MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[Chris]

2nd, EBay IS A AUCTION HOUSE.

[ChadTower]

The fact is that those suckers STILL can't make money on location, neither can Ultracades or Reunion Machines or 39 in 1s. There just isn't any interest anymore.

I've seen some local Reunion cabs that charge .50 and have 10 minute wait periods at night.  They do bring in money, but probably not enough to justify paying four grand for $400 in material.

[KenToad]

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

Actually, Tengen got in trouble because they DIDN'T reverse engineer the lockout chip.

They illegally obtained a copy of the patent by claiming they needed it for a lawsuit against Nintendo, then used the patent information to make their own version of the lockout chip.

So Nintendo sued them and won.


Reverse-engineering is legal, provided it's done properly.

Note, for example, the oft-cited Bleem! legality.
One of Sony's first lawsuits was in regards to the PS1 BIOS. Bleem! pointed out that their emulated BIOS was reverse-engineered, with no original Sony code in it. They won, as they would win all the cases filed against them until they went bankrupt.

You're right, JB.  I knew I was getting something confused, but couldn't quite figure out what.  Thanks for the clarification.

So, I wonder if anyone could tell me what might happen today in a reverse engineering suit regarding the DMCA?  Patentdoc?

If people weren't at risk of losing their eBay accounts and reputations over what Aaron is doing, this would be a simple academic discussion.  But the MAMEDevs are mere mortals, just like us, and questioning the "shoot first and ask questions later" attitude isn't disrespect.  I don't buy into the "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality.

--Chris

Agreed.  I think you can disagree with the Mamedev's current decision to beat DF/Ultracade at his own game and still support the Mame project. 

As a side note, I wonder if anyone has ever seriously challenged ebay's right to both act like a shopping mall with vacant storefronts for vendors to occupy and sell things repeatedly and at the same time like the neighborhood garage sale with a few things getting sold by individuals at little to no profit as under the table income.  Maybe both Ebay and the Mamedevs have these strict policies because they both know that they're a hair's width from getting shut down. 

Anyway, that was just something I thought about during this argument/debate.  I wouldn't be surprised if someone takes it personally, but I really hope not.  That said, I believe that there are several different arguments occurring at once in this thread.  Personally, my argument is like the teacher's, since I'm a substitute teacher as well as a journalist in my daily life.  As a teacher, you can't set stricter rules for the bad kids than you can for the good kids.  Many times, I come into a class and I have to crack down on everyone, although I would love to just get the good kids and let them go buzzing down the road of education.  The best example of this is the fighting rule.  I sometimes will stop some elementary school kids from wrestling on the playground.  They say "We're friends."  I'm sure I could let them go at it all day, no problem, but, since there are other kids around who would definitely get hurt or misinterpret the rules, I have to stop it all.  Also, I have to set a good example and follow my own rules.  Otherwise, I would get emulated.     So I think this applies to the Mamedevs in the sense that they must address the legalities in their own project before they call the teacher to tell on the other kids on the playground.  I think it can be gathered from this thread that the Mamedev's have not earned the right to become the keepers of posterity by enabling software to imitate proprietary hardware they do not own.  Similarly, once they figure out the legality, they must follow their own rules if they wish to be respected.  Until those conditions are met, I support the Mamedevs for doing what they do best, not for being the bulldogs of Ebay, although that doesn't affect me in the least.

Again, if you think my reasoning is invalid, shoot it down with a reason.  As always, I don't intend to infuriate anyone.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

What I think may be getting missed is the MAMEdev's are just programmers working on a project for free in their spare time.

If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.

Pulling E-bay ads is a way to keep MAME from appearing commercialized, but someone (whether they can win it or not) is likely to generate a lawsuit, most likely under unfair trade restriction, in this case.

The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do.  What would you do in their place?

[Chris]

If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.

I agree.  But I don'r believe selling spare buttons or keyboard encoders are over-commercializing.  Are you saying you think OSCAR, Ultimrc, and GroovyGameGear should shut down to avoid harming the MAME project?  What about Shawnzilla's coming translucent buttons?  Sure, they could be used on any machine, but they're being made for us...

The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do.

[KenToad]

What I think may be getting missed is the MAMEdev's are just programmers working on a project for free in their spare time.

If the project starts becoming commercialized (someone) may generate a lawsuit (whether they can win it or not) to shut the project down, most likely over copyright violation.

Pulling E-bay ads is a way to keep MAME from appearing commercialized, but someone (whether they can win it or not) is likely to generate a lawsuit, most likely under unfair trade restriction, in this case.

The question is, when MAMEdev's legal department says "We feel we can prevail in either of these lawsuits, but it may cost us $250,000 to fight it out in court, or we can cease and desist and take our ball and go home", what will the dev's do.  What would you do in their place?

Generally, I agree with you, Tiger-Heli, but I think that the more active role the Mamedevs are playing now will land them in hot water quicker than if they just let the thing go as it always has.  Just have a look at the DF/Ultracade incident.  Nobody cared about him until he tried to be the bulldog.  Of course, I may be mistaken.  It may be his actions that caused Aaron Giles to become the enforcer in the first place.  I hope not, although we obviously don't know what transacted between those players during that hullaballoo.  Maybe the Game companies are actually requesting that the Mamedevs act this way?  I guess we'll just have to speculate until the truth is revealed.

Cheers,
KenToad

*Edit* Agreed, Chris, you posted as I typed.

[Tiger-Heli]

As I remember things (and there may well be a lot of Behind-the-scenes stuff I'm missing).

DF/Ultracade tried to shut everyone else down, by applying for a trademark on MAME and claiming trademark violations.

Nicola applied for a MAME trademark, basically to keep DF from being granted it and possibly forcing the project to be shut down and/or re-named.

MAMEdev is going after E-bay auctions, in part, because if a trademark holder does not enforce their rights to a trademark, the trademark is considered to fall into public domain and their rights evaporate.

And most likely, they are overstepping their bounds and yes, there may be more legal repercussions from their actions than if they had ignored the situation, hard to say.

IANAL, though, and even if I was, it's hard to predict what will happen.  You can see this just from the past 10 replies in this thread with different individuals saying the DMCA either protects or prevents what MAMEdev are working on.

[Lilwolf]

LOL! 

4th.. Why in the heck do you think you should be able to make money off of MAME?

[KenToad]

Yup, Tiger-Heli, I think we're in agreement.  I also thought it was DF that had withdrawn his application for the TM.  What I and what I think we all might be wondering is: Why did he withdraw his application instead of just playing it out?  It couldn't have been the flaming he was getting on his own forum from BYOAC members. 

[KenToad]

MAMEdev is going after E-bay auctions, in part, because if a trademark holder does not enforce their rights to a trademark, the trademark is considered to fall into public domain and their rights evaporate.

I also think there is a difference between what they are currently doing and enforcing their rights to a trademark.

Cheers,
KenToad

[RayB]

*sigh* ...

Here are some bottom lines, relating to a number of arguments in this thread.

1. Stop citing Bleem as a precedent. Bleem existing before the DMCA was enacted. The DMCA has changed the playing field.

2. The argument that MAMEdev's "shotgun" approach to auctions is acceptable because they don't have time to go through all auctions is nonsense. Think of the amount of time and extra crap they are now going through to sort out the LEGITIMATE people who got "busted"? Let's face it, they took a lazy approach and now have to waste more time than they otherwise would have.

2B. The ONLY auctions that should be pulled are all-in-1 cabs that violate the use of their software, ROM sales, etc. Screw TM arguments. TM arguments are strictly a result of FOLEY pulling the puppet strings. I have NO doubt here about this. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the MAMEdevs made their agreement with Foley without even consulting a lawyer. They are probably following some ridiculous agreement with Foley (rather than having fought it), and now look at the mess...

3. Comparisons to Ford, are to a degree accurate. Do you all not think that auto companies at some point in time didn't want everyone to only buy their car parts? Of course. But most of us weren't even born yet when those battles too place, so we don't remember such a time. I'd have to look up some supporting facts here, but I'm pretty sure i remember reading that car manufactures at one time wanted to control parts sales so only their parts were "legal". That of course didn't pan out, and now we have the right to after-market parts.

Same thing here to a degree. If someone wants to sell parts that work with MAME, that is their right.

[Chris]

2B. The ONLY auctions that should be pulled are all-in-1 cabs that violate the use of their software.

And MAME DVD auctions.  Definately those.

[Tiger-Heli]

Yup, Tiger-Heli, I think we're in agreement.  I also thought it was DF that had withdrawn his application for the TM.  What I and what I think we all might be wondering is: Why did he withdraw his application instead of just playing it out?  It couldn't have been the flaming he was getting on his own forum from BYOAC members. 

Foley may be sharper than we give him credit for, or he may have gotten lucky.  And there may or may not have been some "back-room deals"

As I was hinting earlier.  DF probably didn't think he could actually trademark MAME, it was probably a bluff - But if he says he is applying to trademark it and that such and such sale is in violation of the trademark and his attorney will be contacting the seller, some sellers are just going to cave and take his word for it.

And if MAME trademarks it and starts trying to restrict auctions, that works in his favor also, although he may or may not have foreseen this.

[Crazy Cooter]

Foley had to back out of the TM thing.  He knowingly filed a false claim (a criminal offense).

I posted in the other thread too but I was wondering:
How does it work with ebay as far as pulling auctions automagically?  The Mamedevs aren't looking at them, I doubt ebay is looking at them, so it must be automated.  That's probably why the Mamedevs said to put "X" in your auctions.  Nothing more, nothing less.  That way it would pass the filter.  If you want to put more, ask.

Consider two examples on ebay:
1- A cabinet kit that can run MAME.
2- A cabinet running MAME.

The kit says "compatible with MAME".  If they want to say more, they can ask and possibly receive "permission" to do so (most likely putting their ebay account past the filter).

The MAME cabinet can't accurately describe what it is without hitting the filter.  They wouldn't get permission either (obviously).

So far it looks like they have been working with those that have had auctions pulled that shouldn't have.  They really only had two options:
a) Automate it.
b) Police it each and everyday... by hand... nonstop.
"a" is waaaaay less time intensive and gets them back to what they want to do.

RayB... it's ebay, a private auction site.  They can remove auctions as easily and with every right that Saint can ban a user here.  They can and often do supercede basic laws and freedom of speech and often don't make sense.   That's ebay.  If it were a regular store, they would have never lasted a month with the policies they have.

BLEEM! is still a precedent.  What will happen when (not if) it gets revisited is beyond me.  But for now it still stands even with the DMCA.  Where they clash is the realm of expensive lawyers.  Personally, I don't want to see it all go back into the courts.  I'd give emulators (as a whole) about a 50/50 chance.

[monkeybomb]

Foley had to back out of the TM thing.  He knowingly filed a false claim (a criminal offense).

Didn't he also falsely claim to be the owner and send cease and desist letters.  I think he even tried to get money from one of the marquee printers, as the holder of the trademark.

[Crazy Cooter]

Yeah he did, that's why I was encouraging other to pursue the matter against him.  He didn't have a leg to stand on.

Has anyone found anything on ebay about automated "policing"?  I can't find squat other than if you hand picked each one...

[quarterback]

Has anyone found anything on ebay about automated "policing"?

[pcb]

2B. The ONLY auctions that should be pulled are all-in-1 cabs that violate the use of their software.

And MAME DVD auctions.

[Avery]

My favorite dumb e-bay aution to date - barrel locks, like you'd use for a coin door,  dutifully labeled as compatable with mame (tm). 

Based on that logic my desk is compatable with mame.  I'm starting to understand where the mamedevs are comming from.

[Tiger-Heli]

My favorite dumb e-bay aution to date - barrel locks, like you'd use for a coin door,  dutifully labeled as compatable with mame (tm). 

Based on that logic my desk is compatable with mame.  I'm starting to understand where the mamedevs are comming from.

LOL, or your Pentium 200 (that one might even be legit), or the monitor, or the house you put the cab in . . .

[Tiger-Heli]

Here's a fairly good or bad summary of how we got to this point: http://retroblast.com/articles/TSR_editorial.html

Thanks KevSteele for hosting this.

<edit> added the red text.

[kahlid74]

BLEEM! is still a precedent.

[NiN^_^NiN]

my hands weren't compatiable with mame joystick on a mame cab so i had to buy some new hands off ebay so i had mame compatiable hands 

[KevSteele]

One bright spot in the ongoing 'copyright wars' is the fact that the "broadcast flag" proposal for digital TV was thrown out. With the flag, broadcasters could have specified what can and cannot be recorded.

One thing that I hope the RIAA mess has shown is that it is pointless to crack down on infringement until a legal alternative is available. Don't just tell people not to do something: give them a legal way. Cracking down on illegal music, ROMs, or whatever when there is no legal way to download content is only going to force people to consider themselves "outlaws" and continue doing what they were doing.

I just saw a report this morning that iTunes now has more traffic than P2P sites (how they measured this I don't know), but it brings home a point: people generally want to do the right thing, but when a legal route is not available, they will wander the trail less traveled.

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I'm trying to write an article about this situation, and I've actually been in contact with David Foley via email. I got some surprising answers to my questions, and I'm now going to be interviewing Aaron Giles, as I really want to try and present a balanced view of why this happened and what's next for the MAME community.

Kevin

[Chris]

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I disagree.  The defenders of the MAMEDevs' actions keep saying this is about legal protection, but the MAMEDevs themselves say this is about keeping people from making any money off their name.  In that respect, having legally-available ROMs will make the trademark situation worse, not better.

[KevSteele]

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I disagree.

[Tiger-Heli]

It pains me to say this, but I really hope that Foley's "i-ROMs" service is a success. If we can get reasonably priced legal ROMs, MAME can step out of the shadows and all of this trademark nonsense will be pointless. None of this would be happening if legal ROMs were available.

I disagree.  The defenders of the MAMEDevs' actions keep saying this is about legal protection, but the MAMEDevs themselves say this is about keeping people from making any money off their name.  In that respect, having legally-available ROMs will make the trademark situation worse, not better.

I can't say how it will all shake out, but I think what MAMEdev is really trying to do is keep the project from being shut down if some anti-piracy coalition gets involved.

If Roms are legalized (i-ROMS), MAME gains legitimacy, and I don't think the dev's will care as much about enforcing the trademark.

Of course, that also means you may no longer be able to download MAME and may see MAME in a box at Best Buy (remember what ended up happening with BLEEM).

Another issue to be resolved is ROMS for Bootleg games that are in copyright violation in their own right.  Can these be sold through i-ROMS?  Will they be removed from MAME?  What about ROMS that the original copyright owner is out of business and their successor is in dispute?  What about say NAMCO that may have rights to the ROMS currently in MAME and no interest in making them available at any price?

[Tiger-Heli]

Well, bottom line is this: on eBay, MAMEdev's wishes rule unquestioned. In the "real world," who knows? I'm curious about what's going to happen if a company like MAMEroom decides to fight rather than change names. Will MAMEdev decide it's worth the trouble and expense of taking them to court?

CyberPunk (MAMEroom) has already said in this thread,  that he contends his company was named irrespective of MAME the emulator and prior to it's existence, and he will not change it without a court battle.  He also (probably accurately) claims that he was USING the name in commerce prior the MAMEdev's trademark application, so if MAMEdev takes him to court, he will likely countersue that MAME is a derivative of his company name and they must cease operations under that name as trademark infringement on MAMEroom.

Yes, indeed, outside of E-bay, and with lawyers involved, things get sticky real fast!

[HoopstarsGarage]

My 2 cents worth..

MAME was from the start about the enthusiast keeping the old stuff alive - MAME was exactly what this very site is about - Build Your Own...!!  It IS free.  ROM burners essentially do it for free.  People on this very website offer so much for free - and why?
Because they are passionate about keeping the dream alive..

I do not support those selling "complete solutions" on EBay because I think they threaten the very nature of why the companies that OWN these ROMs have left us and the MAMEdev's alone - because it is a non-profit thing.

These people selling their wares on Ebay are almost rubbing it in the noses of the proprietary owners of these ROMs and threaten everything that this site and our community is about.

[RayB]

Using MAME as a keyword to sell barrel locks is stupid, but the MAMEdevs are not "the stupid police".

VERO notices say that "under penalty of perjury" (or something to that effect) the complainant claims there's an infringement...

The MAMEdevs had better be careful with their "shotgun" approach, as they will be guilty of perjury making certain claims that turn out false.

[ChadTower]

How many people have thought so far as to consider that while this is primarily about profiting from mame illegally, it may also be about illegal roms and the original spirit of MAME?  Maybe they just don't want people making MAME cabs anymore since 99% of them are not based on legally licensed games.

[kahlid74]

How many people have thought so far as to consider that while this is primarily about profiting from mame illegally, it may also be about illegal roms and the original spirit of MAME?

[ChadTower]

If you take what you said into consideration then the whole project from the start was based on testing against illegal roms.

[Tiger-Heli]

If making it harder to build MAME cabs is one of the byproducts of the effort against MAME based commerce, so much the better for them.

And as Haze has stated, if everyone gets PO'd at the MAME team not supporting their requests and hassling E-bay sellers and decides they'd rather use Raine, that will be fine with them as well!

[RayB]

So I was working on my Vantage cab last night...
 

[ChadTower]

And as Haze has stated, if everyone gets PO'd at the MAME team not supporting their requests and hassling E-bay sellers and decides they'd rather use Raine, that will be fine with them as well!

Exactly.  The hand that has been feeding these idiots has finally been bitten too many times.  I'm surprised it took this long.

[kahlid74]

There is a difference between reverse engineering a couple of boards to preserve them, and building a MAME cab with 7000 games on it, having contributed nothing to MAME or preservation.

I agree, I was just being devils advocate in making sure you realize that while there is a difference, it's all still considered illegal.

I also agree they are tired, and also that possibly after avoiding/not thinking about legal implications something happened that made them have to proactively govern something they built out of passion for creativity and ideas.

[Crazy Cooter]

Here's a fairly good summary of how we got to this point: http://retroblast.com/articles/TSR_editorial.html

Thanks KevSteele for hosting this.

That's one of the most biased articles I've ever read (no offense Kevin).  It sounds like a commercial for Ultracrap.  ROM's are not mp3's.  Show me where the back of a Centipede game has the same legal verbage as a cd does.  It isn't there.  Apples to Oranges.

"In a contentious move the company exploited the neglect of the MAME team copyright or licenses their name and logo, attempted to acquire the rights for themselves - hoping from this position of power to directly attack those illegal users, or just shake up MAME."
Foley commited a CRIME doing this.  How in the world is that a "contentious move"?  It's a crime.  A bully tactic.  Yet Foley is painted as some savior?  That's sad.

I don't see how calling the MAMEdevs neglectful and not grown up, the MAME fan-base immature all while painting Foley in a white suit is even close to a balanced article.

"As defensive as when the music industry attempted to close down NAPSTER, accusations against UltraCade were thrown freely. Stung into action the MAME developers bit the bullet and took hold of their responsibility, and through last-minute negotiations with UltraCade took over the control of the MAME trademark, "

Accusations of willfully filing an illegal trademark application?  Look on the USPTO site, It's a crime.  Read under "

[ChadTower]

[Crazy Cooter]

There's no way I could make a face like that without crapping my drawers.

Let the photochopping begin...