Newbie CP design...

[Sinner]

I've started to draw out a CP...I'm new to Illistrator, so forgive me if things aren't 100%....I've read the Project Arcade book, and I've gone through tons of information on this website, but there are just too many decisions to make and too many conficting opinions...
I already have the T-Stik plus joys and the supers, but I would replace the supers if need be...I also have an ipac, optipac, and a 3" TB from HAPP...

I'm in desperate need of suggestions and guidance...remember this is only a start from some with no experience..what are your thoughts...

[markrvp]

The trackball is too close to the front of the panel.

[Silverwind]

Looks sort of similar to my design.. with the exception that I am using only happ supers and happ buttons...

mine is a little large but very comfortable and easy to play on... 

[dema]

Similar comments to Markrvp

I'd rearrange the P3 and P4 buttons so they're facing the players, not the front of the CP. It'll be less comfortable to have them in a diamond pattern.

The spinner can stay there if you really want it there, but if you keep it I'd move the mouse buttons sideways so they aren't in the way when you're playing spinner games.

Move the start buttons so you'll have some room in the center.

Move the trackball forward a little bit.

[Sinner]

The trackball is too close to the front of the panel.

[Sinner]

I want to put my coin buttons, under the CP, and later on I want to connect them to a coin door...
Put the RESET, PAUSE and maybe the ESC buttons on top of the cabinet, above the marquee (ESC might go on the CP)...
I would like to keep the CP as clean as possible...

How about this?

[markrvp]

Looking good.  Now I would move the mouse buttons up to be inline with the spinner and Q-bert joystick.  That way you can use those two buttons for Tempest when using the spinner.

[Sinner]

OK, here's another update...
Will it be possible with what I have, to set it up to be able to play double joystick games? (IE: Karate Champ)
I read a thread somewhere about programing your P1 and P2 joys, to work with P3 and P4, so you can play 2 player...did I missunderstand?

[markrvp]

That's something NoOne=NBA mapped for IntruderAlert (and me).  Basicall player 1 would use joysticks 3 & 1, and player 2 would use joysticks 2 & 4.  Both would approach the control panel from 45 degrees.

[Sinner]

That's something NoOne=NBA mapped for IntruderAlert (and me).

[markrvp]

That's something NoOne=NBA mapped for IntruderAlert (and me).

[Bursk]

Here's another update...I took off 2" from the top, so the thing is now 48"x18"...I also moved things around a little, since my measurments were off (like I said before, I'm new to Illustrator)...

What are the distances from the bottom of the CP to the bottom of the TB, and from the bottom of the CP to the bottom of the lower row of buttons, now that you've changed things around?

[paigeoliver]

I have been a game player forever, and you can't put the trackball close ENOUGH to the front of the panel. You are only going to smack your hand on the FRONT of the machine if you utilize some really violent method of playing Capcom Bowling and Golden Tee Golf. Even most power golf game players start a drive with their fingertips on the trackball itself. Playing where you rare back and then impact the ball is needlessly overdoing it, will tear up the trackball and cabinet, and doesn't drive any further anyway. 

  Forget a Happ super for a Q*Bert stick. Best stick for QBert on a wood panel (that can be had from happs) is a Universal in 4-way mode. It will have the added bonus of not requiring you drill holes at a 45 degree angle, since it just installs in a hole. 

  Also, your player 3 and 4 joysticks are installed incorrectly in every picture. They DO NOT GET ANGLED. Up should be the exact same direction on all 4 joysticks. Every original 4-player game ever made has up as the same direction on all 4-joysticks. Unfortunately a lot of BYOAC people have incorrectly installed them, and then defended it later, resulting in more people making that mistake. You can trust every 4-player arcade game ever made, or you can trust a small minority of weekend cabinet builders, it is up to you. 

Also, related to the player 3 and 4 joys being angled. What is the point of installing a special joystick at a 45 degree angle to play qbert when you already have 2 other joysticks installed at 45 degree angles?? 

[Tiger-Heli]

That's something NoOne=NBA mapped for IntruderAlert (and me).  Basicall player 1 would use joysticks 3 & 1, and player 2 would use joysticks 2 & 4.  Both would approach the control panel from 45 degrees.

Actually, here is the thread that showed that - I thought it was pretty ingenious - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,36565.msg328723.html#msg328723

But it was also a thread started by Sinner, FWIW.

[Sinner]

What are the distances from the bottom of the CP to the bottom of the TB, and from the bottom of the CP to the bottom of the lower row of buttons, now that you've changed things around?

5.5" to the bottom of the bottom row of buttons...
4" to the bottom of the TB...

[Sinner]

I have been a game player forever, and you can't put the trackball close ENOUGH to the front of the panel. You are only going to smack your hand on the FRONT of the machine if you utilize some really violent method of playing Capcom Bowling and Golden Tee Golf. Even most power golf game players start a drive with their fingertips on the trackball itself. Playing where you rare back and then impact the ball is needlessly overdoing it, will tear up the trackball and cabinet, and doesn't drive any further anyway.

[Sinner]

That's something NoOne=NBA mapped for IntruderAlert (and me).

[paigeoliver]

That's something NoOne=NBA mapped for IntruderAlert (and me).  Basicall player 1 would use joysticks 3 & 1, and player 2 would use joysticks 2 & 4.  Both would approach the control panel from 45 degrees.

Actually, here is the thread that showed that - I thought it was pretty ingenious - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,36565.msg328723.html#msg328723

But it was also a thread started by Sinner, FWIW.

Thanks for the link...hey wait, that's a thread I started   
There are so many oppinions about joystick placement...some say angle the sticks, some say don't...I wish I knew someone with a 4 player cabinet, so i could try it out for myself...I may have to make a carboard mockup , wire player 3 up and give it a go...I think it's the only way to know for sure...

The research was already done for you by every single company that ever released a 4-player game. Not one of them EVER angled the sticks, not gauntlet, not TMNT, not 4 player snake games from 1977, no D&D, not Quartet, not ANY of them.

The sticks need to match the action on the screen, not the angle of the player.

[RayB]

The research was already done for you by every single company that ever released a 4-player game. Not one of them EVER angled the sticks, not gauntlet, not TMNT, not 4 player snake games from 1977, no D&D, not Quartet, not ANY of them.

The sticks need to match the action on the screen, not the angle of the player.

Exactly. I did find SOME games that angled the outside joys, but guess what? It was the crappy game Pitfighter. So that's not saying much.

Early Atari was extremely diligent in researching everything from player psychology and interface design, to cabinet design. Then Bushnell left, and things kinda went south. Games like Indian Jones, Road Runner, and Pitfighter are pretty crappy. So I wouldn't trust the "decisions" that went into those games, but I would definitely trust the amount of R&D that went into the earlier generation games.

[Sinner]

How about one of these? 
The straight one seems like it might be tight too tight, playing shoulder to shoulder with people...
I didn't put a HAPP Universal template in there, because I don't have one...I'll add that later when I find one...

[Tiger-Heli]

Look at the comments by IntruderAlert in the thread I posted above.

You mount the joysticks at a 45-degree angle to the screen and then switch them in MAME.

This way the sticks aren't running into the buttons.

So you go back to the initial design, but for 4-player games, P3 is mapped so up is UP-RIGHT, NOT UP, NOT RIGHT.

For Smash TV, you stand at a 45-degree angle - Left stick UP is mapped to P3 UP, but Right Stick Up is mapped to P1 UP-RIGHT, NOT UP, NOT RIGHT.

So you are basically rotating the sticks in MAME rather than physically doing it.

Also, should the Start buttons go 1-2-3-4 or 3-1-2-4 to match with the joysticks (for others who've done this)?

[markrvp]

Last night I layed in bed with my sick 3 year old and played Pacman on my laptop.  I used a small single joystick controller.  The joystick was resting on my stomach pointed toward my nose.  I was roughly 80 degrees off axis from the monitor.

I NEVER MISSED A BEAT.

I'm not disagreeing with Paige or RayB, but simply saying that UP on screen translates to AWAY FROM YOUR BODY.  If I were hanging upside down by my scrotum using a gamepad the same principal would apply.  Away from you is up, toward you is down, right is right and left is left AS YOU ARE ORIENTED TO THE JOYSTICK.

If you put all the joysticks facing up, then go with the straight across design.  If not, go with your original design.

One of the benefits of a DIY hobby is you are not locked into one way of doing things.  Paige likes the trackball close to the front, I like it 7" away from the front.  I don't hit the monitor when I smack the trackball.  Some people like T-Stiks; I hate them.  A LOT OF THIS HOBBY IS SUBJECTIVE.  You will get used to whatever you decide.  How Player 3 & 4 is oriented for your home machine is not as important as a commercial machine as you probably won't have 4 players playing it all the time.  If you need two joysticks for a game, use the Player 1 & 2 sticks.

And Tiger-Heli is right, the start buttons should go     3 - 1 - 2 - 4

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm not disagreeing with Paige or RayB, but simply saying that UP on screen translates to AWAY FROM YOUR BODY.  If I were hanging upside down by my scrotum using a gamepad the same principal would apply.  Away from you is up, toward you is down, right is right and left is left AS YOU ARE ORIENTED TO THE JOYSTICK.

This has been debated a LOT here in the past.  I think the example that convinced me was trying to use a mouse to move the cursor.  I.E. turn your chair 45 degrees to the screen and you can still move the mouse vertically with the mouse perpendicular to the screen (Up is toward the screen).  Align the mouse parallel to your body (up is away from you), and the mouse will track slightly diagonally even though you THINK you are moving it vertically.  Give it a try.  That said, I agree that it's largely subjective.  (And if you follow my advice you might have to explain to people that up means toward the screen not away from you.)

If you need two joysticks for a game, use the Player 1 & 2 sticks.

Well yeah, for Battle Zone or Assault, but Smash TV needs two joysticks per player.  Kinda awkward for the 2nd player to reach around and use the Player 3 and 4 sticks.  (Unless Player 1 is your wife/GF) - 

And Tiger-Heli is right, the start buttons should go     3 - 1 - 2 - 4

Thanks (I wasn't sure).

[markrvp]

Kinda awkward for the 2nd player to reach around and use the Player 3 and 4 sticks.

[Tiger-Heli]

The old reach-around and grab the joystick game.  This sounds like a fun game for my next party

Well for that one you'd want player 2 to be the wife/GF 

[markrvp]

Well for that one you'd want player 2 to be the wife/GF

[Sinner]

Hmmm, I'm getting more and more confused as to what I should do...
I thought maybe 3 people would play more often than 4 players, so I moved player 3 to the player 2 side and player 4 to the player 1 side...I fixed the player buttons to show this...
I like the straight design, because it makes games like Karate Champ easy to set up, but it doesn't leave a lot of room for players to be comfortable...
I'd also have tons of room left near the top of the CP...

[markrvp]

Hmmm, I'm getting more and more confused as to what I should do...

Now you know you are a full blown BYOAC'er.  I went through the same thing.  I built a nice 4p panel, but I'm building multiple panels now as that seems to be the best way to get authentic gameplay.

[Elkor]

Only have a 2player cab myself so I can't comment on the stick angle debate.  I agree with Oliver though on the trackball.  mine is as close as I could sandwich it to the front of the cab (because of all the people who said you'd smash your fingers playing golden tee, which I don't necessarily agree with either, I've NEVER felt the need to follow through on a trackball swing with a body lunge ) and I have had no issues whatsoever

[Sinner]

Is it better to have the CP slope towards the front, or is it OK to have it as a flat box?
I have limited skill, and I've never done this kind of stuff before.  I only have a few tools, and I'm not sure if I could actually build this on an angle without buying more.
I currently own...
Jigsaw
Circular saw
Router (plunge and fixed base)

I was thinking of buying a mitre box and a hand saw for cutting the angled pieces on the CP box, but I'm not sure how to slope the box.  Good idea to use a mitre box?

Making the whole thing slope towards the front poses another problem...

[markrvp]

What layout did you decide to use, the angled or straight? 

If you chose straight across then cutting the pieces to angle is a snap.  If you are using the original angled layout, then it is going to be more difficult.  I'm not sure I would have tried it on my 4P panel if I hadn't had a compound mitre saw.

[Veinman]

I sloped mine towards the front, and to do it I used a bandsaw on all the pieces. Then, once you have the panel sides all together, you sand until everything is on a nice and even slope.

Watch those fingers!

[Sinner]

What layout did you decide to use, the angled or straight?

[Sinner]

I sloped mine towards the front, and to do it I used a bandsaw on all the pieces. Then, once you have the panel sides all together, you sand until everything is on a nice and even slope.

Watch those fingers!

Thanks...i don't own one, but I suppose I could rent one...is it better to slop the CP??

[CheffoJeffo]

Is it better to have the CP slope towards the front, or is it OK to have it as a flat box?
I have limited skill, and I've never done this kind of stuff before.  I only have a few tools, and I'm not sure if I could actually build this on an angle without buying more.
I currently own...
Jigsaw
Circular saw
Router (plunge and fixed base)

I was thinking of buying a mitre box and a hand saw for cutting the angled pieces on the CP box, but I'm not sure how to slope the box.  Good idea to use a mitre box?

Making the whole thing slope towards the front poses another problem...

You could always build a flat box and just angle the mounting in the cabinet.

The CP enclosure on my multi-jamma would be 100% flat if you pulled it out of the machine, but it is tilted forward in the cabinet.

Does that make sense (didn't sleep much last night) ?

Cheers.

[Sinner]

Perfect sense...I thought of that, but if I screw up those cuts, that's the better parts of a sheep of MDF gone...I'm really intimidated by this whole wood working thing...I see some of the stuff people on this site have built, and I'm just amazed...it also makes me a bit nervous about building my own...

[JThw8]

I thought maybe 3 people would play more often than 4 players, so I moved player 3 to the player 2 side and player 4 to the player 1 side...

Same thing I did with my cab.  Im more likely to only have 2 or 3 players and I almost always take the #1 slot so if someone is going to be crowded let it be the other guy   Not that I have much crowding on a 49x26 CP


(ignore my absolute idiot measureing mistake on my CPO, workin on a solution to that now)

[markrvp]

if I screw up those cuts, that's the better parts of a sheep of MDF gone...

Oh dear, now you've gone and used sheep to make your cabinet.   

[Sinner]

if I screw up those cuts, that's the better parts of a sheep of MDF gone...

Oh dear, now you've gone and used sheep to make your cabinet.

[Sinner]

I've been busy working on a Bartop cabinet, so I haven't really thought much about this CP...though, today I've just thrown out some general ideas...I have the wood, the parts and the tools, I just don't have the layout yet...what about something like these??
I've added coin buttons to the top of the CP, but this might change again.  I also fixed the dual joystick game, by adding another joystick to player 1 and player 2...still not 100% sure how this will all go together, and I have to work out the spacing, but I'm thinking about it and that's what matters right now...