What joystick to use? Again...

[maxxonline]

Im sorry if this has been asked a thousand times.

[Hoagie_one]

If I was building a 4 player cab from scratch today, I'd use 2 49-ways with the GP49wiz interface and rotary attachment \ Druins interface for player's 1 and 2.  I would just use Supers for players 3 & 4.

[Dagg]

I can tell you which on to rule out.

Happs Ultimate is basically total poo.

[dphirschler]

I'm very happy with the Happs Supers.  But I am curious about the 49-way with the Gwiz90 thing.


Darryl

[testicle187]

If you love fighters you really cannot beat the Perfect 360s from Happ.  Also, just because you can't switch them from 4 to 8 way from the top does not mean it is difficult.  You just take off an E-Clip and flip over a black plastic piece attached to the end of the shaft.  Simple as that.  My 2 cents.

[Kremmit]

I want to have a 4 player cp with games running in MAME for anything from fighting games to the older games like Joust and Galaga.

I also would like to have a 5th controller, a dedicated 4 way stick for the older games mentioned above since the 4-way is better for playing games like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong.  But this leads me to another question for that as well -

3. What 4-way stick do you use?
4. Which one is better for that? (I didn

[Tiger-Heli]

I posted earlier, but you're asking slightly different questions now.

If I was building a 4 player cab from scratch today, I'd use 2 49-ways with the GP49wiz interface and rotary attachment \ Druins interface for player's 1 and 2.  I would just use Supers for players 3 & 4.

Agree with Hoagie here - If money were no object, I would use the GP-Wiz49's and dual 49-ways for P1 and P2, and standard 8-ways for P3 and P4, with or without the rotary adapter, and then you won't need the 4-way stick.

If money were an object, I would go with separate 8-ways and 4-ways, as follows -

8-ways - Either super or Competitions, depending on if you like the fighters that need round motions (Supers) or the ones that need accurate corners (Comps).

For the Four-way - The Happ Ms-Pac reunion is well liked, get it from Bob Roberts.  If you don't want to top mount with a metal plate, you can mount it below panel and then get one of the GroovyGameGear replacement handles.  Downside is it uses lever action micro's which might need some "tweaking" for proper feel (same goes for Supers above).

The J-Stick from Ultimarc is popular, but you can hit diagonals with it.

The Prodigy is extremely accurate in 4-way mode - The Omni-Stik is the same stick without the actuator, so you could use it, but the best way to mount it is with a mounting plate above the panel, which doubles the price.

The Seimitsu's are well-rated, but only available on E-bay and not usually advertised as such.  See them at http://www.himuragames.com/store_joysticks.php, but no prices yet.  And they really need to be top mounted.

[paigeoliver]

My personal opinions.

All old type Wico joysticks (grommet or spring, microswitch or leaf switch), are tops. This INCLUDES the perfect 360, which despite being a Happ product is in the classic Wico family. Spring loaded Wico sticks do require the spring to be upgraded to a "Happ heavy spring" from Bob Roberts to keep them from being too bouncy, but the spring Wicos are rare.

Happ Super is a good middle of the road joystick.

The Ultimate and Competition are terrible. The main problem with them is that they are not evenly divided between diagonals are primary directions. A good stick should be 50 percent diagonals and 50 percent primary directions. The Ultimate and Competition are roughly 70 percent diagonals and only 30 percent primary directions. Try playing Robotron with them and watch the majority of shots go into the corners.

I like the Universal in 4-way mode, it is nice. Not so nice in 8-way mode.

The Happ's Ms. Pac-Man joystick is also a great stick and it will take the handle from a Super, so you can have all matching sticks.

T-Stick/T-Stick plus. Nice sticks, really precise, but these have a TINY TINY SHORT THROW. Younger people who grew up on consoles seem to have no problems with these, older gamers used to long throw Wico sticks will hate them.

[markrvp]

I agree with everything everybody said 

[dabone]

I just built a panel with the 49 ways to replace my t-stick pluses, and good lord the difference in throw.



Later,
dabone

[fl0yd]

I just built a panel with the 49 ways to replace my t-stick pluses, and good lord the difference in throw.

I can't tell if you like the throw better or worse.

[dabone]

I haven't decided yet.



 

(My other fighter cab has p360s in it. The 49 ways have about twice the throw of those and the tsticks have no throw to speak of.)


My 7 year old said the 49 ways were harder for her to use, but they aren't broken in yet.


Later,
dabone

[Timstuff]

Happ's "Perfect 360" is apparently the cream of the crop, but at $40 a piece they're not exactly wallet friendly. Retroblast.com speaks fairly high of the Happ Competition joysticks, and those are the ones I plan on using.

[maxxonline]

Thanks guys for all the replies to my questions im glad you are all here to help people like me out or I would be stuck

[markrvp]

The 49-ways are a little different from any other stick in that they have a long throw.

[Kremmit]

and for the 5th stick (dedicated 4 way):  The Happs Ms-Pac reunion.  Which I guess you are refering to this stick http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/5060841125r.htm

But can that be mounted in MDF?  it says only metal cp's?

The stick I linked to before, and the one markrvp linked directly above, are both the same stick- and it's the adjustable-handled version of the Ms. Pac / Galaga reunion stick, for use in thick or thin panels.  Somebody around here got one with a non-adjustable, tall handle from Betson- they sell it as a Qix stick, if I remember right.

[paigeoliver]

Happ's "Perfect 360" is apparently the cream of the crop, but at $40 a piece they're not exactly wallet friendly. Retroblast.com speaks fairly high of the Happ Competition joysticks, and those are the ones I plan on using.

Hee hee, they are over $50 once you put repro Wico handles on them. Still, they are the best, and that is what I run in my good cabinet.

[JODY]

and for the 5th stick (dedicated 4 way):

[Kremmit]

Even routing out a lot of the wood leaves the stock handle kinda short.  www.groovygamegear sells replacement ball handles for the competition which work on it.  Same length handle as the comps.  There is a thread on here somewhere with some pics I posted of a red translucent one.

I think you'll find it's the Super handle that fits that base, not the Competition.

[paigeoliver]

Also, stock Super Handles work on the Reunion stick as well, which means you can match them up with your other 2 (or 4) joysticks and have them all look the same.

[Kremmit]

Happ's "Perfect 360" is apparently the cream of the crop, but at $40 a piece they're not exactly wallet friendly. Retroblast.com speaks fairly high of the Happ Competition joysticks, and those are the ones I plan on using.

Hee hee, they are over $50 once you put repro Wico handles on them. Still, they are the best, and that is what I run in my good cabinet.

Happ usually has a sale on the P360 about once a year, when they become affordable.  If you want them, hold off on buying them until the sale comes around again, or you get everything else built.

[Tiger-Heli]

You're mainly dealing with personal preferences on the joysticks, largely related to the amount of travel (throw) which is largely a preference thing.

For an encoder, the I-PAC/2 is good, but you should also consider either the KeyWiz or the GP-Wiz from www.groovygamegear.com.  Any of the three is a good solution, depending on what features you want.

BTW, from what I have read, I think the 49-way's throw is about comparable to the Super or Happ P360, not Double, although it may well be triple the T-Stick Plus (if that makes sense).

Now another question, for the 49-way stick - its pretty much the same as the regulare sticks except you just have to use a floppy cable to hook into the GP-Wiz49 and then that runs out USB to the computer right?

Errrm- yes and no - see the 13-page thread about the GP-Wiz49 - it doesn't hook up anything like the other sticks - 7 pins IMS, as opposed to 4 microswitches.  Also, it is seen by the computer as an Analog joystick, not as 4 switches.  Also, you can set it up so games think it is a 2-way (vertical or horizontal), 4-way, rotated 4-way, 8-way, or analog (49-way) stick.  Also, the GP-Wiz49 gives you 23 buttons per interface, so you may not need a separate (I-PAC or KeyWiz or GP-Wiz) encoder.

Im not so much worried about players 1-4 having to run any 4 way stick games... at least I dont think there is any... because isnt most of the 4 way stick games turn based, where player 1 goes and then player 2 goes after them?

Yes, that is correct.  I can take your comment one of two ways, though.

If you are asking if you can get by with one 4-way stick and 4 8-ways rather than the 49-way, the answer is "Yes, but you lose the rotated 4-way, 2-way, etc. modes that the 49-way stick affords."

If you are asking if you can ditch the 4-way stick and use a single 49-way stick for P1 and 8-ways for P2 through P4, the answer is "Yes, but you will want the throw on P2 and feel to match P1 for any 2 player simultaneous games".  Your best bet is dual 49-way sticks, and a 49-way Stick for P1 and a T-Stick for P2 would be a terrible option.

[Bursk]

I'm particularly interested in how the 49 Ways compare to the p360s for fighting games.

[maxxonline]

You're mainly dealing with personal preferences on the joysticks, largely related to the amount of travel (throw) which is largely a preference thing.

For an encoder, the I-PAC/2 is good, but you should also consider either the KeyWiz or the GP-Wiz from www.groovygamegear.com.

[fl0yd]

It looks like there is software that comes with the 49-way that you can load on your pc that will allow you to change the setup functions of the 49-way joystick to be a 4-way or an 8-way or what ever you want, does this actually work in the games running through MAME?

To date I haven't heard of direct mame or front-end support.  I would expect front end support for this to come very soon though. 

Some people have setup their own batch files to esentially do what the front end support will do.

[KenToad]

It looks like there is software that comes with the 49-way that you can load on your pc that will allow you to change the setup functions of the 49-way joystick to be a 4-way or an 8-way or what ever you want, does this actually work in the games running through MAME?

To date I haven't heard of direct mame or front-end support. I would expect front end support for this to come very soon though.

Some people have setup their own batch files to esentially do what the front end support will do.

Software doesn't need to support it to function.  I'm not following what you're saying about frontend support there, Floyd.  Otherwise, as I understand it, the software support that RandyT implemented in the second run of GP Wiz 49's was just to make it as simple and clean as possible, not to mention versatile, to switch modes.  Mame or any other software just accepts the inputs that they have been coded to accept.  If you set the GP Wiz 49 to be restricted to diagonal inputs only and play Ikari Warriors, your man will only move in the diagonal directions, since the joystick encoder is only giving the signals: Up+Right, Down+Right, Down+Left, Up+Left. 

Hope that helps clear up the confusion. 

Cheers,
KenToad 

[Tiger-Heli]

You're missing several key points, but you're getting there . . .

Ok so I was re-reading this post and thought of something else, if the 49-way sticks are good and you want to use 2 sticks or 4 sticks depending on your setup (I would like 4) then each stick has to have a GP-Wiz49 MAX 49-Way Joystick USB Interface from www.groovygamegear.com

Every 49-way stick that you want to use needs it's own GP-Wiz49 interface, but that also gives you 23 buttons each.  So you get 46 buttons with 2 sticks, or 92 buttons with 4.  As I think Hoagie one said, you don't really need super good sticks for P3 and P4 for TMNT or Simpsons or the other handful of 4-Player games, so you could use Supers for these and get by with two 49-ways.

That equals 4, 49-way joysticks PLUS 4, GP-Wiz49 boards all running to USB ports (taking up 4 USB ports) so I guess you would need a USB HUB for this?

Maybe, maybe not - most mobos have 2 rear ports and probably 4 more ports on headers.  I USB Hub should work, but wouldn't be the ideal solution.

Has anyone done this setup?

Someone (IntruderAlert ?) did, but I'm not sure who.

It looks like there is software that comes with the 49-way that you can load on your pc that will allow you to change the setup functions of the 49-way joystick to be a 4-way or an 8-way or what ever you want, does this actually work in the games running through MAME?

This should confuse you more, given Fl0yd's post.  Yes - the software works.  Not just in MAME, but in ANY PC program.  You do have to launch the software and change the modes through software before the sticks will change modes.

There are efforts underway to set it up so the front-end parses controls.ini or MAME and finds out what mode the game requires and automatically switches the stick (what Fl0yd mentioned), but it is still a WIP.

Essentially what I am wanting to do is have a 4 player panel with 4 really good joysticks and then 1 dedicated 4 way that I don

[maxxonline]

Also when you say "throw" of the joystick I didn't really grasp that concept so what I did was last night I went to Gamestop and Fry's electronics to pick up the Pelican Real Arcade stick (39.99) and a Soyo KiKy Playstation 2 to USB adapter (9.99) in order to test how a joystick feels in MAME (which I couldn

[Tiger-Heli]

Also when you say "throw" of the joystick I didn't really grasp that concept . . .

Throw refers to how far the stick moves from the center point to the stop.  A short-throw stick might be 1/4-inch, while a long throw might be almost an inch.  From a not-yet-finished web page:

Amount of stick travel - This is how far the joystick can be moved from center.   With a well constructed joystick, there is an advantage to a joystick with short travel.  Consider the following - in PacMan, a common move is to head into the center tunnel, fake right-left-right a few times to slow the PacMan down, and then proceed back out.  Obviously if the stick has less travel, moves like this are much easier to accomplish.  Is there a downside to short travel?  Well, yes.  Let's say as I move the stick fully right, I accidentally move it down about 10 mm.  If the stick has a lot of travel, I might not even activate the down-right diagonal.  If it has very little travel, I might be basically fully down instead of right at all.  So shorter travel has less "margin for error" and requires more precision (stiffer springs) and more accurate positioning of the joystick during gameplay.

Is this because of the cheap stick?  or is this what can be expected?

My guess is the cheap stick, but I don't play fighters.

Man that's a lot of typing, sorry for all the information and questions I feel like I write a mini novel every time I post 

Now you know how I feel.

Maybe I should take up that hobby instead.. hehe naa!  it wouldn

[KenToad]

Also when you say "throw" of the joystick I didn't really grasp that concept so what I did was last night I went to Gamestop and Fry's electronics to pick up the Pelican Real Arcade stick (39.99) and a Soyo KiKy Playstation 2 to USB adapter (9.99) in order to test how a joystick feels in MAME (which I couldn

[KenToad]

It looks like there is software that comes with the 49-way that you can load on your pc that will allow you to change the setup functions of the 49-way joystick to be a 4-way or an 8-way or what ever you want, does this actually work in the games running through MAME?

This should confuse you more, given Fl0yd's post.  Yes - the software works.  Not just in MAME, but in ANY PC program.  You do have to launch the software and change the modes through software before the sticks will change modes.

There are efforts underway to set it up so the front-end parses controls.ini or MAME and finds out what mode the game requires and automatically switches the stick (what Fl0yd mentioned), but it is still a WIP.

I didn't think you needed software to run the GP Wiz 49.  I thought it was coded into the firmware and the software was entirely optional.  So you don't have to launch the software, just activate the hotkey and choose your mode of restriction, just need a few hardware switches.  Am I missing something?  I'm not really an electronics person.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Tiger-Heli]

It looks like there is software that comes with the 49-way that you can load on your pc that will allow you to change the setup functions of the 49-way joystick to be a 4-way or an 8-way or what ever you want, does this actually work in the games running through MAME?

This should confuse you more, given Fl0yd's post.  Yes - the software works.  Not just in MAME, but in ANY PC program.  You do have to launch the software and change the modes through software before the sticks will change modes.

There are efforts underway to set it up so the front-end parses controls.ini or MAME and finds out what mode the game requires and automatically switches the stick (what Fl0yd mentioned), but it is still a WIP.

I didn't think you needed software to run the GP Wiz 49.  I thought it was coded into the firmware and the software was entirely optional.  So you don't have to launch the software, just activate the hotkey and choose your mode of restriction, just need a few hardware switches.  Am I missing something?  I'm not really an electronics person.

Cheers,
KenToad

KenToad is correct.

Technically, there are four ways to change modes with the GP-Wiz49 -

1)  Press the mode button and the corresponding button (doubles as an action button).

2)  Wire up a rotary switch and rotate it to change modes (loses 8 buttons from the capability).

3)  Manually launch the software and change modes, then launch your game.

4)  Have the software run automatically and change modes based on calls from your front-end (only minimally implemented).

[Kremmit]

I'm also a fighter fan, especially Street Fighter 2: Hyper Fighting and I too was worried about joysticks being good for repeatedly performing especially the quarter circles and dragon punch maneuvers.  What I ended up getting, after much searching like you, was to get a couple of Competition joysticks from Happ.  These things feel great, although a few people on this board hate them.  I can perform all those special moves with virtually no difficulty or thought--my big test was to take Ken all the way across the screen both directions just using the dragon punch.  So, I have competions with a Keywiz eco (for player 2 and other buttons) and a hacked psx pad (for player 1) and will never look back.  Truthfully, although the grommets on my 49 way joysticks are still fresh and new (A lot of folks have mentioned that the grommets need to be broken in at first in order to feel great), I don't think I want to use the 49 ways even in 8 way mode to play fighters.  All the fighters I ever played felt just like the competition joys, or at least that's what I remember. 

Most 90's era games had Happ joysticks in them, and most of those were Ultimates and Competitions.  That's why they feel "right" to a fighter fan- they're what you were using when you played them for real.

Maxxonline-  It doesn't sound like you care about Ikari Warriors and the rotary games, and I also don't hear you saying you really have to play Sini-Star, Road Runner, Qbert or Congo Bongo.  It does sound like you care about the fighters and having a real 4-way for "the classics".  If that's all you really need, you can save a lot of cash by getting 4 Supers or 4 Competitions, plus one 4-way, and calling it good.  You'll need ONE keyboard encoder, either a KeyWiz or an I-Pac4.  And that's all. 

If you go this route, you will not be able to play any rotary games, and games that use a 49-way, analog, or Hall-Effect stick will play badly.  Q-bert and Congo Bongo won't play as well as they should, althougth there is a workaround that will be OK but not perfect with those sticks.  But all the 8-way games, including your fighters, will play great, and so will all the 4-way classics.  That's a lot of games, for a lot less $$.  Since I don't hear you saying you need those other games, this is my new reccomendation.

PS- and if you do decide on Supers, buy a Ms. Pac Reunion stick at the same time, plus an extra Super handle.  That way all 5 sticks will match.  Unless you prefer the 4-way to have the balltop, of course. 

Oh, and you can probably save some more by buying those sticks from Ponyboy instead of ordering direct from Happ.  He can get your buttons, too.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just some additional details -

If that's all you really need, you can save a lot of cash by getting 4 Supers or 4 Competitions, plus one 4-way, and calling it good.  You'll need ONE keyboard encoder, either a KeyWiz or an I-Pac4.  And that's all. 

Actually, for a four-player panel, it's a lot of compromising to use a KeyWiz alone (but possible).  You probably want either:
1) An I-PAC4
2) A KeyWiz and a GP-Wiz, or
3) Two GP-Wiz's.

Q-bert and Congo Bongo won't play as well as they should, althougth there is a workaround that will be OK but not perfect with those sticks.

I think NoOne=NBA has a thread on that, but it basically consists of mapping the inputs to "UP RIGHT, NOT UP, NOT RIGHT", etc.

Oh, and you can probably save some more by buying those sticks from Ponyboy instead of ordering direct from Happ.  He can get your buttons, too.

Or www.therealbobroberts.com or TornadoTerry on E-bay.

[Bursk]

Kremmit,

I had been hoping that I could do a '49 way fits all' kind of CP, but fighters are a big part of what I enjoy about retrogaming.  I suppose there was always going to have to be a compromise, and having to decide between having p360s or 49 ways is one of those tough choices.

Maybe what I'll end up doing is having one CP for fighters (and other 8 way games) and 4 way games, and a second CP with 49 ways, a trackball and spinner.  This would cover most things, I'd have thought, and will have the advantage of not having too cluttered a CP.

[KenToad]

Maybe what I'll end up doing is having one CP for fighters (and other 8 way games) and 4 way games, and a second CP with 49 ways, a trackball and spinner.  This would cover most things, I'd have thought, and will have the advantage of not having too cluttered a CP.

Yup, two CP's at least, because I need things to be small and uncluttered and I need my fighters and my classics to feel authentic.  Good luck with whatever designs you decide upon implementing.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Bursk]

Cheers, KenToad.  Thanks for your reports on the 49 ways.

*flap, flap, flap*

[KenToad]

Cheers, KenToad.  Thanks for your reports on the 49 ways.

*flap, flap, flap*

No problem.  I'll give it a more full review soon after I have tested them more.

Cheers,
KenToad

[Kremmit]

Actually, for a four-player panel, it's a lot of compromising to use a KeyWiz alone (but possible).

That's what I was thinking too, and was just going to suggest the I-Pac4, but then I priced it out at GGG and at Ultimarc- with the "One Click Shazaam! Adaptors" and one KeyWiz Eco (solder), he can get up to 56 inputs for less money than a 56 input I-Pac4.  More work, but cheaper.  (Always a trade off...)

Kremmit,

I had been hoping that I could do a '49 way fits all' kind of CP, but fighters are a big part of what I enjoy about retrogaming.  I suppose there was always going to have to be a compromise, and having to decide between having p360s or 49 ways is one of those tough choices.

Maybe what I'll end up doing is having one CP for fighters (and other 8 way games) and 4 way games, and a second CP with 49 ways, a trackball and spinner.  This would cover most things, I'd have thought, and will have the advantage of not having too cluttered a CP.

Your case of BYOAC disease has progressed very rapidly, I see.  Now you need to look here:
http://www.beersmith.com/mame/

[RandyT]

I just wanted to add my 2-cents to this one.  Fighters can be be played quite effectively with the 49-ways in 8-way DRS mode, but as others have said, the mechanical feel will be a little different than what you were used to if you played these heavily in the arcades. 

Just for reference purposes, I have no problems continuously pulling off special moves in fighters with the 49-ways, but there was a brief adjustment period as there would be with any stick not identical to what you are used to using. 

I agree with what's been said here, though.  If the primary focus of your panel is fighters, you should try to replicate the original controls as closely as possible, and that probably means a "competition" style microswitch based joystick of some nature.

RandyT