.. I think it was a PIII550.   I had a software modem and onbaord sound enabled.

The era of soundcards on PIII boards compared to the AC'97 stuff on cards today are LIGHTYEARS apart.  Don't confuse the average intel/nvidia/via onboard sound on P4 and AthlonXP boards today with the horrible CMI (and the like) stuff they used to bundle on boards back in the day.

I have an old PCI add-in CMI sound card, and it slows down any system I plug it in to.  That was the chipset itself, and not whether the unit was onboard or standalone.

Times have changed a bit since then.

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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2005, 01:25:58 pm »
People don't seem to understand that multi-processor boards require software that actually makes use of this feature. For example, many years ago you needed Windows NT 4 and then the apps you ran had to be made to use the multiCPUs (software like 3D Studio Mac for example used the multi processors, but Photoshop did not).

I'll assume XP supports multi-processors, since it's a descendant of 2000 which is a descendant of NT, but I think apps still need to be designed to use the multi-CPUs.
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Re: Integrated vs Card - Sounds Cards
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2005, 05:12:09 pm »
People don't seem to understand that multi-processor boards require software that actually makes use of this feature. For example, many years ago you needed Windows NT 4 and then the apps you ran had to be made to use the multiCPUs (software like 3D Studio Mac for example used the multi processors, but Photoshop did not).

I'll assume XP supports multi-processors, since it's a descendant of 2000 which is a descendant of NT, but I think apps still need to be designed to use the multi-CPUs.


It isn't as cut and dry as that, but you are generally right.

When pograms are compiled, they can either be single threaded or multithreaded.  This is not something you can just turn on or off at compile time either: the programs do need to be written with the intent of being multi threaded to (a) get the best performance from it and (b) avoid nasty programmers problems like thread locking and starvation, which will cause a program to lag badly, or worse: crash.

Every program is broken down into processes: ie: the smaller individual parts or functions of the program that make up the greater package.  Any program you can think of is broken down like this (unless it is a single process program, of course).  Processes are then broken down further into threads (ie: the smaller routines within a process).

A few buzzwords exist to describe systems that can run more than one thread or process at once.  We have SMP (Symmetric multi processing).  This means two or more unique CPUs that can run two or more entirely separate processes (or threads) at the same time.  SMP has an advantage in that if you run an SMP aware OS (WinNT4, Win2K or WinXP Pro (home will not allow SMP for licensing reasons)) you can run two programs that are not multithreaded, and they will both run at full speed (assuming I/O needs are negligable).  SMP users often swear by their setups even if they don't run fully SMP software, as the OS has more CPU resources to share around when multi-tasking.

Next is SMT (Symmetric Multi Threading).  SMT can intelligently run two threads at the same time.  There are a few CPUs that can do this, the most famous being the Intel Pentium 4 with "HyperThreading".  On the CPU is a thing called a scheduler.  As the name suggests, it schedules the threads to run in a certain order.  It's job is to ensure things don't lock up, and that threads that need to run first to give information back to other threads do so.  SMT allows a single CPU to break processes down into threads, and process them at the same time.  These threads can be from two separate applications, or one application that is Multi Threaded.  Win2K, WinXP Home and WinXP Pro all understand SMT for P4 processors.  Remeber that the WinXP Home kernel is essentially the same as the XP Pro kernel, so the lack of SMP above is not a physical limitation, but a political one.  Just one of the few reasons folks like me dislike the big fat corporates. :)  But I'm digressing... moving on...

So in the case of MAME:

MAME is single threaded.  ie: it cannot be "broken up" to run on mutliple CPUs.  People ask why, considering that there are many games that use multiple CPUs that are being emulated.  Unfortunately on the real game hardware boards, timing between these CPUs was critical, and often clock-controlled to the Hz.  As such, mutli-threading of the software emulation would prove a massive overhead, as you would need very tight control to synchronise everything correctly.  The speedup benefits in most cases would be negligable anyway, mainly due to the fact that multi-CPU game boards would have one super fast processor (say, a 3D game graphics processor) and then a slow one too (sound processor, or similar).

AdvanceMAME for Linux is multi-threaded, but again only for "addon" stuff like graphics blitters (eg: high-res smoothing effects and whatnot).  So you won't see any games run faster, but what you would see is the game running full speed even if you ran one of the Scale2X or Scale4X effect filters:
http://scale2x.sourceforge.net/snapshot1.html

SMT or SMP systems running MAME would certainly benefit a user who is multitasking.  But I ask, who does that?  It's not like I can play MAME *AND* do some spreadsheet calculations.  Or play MAME *AND* browse the web, watch videos, whatever.  MAME pretty much takes up all of my time (as well as the CPUs) when I play it, and I most often play it fullscreen anyway.  And for most of us here, we play MAME in a cabinet, so background resources are negligable, as we either disable them, or don't use them.

Then consider the cost: SMP boards are expensive.  The last desktop-level chip that could be run in a dual-processor board was the PIII.  After that, Intel split the SMP and single processor line up into P4s and Xeons, and AMD had their AthlonXP and AthlonMP (although XP's could be modded, but you risk blowing things up).  After that was the Athlon64 and Opteron.

SMP boards cost a fortune.  I can buy an AthlonXP board (with good, fast AC'97 sound onboard) for AU$35 (US$27), and a Sempron 2200+ with heatsink for AU$82 (US$62) or if you wanted cheaper a Duron 1600 for AU$65 (US$49).  I'm actually now building cabinets for commercial sale, and we by default throw a Duron 1600 in.  Considering that every other cabinet builder is throwing in refurbished PII or PIII systems with 30-day warranties, we can put in brand new hardware that's 3 times faster with 12 month warranties for the same price!

And then you have to pay for SMP CPUs.  Old PIII SMP CPUs are usually sold in matched pairs (they don't have to be matched, but often you'll have less headaches if you do).  For this reason they seem to hold a bit more value than normal stuff.  Outside of that, pricing modern Xeon and Opteron gear quickly pushes system costs into the multiple thousands.

New, bottom-of-the-market hardware is the way to go for MAME.  It doesn't cost much, and will save you a bucket of stuffing around.