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Author Topic: Solder to what?  (Read 3412 times)

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cowpaste

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Solder to what?
« on: December 25, 2002, 09:49:52 am »
Ok, so I have this keyboard PCB. It's really small with no solder points that correspond to the little copper bands. So....what do I do? In all the examples I've looked at, they're keyboards aways have solder points. I just get the bands. Bah.

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2002, 02:36:04 pm »
The best thing to do:  drill a small hole at the end of each "band" where you want to solder, and scrape away any coating from the copper trace, so you just have about 1/4" of bare copper.  Put your wire thru the hole from underneath, and bend it over so you have 1/4" of wire overlapping the copper.  This should give you plenty of surface area for a good solder, and the hole will keep the wire from slipping off when you go to solder.

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2002, 02:42:41 pm »
hehe, or go the easy route, get an IPAC, no soldering skills needed.

Sorry, someone had to say it  :)

SNAAAKE

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2002, 04:35:50 pm »
yup..someone had to say it..trust us...keyboard hack suck..you gonna try to hack then after about an hour of work,wooop...cant play steet fighter :'(.

keyboard hack is cool  if you are gonna be using only like 3 buttons each side.playing street fighter wont happen.i tried and just lettting you know..its not funny at all(keyboard hack)

eightbit

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2002, 04:37:50 pm »
For the ease of installation, the incredible functionality and flexibility I would pay $100 for an IPAC. Luckily I can get 2 for that price. I may hack a joystick some day but I will never hack a keyboard. I really like the translucent Blue handle of that raider stick.
My statements are my own opinions. They have the value that the reader gives them. My opinion of my opinion varies between foolish and brilliant and these opinions often change with new information.

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2002, 04:40:10 pm »
I really like the translucent Blue handle of that raider stick.

WHAT ???
where exactly do you see a "TRANSLUENT BLUE HANDLE RAIDER STICK"   ???

sorry.little off topic :P

eightbit

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2002, 04:58:33 pm »
Snake I thought you read EVERY thread, check this one out- http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3947;start=0

I seen a completed panel recently with the blue raider stick in it with Glowire inside the stick and it looked killer sweet! I can't find that right off hand but I thought it was in another recent thread here somewhere.

And because I'm such a nice guy heres a pic on best buys website-

« Last Edit: December 25, 2002, 05:02:08 pm by eightbit »
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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2002, 05:14:10 pm »
oh..okay my desktop is too dark..i didnt notice that..anyhoos 8)

I dont have to read everything..just didnt notice.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2002, 05:16:33 pm by SNAAAKE »

cowpaste

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2002, 05:28:06 pm »
yup..someone had to say it..trust us...keyboard hack suck..you gonna try to hack then after about an hour of work,wooop...cant play steet fighter :'(.

keyboard hack is cool  if you are gonna be using only like 3 buttons each side.playing street fighter wont happen.i tried and just lettting you know..its not funny at all(keyboard hack)


I'm a absolute newbie when it comes to arcade control building, but I found keyboard hacking very doable. I already mapped the matrix of this PCB, and then I put the keyboard back together and was able to depress 12 keys simultaneously(with the help of some toes and tons of straining) on Ghostkey. I only need 12 because I'm doing a one player controller with a few menu buttons. Obviously if I connect all the keys to buttons, I'll be able to depress them all at once without worring about ghosting or masking. Therefore I would consider it extremely foolish of me to throw this all away for a $100 upgrade with better solder points.

cowpaste

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2002, 05:37:05 pm »
The best thing to do:  drill a small hole at the end of each "band" where you want to solder, and scrape away any coating from the copper trace, so you just have about 1/4" of bare copper.  Put your wire thru the hole from underneath, and bend it over so you have 1/4" of wire overlapping the copper.  This should give you plenty of surface area for a good solder, and the hole will keep the wire from slipping off when you go to solder.

!@#%^&% Drill small holes!?!?? The bands are so small already! How in the heck am I going to drill holes in this thing? Also, if I do manage to drill holes, I highly doubt I'll be able to solder things that close to each other and not have solder blops cover at least two bands. Is there any website I could go to that would show me this? I think I'll get a free web host just to host some images of my PCB so you guys can see what I'm talking about.

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2002, 07:15:54 pm »
!@#%^&% Drill small holes!?!?? The bands are so small already! How in the heck am I going to drill holes in this thing? Also, if I do manage to drill holes, I highly doubt I'll be able to solder things that close to each other and not have solder blops cover at least two bands. Is there any website I could go to that would show me this? I think I'll get a free web host just to host some images of my PCB so you guys can see what I'm talking about.

Sorry, that's the best way I know how.  I didn't have any way of seeing how tight the circuits are that you're messing with, but on your average PCB, this will work.  If you were hacking a gamepad, it would be much easier, but if your circuits are that small, you're probably out of luck.  Either that, or you're not soldering right!  Use a sharp-tipped soldering pencil, and heat the joint, not the solder.  ;)

BTW, the I-Pac is about the best way to go, and it's what most people are using.  It's only $39 (not $100) and requires no soldering.  Check it out: www.ultimarc.com

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2002, 07:36:28 pm »
Darn. That really stinks. I'll post an image up tonight of my soldering iron and my fingers next to the PCB so you can see how relatively small everything is. Here is an image of what it looks like alone. Sorry for the glare.



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eightbit

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2002, 09:50:04 pm »
Hey cow you might want to try another keyboard, maybe an older one. The newer keyboards keep getting smaller and smaller circuits.  Another viable alternative for one player controls is a joypad hack and those are far easier to solder.
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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2002, 10:29:44 pm »
Darn. That really stinks. I'll post an image up tonight of my soldering iron and my fingers next to the PCB so you can see how relatively small everything is. Here is an image of what it looks like alone. Sorry for the glare.

At the risk of sounding insensitive, if you can't solder to those copper fingers, you should probably try a different approach.  Those are pretty large targets compared to some of the stuff I have had to deal with.  I actually soldered mine directly to the pins of the cpu right on the upper corner where it leaves the plastic.  Not an option in your case, but much more difficult.

Now for suggestions.  The first is to just have at it.  Use a small gauge wire to make it easier (probably no larger than 24).  If you accidentally bridge a couple of them, use an xacto or other sharp instrument to scrape the solder from between them  (a dremel tool in the right hands, with the right bit is great for this as well).

The other is going to take a little more effort.  You might be able to measure the spacing of the fingers and find a "card edge connector" that this will fit.  It probably wont be easy, but if you can, you just solder the wires to the connector instead.

Good luck! :)

RandyT


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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2002, 03:24:02 am »
Hmm...  I've never busted a keyboard open enough to see what's in there, but could you not solder directly to the key switches?

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2002, 04:24:02 am »
huhahaha..so funny.. 8)

Dude,
most keyboards have a very small PCBs inside that are very hard to hack(its just not worth the hassle).there is no individual inputs switchs like gamepads. :P

where every switchs have a ground and regular connection.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2002, 11:01:29 am by SNAAAKE »

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2002, 05:07:07 am »
You don't sound insensitive at all RandyT. I have a few questions though. When dealing with things this small, what exactly is your soldering technique? I read over and over that I'm supposed to touch the iron to the joint, then apply solder on to the joint. The problem with that is everything is so small. Is it ever advisable to place solder directly onto the iron and then quickly dab the joint with the iron? I find it much easier to make small dots of solder this way. I'm highly inexperienced when it comes to soldering, so I bet there is something wrong with doing this.

Also, my soldering kit came with a bunch of small little tools. I don't know what some of them do. Could someone please explain?



One of them is a flat head screwdriver with a weird hole in the handle. What does that hole do?

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2002, 09:45:17 am »
Is it ever advisable to place solder directly onto the iron and then quickly dab the joint with the iron?
NEVER do this!  This will create what is known as a "cold" or "dry" joint.  Cold joints will have all kinds of intermittent problems and will eventually fail.

Instead, you heat the wires and the pads, and touch the solder to the wires and the pads, not to the iron.  The heat from the wire and pads will melt the solder and insure a good joint.  This should also allow you to use a minimal amount of solder, and if the nearby pads and wires are not hot, they should not attract any of the solder.

Here's what a bad joint will look like if you dab the solder on:



Here's what a good joint will look like:



For reference, see http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderpix.htm.

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2002, 09:57:32 am »
You don't sound insensitive at all RandyT. I have a few questions though. When dealing with things this small, what exactly is your soldering technique? I read over and over that I'm supposed to touch the iron to the joint, then apply solder on to the joint. The problem with that is everything is so small. Is it ever advisable to place solder directly onto the iron and then quickly dab the joint with the iron? I find it much easier to make small dots of solder this way. I'm highly inexperienced when it comes to soldering, so I bet there is something wrong with doing this.


Note:  When I say "fingers" in the following, I'm referring to the strips of copper on your circuit board, NOT THE ONES ON YOUR HAND! :o

Ok, the first thing I would recommend is that you make sure you have what is known as a "pencil tip" soldering iron. No soldering guns, blowtorches, whathaveyou....  ;D  The finer the tip, the better.  Also, make sure that you are using some GOOD rosin flux electronics solder.  The stuff at Radio Shack is mediocre at best.  Try a real electronics store/supply house.

You should also have a way to clean the tip of your iron.  A piece of damp cellulose sponge cleans a hot soldering iron tip pretty well.  Don't use anything other than cellulose!  Plastic or "foam" sponges will melt and make a bigger problem than what you are trying to fix!  After cleaning the tip, you should "tin" it with a little bit of solder.  When you are done cleaning the tip, it should be clean and shiny.  Do this as required.

Now, place the tip of the hot iron onto one of the"fingers" of your circuit board and leave it there for a few seconds.  The heat energy from the iron will conduct to the finger and heat it.  Don't leave it there too long!

Then take your solder and touch it to the "finger" you just heated, while your iron is still on it.  If all goes well, the solder should melt and flow to the finger.  Use the iron to spread an even layer across the surface and try to avoid the adjacent fingers while doing this.  You should have a nice, shiny "tinned finger" to make your connection to.

Next, do the same to your wire.  Again, The radio shack stuff is not the best for some reason.  Use a solid strand of 24 gauge wire.  The multi stranded wire will make this whole process a lot more difficult.  Strip back 1/8" to 1/4" of insulation and "tin" the exposed wire.  A pair of solderer's helpers (alligator clips on a stand) will help here, but failing that, tape the wire to the edge of a table with  the lead hanging off where you can access it.  A SMALL gob of solder at the end of the wire will be good, but a big one will cause problems.

With me so far?  Good.  Now take the wire you just tinned, place it on the finger you tinned previously and place the tip of your iron on the wire end.  The solder you placed on the tip of the wire should start to flow, and then heat the solder on the finger.  When everything looks hot and flowing, remove the tip of the iron and hold the wire in place for a few seconds.  The solder should cool, and give you a good, clean connection.

Just do the same thing to each of the fingers you want to connect a wire to, one at a time, being careful not to heat up the adjacent connections.

When you are all done, take a magnifying glass and make sure there are no small blobs connecting the fingers together.  If there are, use a razor blade or x-acto knife to carefully scrape away anything in-between. If you have a major problem, clean your tip and drag it between the bridged fingers.  You might have to do this a couple times and you will probably have to redo the connections, but it won't be the end of the world.  Some solder braid will help here as well.

As with anything, instructions can't make up for experience and a solid skill set, but practice makes perfect.  

RandyT

« Last Edit: December 27, 2002, 05:35:00 pm by RandyT »

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2002, 10:56:50 am »
also,after you are done.you can use some hot glue to secure the connection.

$2 hot glue gun and $0.97 would REALLY secure the connnection. :)

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2002, 11:42:59 am »
also,after you are done.you can use some hot glue to secure the connection.

$2 hot glue gun and $0.97 would REALLY secure the connnection. :)

If you are SURE that everything is solidly connected, that's ok.  Good solder joints don't need glue. :)

The problem with doing this is that if a wire ever comes loose, that hot glue will likely make it impossible to fix.

RandyT

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2002, 03:33:38 pm »
If you are SURE that everything is solidly connected, that's ok.  Good solder joints don't need glue. :)

The problem with doing this is that if a wire ever comes loose, that hot glue will likely make it impossible to fix.

RandyT

I second that.  I used to be a big fan of using hot glue to secure wires, until the first time I wanted to go back and fix something.  Get a soldering iron too close to hot glue, and you'll end up with glue flowing everywhere.  Not fun to have glue suddenly searing your flesh while you're paying attention to soldering!  Remember, solder is basically an adhesive made specifically for joining metal.  Why would you need 2 kinds of "glue" to hold your circuit together?

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2002, 11:58:43 am »
If you are SURE that everything is solidly connected, that's ok.  Good solder joints don't need glue. :)

The problem with doing this is that if a wire ever comes loose, that hot glue will likely make it impossible to fix.

RandyT

I second that.  I used to be a big fan of using hot glue to secure wires, until the first time I wanted to go back and fix something.  Get a soldering iron too close to hot glue, and you'll end up with glue flowing everywhere.  Not fun to have glue suddenly searing your flesh while you're paying attention to soldering!  Remember, solder is basically an adhesive made specifically for joining metal.  Why would you need 2 kinds of "glue" to hold your circuit together?

The draw backs for using hot glue has been duely (?) noted...

but I think why most people do the hot glue on top of the solder  is for strain relief on the wires (at least that's why I did it on one particular hack)... Of course there are better smarter ways to do this (strain relief), but it isn't necessarily to "glue" it twice...  just a small nitpick  clarification...

if you solder properly, and do smart/good tiebacks it wouldn't be necessary... but if you had some trouble doing a hack, and didn't want the slightest jostle/reposition to metal fatigue snap your wires, I can see some strategic hot glue gun action with the reservation that it'll be  a ---smurfette--- if you need to get back at it...

"solder once, measure twice... er..."

rampy

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2002, 12:51:10 pm »
yeah.... I agree to rampy....

when I hack my sidewinder... I don't need to double glue it...

but when I hack the psx pads, since the copper place is quite small... although it does have a good solder, it still won't be able to handle much force.... (you never know... when you are wiring stuffs... you give it a little yank slightly and then that wire is loose... and you're half way done... re-soldering then will be harder with a lot of things attached...)

that's why I double glued the psc hack....

but before pouring glue on... make sure you double check your solders.... and once you pour glue on, do NOT connect the hacked circuit UNTIL you're SURE the glue is DRY and will not conduct electicity....

but 1up is right... after you glue... if you somehow manage to mess the solder points, that pad is pretty much done... (will be very hard to fix....)

good luck...
Another Brilliant mind ruined by education....  :p

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2002, 03:48:14 pm »

Ok, I'll add one more thing on this topic :)

If you absolutley MUST use hot glue for strain relief, do it someplace other than on the connections.  If the board is large enough, throw a gob onto the wires and stick them somplace else.  This will have the same net effect, but will keep your solder points accessible.

RandyT

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Re:Solder to what?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2002, 05:13:33 pm »
okay this is getting kinda annoying.What I meant was that use hot glue only when you are 100% sure the connection is good.Like when you see a very shiny solder joint.really dont need to use hot glue but it helps :).