MAMEdev is Pulling Auctions!

[Chris]

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.

[Tiger-Heli]

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.  Until it is "disproved" by the USPTO, that person has every right to enforce their claim to it's use.  It doesn't have to be a "registered" trademark.

"Any time you claim rights in a mark, you may use the "TM" (trademark) or "SM" (service mark) designation to alert the public to your claim, regardless of whether you have filed an application with the USPTO. However, you may use the federal registration symbol "

[Chris]

That says they can use the trademark, which means they can enforce the trademark.

It wouldn't do Ford (TM?) much good to Trademark the Blue oval and silver script if I could just put a blue oval and silver Ford script on my product with a TM after it and sell it.

The word Ford appears in over 4000 categories on eBay.

[Tiger-Heli]

That says they can use the trademark, which means they can enforce the trademark.

It wouldn't do Ford (TM?) much good to Trademark the Blue oval and silver script if I could just put a blue oval and silver Ford script on my product with a TM after it and sell it.

The word Ford appears in over 4000 categories on eBay.  There are too many results for it to actually return the number of auctions that use Ford as a keyword.  None of the auction titles use a oval logo on them.

And I believe that if Ford so chose (and thought it was profitable for them to), they could go after any and all of them for trademark violation, especially if they had from the iniitiation of the trademark taken litigation to prevent it's usage in the title of E-bay auctions (which they obviously haven't, but MAME has).

IMNAL, though.

[Chris]

And I believe that if Ford so chose (and thought it was profitable for them to), they could go after any and all of them for trademark violation, especially if they had from the iniitiation of the trademark taken litigation to prevent it's usage in the title of E-bay auctions (which they obviously haven't, but MAME has).

IMNAL, though.

Having a trademark doesn't give you the absolute right to control every form in which a word appears.

Specifically:

- The MAME trademark is limited to software, according to the category Nicola filed in.  Aaron can't do a DAMN THING about a hardware only auction, like a button or a joystick. He is only succeeding because eBay will err on the side of caution and approve almost any VeRO complaint.

- Trademarks have to be used in commerce.  MAME is free.  When the mark is published for opposition, any of the numerous people he's pissed off can probably kill the application.  He could probably get it approved as a service mark instead of a trademark, but he'll probably have to start over again.

- There are fair-use allowances for using a trademark even against that entity's wishes.    It's what keeps Microsoft from being able to have a bad review of Windows from being yanked from a Linux magazine, and what keeps Coke from preventing the use of their logo in a Pepsi commercial.

--Chris

[Chris]

More on fair use:

1. Trademark Fair Use

While a trademark will protect a word which is used by a manufacturer or merchant to identify goods and distinguish them from others, trademark law will not prevent the use of such a word in good faith with a primary purpose of describing a product or service, and not to infringe the trademark resembled by it. Several different factors are considered in determining whether a court will determine that a use is an infringing use or a fair use.

(emphasis added)

Thus, "Floormats for Ford Taurus" and "Keyboard Encoder for MAME" are allowed, and "Ford Taurus Floormats" and "MAME Keyboard Encoder" could be pulled.

From doing some reading, it seems like the rule of thumb is that if the trademark is used as an adjective, it's probably infringing, and  if it's used as a noun it's probably not.

[patrickl]

Chris,

I agree with you, but wouldn't you rather have the mamedevs spending their time on refining MAME than on going through adds seeing if they are "fair" or not?

I mean, the mamedevs probably don't really have the right to enforce the TM as agressively they do now, but the alternative is for them to actually read and judge all the ads. Let alone the endles (time wasting) debates you get on why such and such auction is allowed and another is not.

[MonitorGuru]

Okay, I fully support MameDev's efforts (as noted by my previous posts). Listing things with MAME in the name clearly will only lead to the destruction of Mame as a project once Atari, Nintendo, Sammy, etc... start-a-suing.

[Chris]

PS: I also believe multiple snapshots from emultated games included on their WIP pages probably violate "fair use" rights from these manufacturers as well.

So, if you are going to go after others (which I do support), you d*mn well better get your own house clean before doing so, or you will look the fool, much like Foley with his illegal play that started all of this.

Yes, we and the MAMEDevs should be very thankful that the multitudes of game manufacturers don't treat us the way the MAMEDevs treat people regarding trademarks.  This whole scene would be over in a heartbeat.

[Haze]

But I HAVE A (non-rehtorical) QUESTION FOR HAZE (or other MameDev's):

If you are sending out terms that state you cannot mention/include Artwork, etc..  then why the H*11 does Mame.Net offer downloads of ARTWORK and SOUND SAMPLES.... *CLEARLY* copyrighted material NOT OWNED BY THE AUTHORS OF MAME, on a site that HAS been directly controlled by MameDev???

PS: I also believe multiple snapshots from emultated games included on their WIP pages probably violate "fair use" rights from these manufacturers as well.

I've said several times I don't think mame.net should be hosting the artwork etc.  Its not like that section is ever even maintained.

Anyway, if you haven't actually noticed we've moved away from mame.net, the only official Mame site is now mamedev.com, which we have direct control over (unlike mame.net)

Screenshots, I can't think of a single case where somebody has kicked up a fuss over screenshots unless its been from an alpha / beta under a non-disclosure agreement so I'd say a precedent has been set in that posting screenshots is just fine.  People using MAME screenshots on ebay auctions is irritating tho, can't really see which version of a game something is, or if it works at all.

[RandyT]

IANAL, but given the nature of the MAME project, the screenshots may be covered under fair-use.  They are not being used for commercial advantage, but in support and demonstration of the effectiveness of the technology.

In other words, it's hard to show that something works, without showing it

But I could be wrong.

RandyT

[Adeptus]

Chris, Once the "TM" has been placed, all rights go to the person that put the TM next to it.

[Sasquatch!]

Guys, instead of trying to pick apart the legalities of it and trying to find loopholes in their request, just keep in mind "The MAME devs made these requests; and I will now choose to accept or ignore them."  There is no "right" and "wrong" with what they choose to do with their own name...they have the authority to ask whatever they wish.  Sheesh.

[Chris]

Reminds me of an Indiana Jones boardgame (or was it cardgame?)
They had a Nazi card/picture, with a TM after the word Nazi...

[KenToad]

Just wanted to say, you have made a good argument, Chris, very thought-provoking. 

Everyone who supports Mame (TM) quakes in their boots now whenever the program is used commercially and they reject additions that make the emulator function more easily in a commercial setting.  I've heard several people on these boards say that Mame is legal.  Is it really legal or has it just not been tested legally either separately or by a coalition of interested parties (Capcom, Namco, Sega, Nintendo, for instance) who might actually sue if the program starts getting media attention for, say, making millions for those guys selling the DVD's full of roms?  What have the legal challenges consisted of so far and why are MameDevs and others so fearful of the project for posterity being threatened if the project has already been legally tested? 

Any links or clarification would be appreciated.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Crazy Cooter]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

Everyone who supports Mame (TM) quakes in their boots now whenever the program is used commercially and they reject additions that make the emulator function more easily in a commercial setting.

MAME isn't intended to be used commercially.  Honestly, it isn't intended to be used in a cabinet that has a full ROM set either.  If it is used in a commercial environment, whoever does it is really opening themselves to some serious legal liability.  If commercial use is encouraged (through a FE that "manages" credits for example), it will raise flags for Capcom, Namco, Nintendo & the rest.  They won't aim for the emulator (MAME), they'll aim for the end user, the FE authors, and the rest of the people who make it easy to use MAME commercially.  Legally, MAME is legit.  But are the FE's?  Are the ROM Burners?  Are the sites that off the ROM's?  Are the ROM's on your machine?  Probably not because they aren't necessary to troubleshoot/archive/restore a pcb board.  So who is going to be brought into court?  The easy kills or the tough battle?

[Chris]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

It's possible, though, that some or all of the encryption-breaking stuff in MAME is illegal.

[KenToad]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

Everyone who supports Mame (TM) quakes in their boots now whenever the program is used commercially and they reject additions that make the emulator function more easily in a commercial setting.

MAME isn't intended to be used commercially.  Honestly, it isn't intended to be used in a cabinet that has a full ROM set either.  If it is used in a commercial environment, whoever does it is really opening themselves to some serious legal liability.  If commercial use is encouraged (through a FE that "manages" credits for example), it will raise flags for Capcom, Namco, Nintendo & the rest.  They won't aim for the emulator (MAME), they'll aim for the end user, the FE authors, and the rest of the people who make it easy to use MAME commercially.  Legally, MAME is legit.  But are the FE's?  Are the ROM Burners?  Are the sites that off the ROM's?  Are the ROM's on your machine?  Probably not because they aren't necessary to troubleshoot/archive/restore a pcb board.  So who is going to be brought into court?  The easy kills or the tough battle?

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but, if you're arguing that this guy shouldn't sell Mame related merchandise and that guy shouldn't make an FE that passes coin count, how does that relate to Mame and the posterity issue raised by Haze?

KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

What have the legal challenges consisted of so far and why are MameDevs and others so fearful of the project for posterity being threatened if the project has already been legally tested? 

I think MAME is on solid ground as far as the ability to simulate hardware in different software environments.

If anything MAME is on shaky ground on the "inducement to infringe" area.

See Patent Doc's comments earlier in the thread, here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37734.msg336870.html#msg336870

[Tiger-Heli]

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but, if you're arguing that this guy shouldn't sell Mame related merchandise and that guy shouldn't make an FE that passes coin count, how does that relate to Mame and the posterity issue raised by Haze?

Okay - look at this (fairly possible) scenario.

Guy makes FE that passes coin count.

Arcade operators build arcade emulator cabs using MAME and the new FE.

Namco sues arcade operators, FE author and MAME dev team b/c their Reunion game sales are sliding due to everyone using cheaper arcade emulator cabs with MAME and new FE.

MAME is found to infringe on NAMCO's rights (probably under the clause above) and all work on the project is ordered ceased.

Obscure bootleg board that Haze or Rb or other MAMEdev's were working on will never legally be decoded and documented, so posterity loses out.

Got it?

[Crazy Cooter]

Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.

Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.

[KenToad]

The BLEEM! emulator went through court (vs. Sony) and it was determined that emus are legal.

It's possible, though, that some or all of the encryption-breaking stuff in MAME is illegal.

I read a book about Nintendo's business history.  They have been in several lawsuits involving decryption, most memorably with Tengen.  You guys in your late twenties, like myself, will probably remember that Tengen made a far superior version of Tetris and some other cool games for the NES that were not given the official Nintendo seal of "quality."  Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.  Am I totally forgetting what went on there?  There were also a couple of other game companies that were sued and I can't remember the specific details here at work.  Also, I seem to have lost the book recently.  It had Mario flying on the front.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.  Have the MameDevs addressed these issues legitimately, especially with the recent decryption of the golf games and some other very profitable franchises (Tekken)? 

Cheers,
KenToad 

*Edit* 2 new replies while I was typing

Yeah, that makes sense to me, but, if you're arguing that this guy shouldn't sell Mame related merchandise and that guy shouldn't make an FE that passes coin count, how does that relate to Mame and the posterity issue raised by Haze?

Okay - look at this (fairly possible) scenario.

Guy makes FE that passes coin count.

Arcade operators build arcade emulator cabs using MAME and the new FE.

Namco sues arcade operators, FE author and MAME dev team b/c their Reunion game sales are sliding due to everyone using cheaper arcade emulator cabs with MAME and new FE.

MAME is found to infringe on NAMCO's rights (probably under the clause above) and all work on the project is ordered ceased.

Obscure bootleg board that Haze or Rb or other MAMEdev's were working on will never legally be decoded and documented, so posterity loses out.

Got it?

Tiger-Heli, so your argument is that Mame wouldn't be judged legal if it can be used in a commercial setting at all?  The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now.  It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment.  I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project.  No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment.  Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway. 

I support this project.  It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

Hope I didn't piss anyone off, least of all you, Tiger-Heli.  I just want this argument to continue to develop.  I think these are some of the most important issues concerning emulation today.  I welcome challenges to my arguments and especially further info.  I will check on the link you provided, Tiger-Heli, after I type this.  Thanks for that. 

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.
Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.

Right, plus currently it's small fish - i.e. Namco isn't going to spend $35,000 in court costs to go after a BYOAC member with a cab in their basement and get a judgement that could make them file bankruptcy which doesn't make them any money.

Give them a profitable corporation that they can go after . . .

[Chris]

Have the MameDevs addressed these issues legitimately, especially with the recent decryption of the golf games and some other very profitable franchises (Tekken)?

[Tiger-Heli]

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

Tiger-Heli, so your argument is that Mame wouldn't be judged legal if it can be used in a commercial setting at all?

Well, it's hard to say what is judged legal until someone judges it legal in court.  I think if it is used in a commercial setting, it could be illegal, not necessarily just because it could be used.  For example, JC Whitney used to (still does?) sell "test" pipes that were the exact size and mounting flange as your cars catalytic converter.  These were legal but installing them on your car in place of the cat was not...

The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now.  It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment.  I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project.  No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment.  Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway. 

I support this project.  It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

I don't quite follow your logic here.  If you are talking about encoders and steering wheels on E-bay, MAMEdev isn't trying to stop development of them, just not including MAME in the auction title.  If you are talking about FE's with coin counters, these either violate (in a commercial setting) or serve virtually no other purpose than to make it easier to violate the license of MAME.

And personally, whether or not it is used commercially, I think it could be shut down tomorrow on legal grounds, but I hope it isn't b/c I like playing the gameses.

Hope I didn't piss anyone off, least of all you, Tiger-Heli.

Takes a lot to piss me off, but I missed some of what you were trying to argue.

[Chris]

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.

[KenToad]

Or the MAME dev's just stop working with MAME to stay out of court and avoid a 6-figure lawyers bill.
Just because emu's were determined legal once before doesn't mean that Namco/Capcom et. al. won't spend money to "revisit the issue".  Right now, 99.9% of people just play with this stuff at home.  The gaming companies don't care enough to go to court and rehash this out.  Turn it into a cash producing venture by making it easy to drop games on location and it's a whole different animal.

Right, plus currently it's small fish - i.e. Namco isn't going to spend $35,000 in court costs to go after a BYOAC member with a cab in their basement and get a judgement that could make them file bankruptcy which doesn't make them any money.

Give them a profitable corporation that they can go after . . .

I don't know--99.9%?  I just don't understand how you guys can argue the "easier" point.  Mame is what makes it easy.  Mame is the only part of the equation that seems difficult for individual users to pull off alone.  I couldn't do either part.  I'm mostly paraphrasing what other programmers on this board have said.   

Are there any profitable corporations involved in Mame right now?   

Remember, just pushing the envelope of this argument.  I think PatentDoc was fairly ambiguous.  He seems to be taking the "just don't rock the boat and disagree with the MameDevs" line.  Maybe he will post more later like he said.

Cheers,
KenToad

*Edit*

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer. Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering. MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

I'll have to check on that again.  I really thought it was the reverse, that Tengen could have sold the games if they had developed a different method, such as a proprietary system that didn't alter or destroy Nintendo's technology, of getting around Nintendo's lockout.

The scenario you refer to is very debatable as to how simple it would be to implement right now. It seems like you guys are worried about the fuse on this bomb, blowing on it when you know it will explode at any moment. I support Mame wholeheartedly, but I don't accept the argument that it is not already an underground project. No users who support the continued development of this project want it to get any bigger, because they are afraid that it can be challenged at any moment. Given that reasoning, allowing the continued development of projects relating to Mame shouldn't be lorded over by anyone, least of all the developers of Mame, since the whole project is on shaky legal ground anyway.

I support this project. It just seems like some folks are justifying both ends of the debate, i.e. certain projects and/or commercial ventures shouldn't be allowed to continue because the advancement of accurate emulation must be allowed to continue, no matter that everyone seems to agree that many of the companies who own the rights to these boards do not agree.

I don't quite follow your logic here. If you are talking about encoders and steering wheels on E-bay, MAMEdev isn't trying to stop development of them, just not including MAME in the auction title. If you are talking about FE's with coin counters, these either violate (in a commercial setting) or serve virtually no other purpose than to make it easier to violate the license of MAME.

In a nutshell, what right do underground developers of software, which simulates proprietary hardware that they do not own, have to tell anybody else not to use their acronym in a commercial product?  Like Chris pointed out, nobody else does this, not even Microsoft unless, like you point out, it's an established business.  When an established business of some millions of dollars of legitimate income pops up, then let's get worried about the possible dominos falling into the mame project.

Cheers,
KenToad

[KenToad]

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

The DMCA makes the reverse engineering itself illegal now.  I'm not sure how that applies to projects that started before the DMCA became law, or the work that's gone on outsde the US.

Sorry, could you explain DMCA, please.  Also, I have to leave the argument for now.  I'll check back later.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Chris]

Sorry, could you explain DMCA, please.

[ChadTower]

It's funny to me.  I've been saying and posting for months that the amount of abuse of MAME, by people to make profit, as well as by people who simply do not respect MAME for what it is intended to be, has gone too far.  Every time I did I had to defend myself against multiple parties and was sent all sorts of nastygrams privately. 

This is the sort of thing I was trying to warn about.  If I were the MAME devs I'd have done it sooner, stronger, and I suspect it will be done that way before it is softened.

[Haze]

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

The DMCA makes the reverse engineering itself illegal now.  I'm not sure how that applies to projects that started before the DMCA became law, or the work that's gone on outsde the US.

recent exemptions made reverse engineering obsolete hardware legal.  while you could argue to mars and back what represents obsolete hardware the majority of the supported titles in MAME are no longer being sold by the original manufacturer.

this is the change that many misinterpeted as making all old software (roms etc.) perfectly legal to download, it isn't, what it does appear to clear up however is the emulation of protected titles (eg all the work that was done on the Sega S16 hardware recently; fantastic work too I may add, making 'suicide' arcade boards  should be a criminal offense, we're yet to find some of the older ones in working condition because the batteries are all dead and they can't be emulated until we do)

[Chris]

making 'suicide' arcade boards

[Haze]

Needless to say, as already observed, for the most part MAME has been left around, if any requests have been made to not include something we've respected those.

In the past MAME will have had little to no impact on actual arcade sales, but with an increasing number of people building and selling MAME cabs which can be operated for profit (and people hacking up the emulator to emulate games which are still being sold as new) the situation is changing somewhat.

Some may credit the continued interest in classic gaming to emulation, or that the popularity of emulators indicates there is still a market for such games, Arcade manufaturers have also noticed this, hence the rereleases on updated hardware.  Again this makes cabinets playing those games a more serious threat to the profits of the manufactuers.  (As pointed out by DF / Ultracade)

Anyway, it should be quite obvious that MAME was never intended as a project to take income away from the actual arcade manufacturers and that we need to try out best to make sure MAME is not being abused in that way.  MAME and emulation in general has become too popular, and thus too widely abused for its own good (and as previously stated we'd be quite happy if everybody just switched to something else and left us alone)

[Shape D.]

I understand pulling off auctions for people intentionally using the MAME name to sell a product. but are these being pulled as well?

Mame on Ebay


Mame (pronounced "Ma-May") and Shito are the smallest of bonsai, ideally being no more than 10cm in height, however Shito Bonsai can be so small that they are grown in pots the size of thimbles. Both terms refer to the size of the tree, so they may be seen in all .

[Crazy Cooter]

So I can see why the MAMEDevs want to go after infringers strongly.

[JB]

Nintendo sued and, if I remember correctly, it came out that Tengen had used reverse engineering and were forced to stop selling games.

I only vaguely remember the issue, but I think that's your answer.  Tengen wasn't in trouble for reverse engineering, but for selling games based on the reverse engineering.  MAME really isn't selling anything (although providing the same things free of charge would be the same thing, so MAME's not out of the soup).

Actually, Tengen got in trouble because they DIDN'T reverse engineer the lockout chip.

They illegally obtained a copy of the patent by claiming they needed it for a lawsuit against Nintendo, then used the patent information to make their own version of the lockout chip.

So Nintendo sued them and won.


Reverse-engineering is legal, provided it's done properly.

Note, for example, the oft-cited Bleem! legality.
One of Sony's first lawsuits was in regards to the PS1 BIOS. Bleem! pointed out that their emulated BIOS was reverse-engineered, with no original Sony code in it. They won, as they would win all the cases filed against them until they went bankrupt.

[KevSteele]

They won, as they would win all the cases filed against them until they went bankrupt.

There is an awful lot of truth about this situation in that one little sentence...

Kevin

[Lilwolf]

Wow... I'm REALLY amazed at this thread.

Chris, get over it.

[paigeoliver]

Earth to EVERYONE.

The horse got out of the barn 5 years ago. There have been self contained Mame powered zillion game JAMMA boards being made in Asia since 2000 (possibly earlier).

It has been going on for 5 years, without the Mame name, without ebay, and in a manner that all this nonsense is going to effect in absolutely no way whatsoever.

The fact is that those suckers STILL can't make money on location, neither can Ultracades or Reunion Machines or 39 in 1s. There just isn't any interest anymore.

There are two kinds of operators left, those that are out of business, and those that are only staying afloat by selling off their warehouses. Note places like Chuck E Cheese and Dave and Busters are restaurants, and are financially structured as such, and make their money on the food.

[Lilwolf]

I agree... But that doesn't mean anyone here should be openly going against the MAMEdev's wishes... just because they feel they are above that... or that they might not make as much money on their ebay items.

come on.  this is rediculous.