dual wico control panel question

[IreM72]

I've got one wico 8 way leaf stick and one wico 8 way microswitch
one (with rubber grommet and square actuator) and I'm considering

[Xiaou2]

 Well, while they are simular in construction... they are still very diferent.

 In Robotron, you usually are always moving.  You usually roll the stick arround the far edge of travel in a circular snake-like  motion.  Its smooth, effortless, easy to change directions very quickly.

 But the Micros 'square' actuator will hamper the ease of motion as you not only have to move it further into a corner.. but you will sorta get stuck in the corners.
The boxy restriction causes a really odd feel and actually, you will eat the stick up
doing continious outter edge rolling. (spacer will grind to bits) .   

 Micros are better for fighters because in a fighter, you want to be very careful not to press a diagnal on accident.   With micros square actuators, its a bit longer throw to hit them.  Also, the micros themselves have a longer throw and activation distance.   Where as Leafs only have a sliver of distance before they are activated.   Micros also have a pop-spring inside, and thus have resistence to make them activate.. which again causes a slightly slower action.. yet is more accurate to make sure you were wanting to press the button.

 Leaf buttons for example, can be fired more rapidly (just do not press the full travel of the button, as you do not need to.  The travel of the leaf button is greater than the actual contact distance - probably because the leafs can bend outwards over time... thus youd need to have more distance to reach them ((if you were an aracde op and didnt have tiime to bend the leafs back)))  But since they are so sensative, that again makes them able to click on accident at times.  (if the player was only slightly pressing down and bounced the button up/down a hair - like a double tap). 

 
 There is an idea I had once for a control panel that you may wish to try.   Many people make the huge panels with many controls on them - but they have to reach far for the rear controls... which can be uncomfortable.     To solve this, you can mount the top controls upside down... and then when needing to play with them, just lift the panel up, and rotate the panel to its other side.

 That would allow you to have dual 8way micros, and 8way leafs on one panel that wasnt too big, yet also very comfortable to use.


   




Games like Time Pilot and gyrus also feel and control much better with round restriction. 

[IreM72]

Thank you Xiaou2 for the in depth response, it's been very helpful

How would a happs P360 play with a wico 8-way for Robotron, Smash TV, Total carnage etc.?

[Xiaou2]

How would a happs P360 play with a wico 8-way for Robotron, Smash TV, Total carnage etc.?  I believe you can do perfect circular motions with it.


 I do not have a 360.  However,  I can see from thier construction that they are simular in ways.  Unfortunately, they do not have an exploded view - so i can not tell if it uses springs or a rubber gromet.  But according to retroblast, it uses a spring.

 The main differences in play may be the throw distances.  A wico leaf will hit a switch open with only a tiny degree of movment.  Since the switches are so close to the actuator, and they only require 1 mm to activate, they are lightning fast to change directions.

 I can not tell by the picture how much you have to move the 360 to get a movment response.  Im guessing that it is simularly set up to the throw of a super.  Else it would make presice diagnols harder to hit with fighting games.

 This is the differnce between a wico leaf and a typical standard joy.   The
diagnols are harder to hit accurately in a leaf - but, they are faster and easier when you are playing a game where you roll the stick arround - like robotron.   

 For a figher, you need the extra dead space (activation distances) to keep you from accidentally hitting a direction.  This space slows your reaction time down a bit... but gives you more control.  However,  for games that require split second reactions, you are going to die a lot faster with these.  Robotron is the greatest example of a game with split second timing.. because its intensity level at every second of play, and its super fast moving projectiles that need dodging or shooting down. 

 There is also the fact that the super type bat handle is a bit clumbsy for this game.  The balltop feels so much better, and you have a very firm grip on it at all
times for all directions.   Being that its not a 'stop and go'  game like a fighter... that is important.   The bats are good for stop and gos because you may want to let the stick feel a bit loose at times when you are in between movments.  It also matches many heights of hands, and, the angle of grip does give you a more controlled feeling - like using a pencil.   Again, different games, different type of feel and responce needed.   Using a bat grip on robotron is like trying to draw with a thick pencil durring an earthquake.  Its awkward, uncomfortable,  and feels like the pencil will fly out from your hands.   Your hands slides along the control panel too much, where as a balltop, your hand never touches the panel (no friction) and with a centered grip - you have equal distance travel in all directions.
(not to mention better leverages)

 The shorter shaft of the wico also means quicker responce.  Less distance to  have  to  move the shaft.   Longer shafts give more control, but less reaction times.   Of course, the bigger factor already discussed is the underside distances to activation.

 There are also slight differences in springs -vs- rubber gromets.

 A gromet dosnt create too much resistence like a spring will.   Less resistance = less force required (less fatigure), and quicker responces.   Also the gromet seems to do a better job to keep the pivot point of the joy centered I think... which means the leverage will be slightly better.   

  Springs have an initial pressure barrier you have to overcome to move the shaft... its not a lot, but its there.  It somewhat hampers smooth movment.
You can see it more clearly in analog joysticks.    You do not feel such a thing with a wico leaf joys rubber gromet.

 The 360s have advantages over Supers.. because there is no mechanical switches to have to push.  No additional microswitch spring resistance, no addiational microswitch travel distance to activation.   No micro-leafs to bend out of shape.    Smooth rolling - because nothing to interfere with joypath.

 The supers are a bit stiff.  They are slow and kludgy.  They have micro-leaf type micros that use flimbsy thin metal leafs - that bend out of shape too easily.  If you bend them too far, they are ruined and will never work right again.   And to me, I had troubles with diagnols on supers - as Id hit them (or miss them) on accident with that stick (unlike the comps).

 I have a super that I got for free.  Tho I never will use it  lol.   I have used them  though.   And more recently, played robotron on a friends cab that had dual supers.   Unlike the more wretched experience of dual comps.. where I only played one level and gave up cause it was so horrible... The supers were somewhat better.  I got no higher than level 8 I think.  And that is pretty low.  I  got fusterated after 3 games... and gave up.  They are too slow, clumbsy and awkward for that game.   

 On a friends real machine, with dual wico leafs, Ive got to level 30.   Even my worst games I can reach at least level 15.   This was on an easy setting, but still, its one heck of a feat even on easy level... at least for me it was : ) 

  If you arnt a fanatic about perfect control.. then the 360 may be ok for you.  Or, a 49way with the new encoder that randy sells.   

 However,  nothing will ever fully perform quite are good as a real wico leaf for classic games such as robotron - IN MY OPINION.  (i have to stress that here - but Im sure Ill still get an argument for it )     What seems so simple, is actually very  complex as there are a lot of mechanics to consider.

 If you try to play with 2 totally different sticks at the same time, you will have a lag with one, and, you will feel the difference like night and day.  I think it will be awkward enough to make you not want to play the dual games.

 I say, grab another leaf : )   The more controls the better IMOP.   

Or if you decide against that.. then grab 2 of either the 360's  or two of the 49ways + encoders.   You will really want 2 of the same sticks for dual games no matter what.

 

[babydickonboard]

that was quite a break down of microswitch vs. leaf...very informative