Newsweek Allegations

[Santoro]

I hate politcal threads, so isn't normally like me to start my own.

[ChadTower]

Doesn't even matter... Newsweek made a false report, caused riots, and people died.

[missioncontrol]

Doesn't even matter... Newsweek made a false report, caused riots, and people died.

and will continue to make money printing magazines

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Doesn't even matter... Newsweek made a false report, caused riots, and people died.

Why are we supposed to hold a news rag to a higher standard than our own government?

No WMD, forged documents, fixed intel...and I hear some people died?!
mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Not to ruin the party here, but the allegation of Koran desecration, specifically the kind that involves the use of a toilet in the act, pre-dates the Newsweek article in no less than four various publications, featuring multiple sources.

The trouble for Newsweek began when the specific source used by Isikoff for the Newsweek article only changed his tune after heat came down from the Pentagon, and only then did the say he couldn't remember which specific military action report he read it in, never that it wasn't true. It's important to note that the actual claim that Koranic desecration had actually taken place has never officially been denied by the Pentagon. It's also important to note that Isikoff's article was vetted by the Pentagon days before it was ever published, and they did not object to this claim of abuse. Later still, the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff said, in the days before the White House became involved, "that he has been told that the Jalalabad, Afghanistan, rioting was related more to the ongoing political reconciliation process in Afghanistan than anything else".

Basically, Newsweek is being blamed for reporting the truth we all know. Torture had taken place at Abu Gharib in Iraq, and it has been taking place at Gitmo, some of it most likely involving the desecration of Islam's most holy icon. It seems to me that this latest "scandal" involving Newsweek is just the latest attempt by this administration and it's supporters to pin the blame for the civil unrest, limitless destruction, and rampant inflamed Anti-Americanism in the middle east on anybody else but to whom it truly belongs.

mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

latest attempt by this administration and it's supporters to pin the blame for the civil unrest, limitless destruction, and rampant Anti-Americanism in the middle east on anybody else but to whom it truly belongs.

The middle east loved us before this administration.

Well except for the guys who tried to blow up the world trade center during Clinton's administration, or the guys that kidnapped those Americans during Carter's administration...

Mr C is not responsible for Anti-Americanism in the middle east, all he's doing is looking at the grid girls thread when he's not claiming that religions are for the uneducated masses...

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Well except for the guys who tried to blow up the world trade center during Clinton's administration, or the guys that kidnapped those Americans during Carter's administration...

or the guys funded by Reagan in Afghanistan (Bin Laden) and trained by his C.I.A., who have since gone on to establish Al Qaeda.

As usual, you fail to address my post, instead choosing to whine about partisan attacks that are easily defused with additional information that you (not so cleverly) choose to leave out (see above) because they don't support your (very same) partisan attack. So I'm just going to assume you can't show any evidence to refute me and we'll all move along to discussing the matter at hand.

Koran desecrations involving the use of toilets had been reported *before* Newsweek's article. Multiple times.

mrC

[Crazy Cooter]

So. if Islam is truly not a violent religion, what accounts for this? Is violence in the culture, as opposed to the religion?

[Dartful Dodger]

You claimed that this administration is causing

[danny_galaga]

"you supply the pictures, and i'll supply the war"- william randolph hearst.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You claimed that this administration is causing

[DrewKaree]

MrC, I cleaned up your phrasing a bit to make it truthful.  I figured the blinders were making it hard to type.  It's a bit old, which makes me wonder how you could remember it, but I guess you ran it through the Wayback Machine before posting.  Not hard to believe you missed the mark by so much, but thankfully we're around to help get your version of the truth back on track. 

In the future, try and let us know before posting such quantities....we'll be sure to know to wear boots before treading about.

Not to ruin the party here, but the allegation of Saddam posessing weapons, specifically WMD's, the kind used on his own people, was known and accepted intelligence agencies worldwide, which would feature multiple sources.

The trouble for the Bush administration began when willful ignorance of the numerous sources didn't cause Bush to change his tune due to heat from the media, and only after realizing this did the media decide it didn't matter what specific military action report they may be allowed to read it in, they couldn't possibly allow that this could possibly be true. It's important to note that the actual claim of WMD's wasn't the primary, nor ONLY reason given, but Dems never let that stop them from officially denying it.  It's also important to note that Bush's speech giving his reasons was and can be vetted by anyone interested in reading with their own eyes what was actually said, but to do so may cause them to not object to this particular claim.

Basically, the Bush administration is being blamed for acting on a truth nations around the globe all knew. Torture had taken place in Iraq, and it has been taking place at Sadaam's whims, some of it involving the WMD's on Iraq's people  It seems to me that "scandal" involving the Bush administration is just an attempt by the divisive opposition who care so little about applying the same standards to their past judgements as they are to current actions that would require an inordiant amount of ignorance to believe WOULDN'T cause civil unrest, limitless destruction, and rampant inflamed Anti-Americanism in the middle east which no doubt would be attempted to pin upon on anybody else but to whom it truly belongs, the "reporter" in question.

As usual, I've instead chosen to whine and offer partisan attacks that are easily defused with additional information that I (not so cleverly) choose to appear ignorant on (see above) because they don't support my (very same) partisan attack. So you'll have to assume I could care less about any evidence to refute me and we'll all move along to discussing the matter at hand.

Bush acted on intelligence reports involving Iraq's WMD's which *OTHER* nations believed to be true.  Multiple nations

mrC
/quote]

Are you ill?  I hear a hacking cough there.   Decide what standards you want to apply, but apply them to everyone.  Inventing excuses for reporters who give information 180 degrees from intelligence report(er)s that gets people killed makes it sound like you just don't agree with certain reports because of what party they came from.

There's nothing Newsweek should apologize for.  They pointed out something America should have known about how radical middle eastern folks long ago.  Unfortunately, America REQUIRES stories like these to remind them of this knowledge.

[Crazy Cooter]

Drew I withdrew your boldness and applied it to the topic at hand.

the allegation of the Koran flushing, was known and accepted to media agencies worldwide, which was featured in multiple sources.

...and the next...

Newsweek acted on media reports involving topics which *OTHER* media outlets believed to be true.  Multiple nations

Check and mate.

[DrewKaree]

I fixed that for you brudda!

Drew I withdrew your boldness and applied it to the topic at hand. Check and mate.

....but I thought you were gonna keep it a secret?  I mean, I don't care, but once your fetish gets out......

[jbox]

I think most would agree this is true.  So. if Islam is truly not a violent religion, what accounts for this? Is violence in the culture, as opposed to the religion?  Can they be separated??

Sure, if you take religion to be the conclusions obtained from merely accepting the truth of a particular statement; while culture is merely the adoption of the habits of our parents via immitation. You can make your culture religous, and you can build a religous culture (eg. RCC), but there is such a thing as a non-religous culture, which is that aspect of your every day life that is *convienient* rather than *unexplainable*. 

Not shooting people walking down the street doesn't need religion to explain any more than you not jumping up and grabbing a falling star does. However, when a culture regresses to a level where the employment of logic is considered a sin, and people are no longer of value unless they agree with you, then you have a big mud bath that will take decades to wallow out of. 

The article does seem to be a rather long winded rehash of the well known principle that most people start with an opinion and then look for facts... 

[Crazy Cooter]

However, when a culture regresses to a level where the employment of logic is considered a sin, and people are no longer of value unless they agree with you, then you have a big mud bath that will take decades to wallow out of.

[fredster]

The article does seem to be a rather long winded rehash of the well known principle that most people start with an opinion and then look for facts... 

I totally agree with that.

Most, if not all, of your postings reflect this principle.

NEWSWEEK LIED PEOPLE DIED

[saint]

Well, not to sound too tree-huggerish, but I'd be more inclined to post it this way:

Newsweek screwed up, people died.

"Newsweek lied" implies they deliberately printed a false story. I am extremely dismayed by this story, but I don't think it comes up to the level of them deciding to deliberately inflame the populace by fabricating a story. I think they jumped on something they thought was pertinent/newsworthy/juicy/insert-word-of-your-choice-here and got it wrong.

The article does seem to be a rather long winded rehash of the well known principle that most people start with an opinion and then look for facts... 

I totally agree with that.

Most, if not all, of your postings reflect this principle.

NEWSWEEK LIED PEOPLE DIED

[ChadTower]

Well, not to sound too tree-huggerish, but I'd be more inclined to post it this way:

Newsweek screwed up, people died.

I partially agree.  I think it's more like:

Newsweek ignored the most basic tenets of journalism ethics, people died.

[Crazy Cooter]

I partially agree. I think it's more like:

Newsweek ignored the most basic tenets of journalism ethics, people died.

The biggest issue I have is who is demanding Newsweek apologize.

Newsweek The US ignored the most basic tenets of journalism ethics the Genva Convention, people died.  People were held prisoner, people are STILL being held prisoner.

It's like me telling someone not to smoke with three lit cigarettes in my mouth.

[ChadTower]

It's like me telling someone not to smoke with three lit cigarettes in my mouth.

Well, the US demanding an apology is a bit dumb, except that it is American soldiers put at graver risk of injury or death.

It's not exactly Newsweek's responsibility that some people outside of their control are being violent... but it IS their responsibility to adhere to some basic ethics of their industry.  Saying that Newsweek is not accountable simply because other organizations are doing bad things doesn't do much more than rationalize.

[Dartful Dodger]

The biggest issue I have is who is demanding Newsweek apologize.

Who is demanding an apology from Newsweek?

[jbox]

jbox has just spouted

I think plenty of people would agree with you I am full of pipe dreams, am dripping with nonsense, and am a no good sprinkler of socialist nonsense. I mean, I'm constantly plumbing the depths of my relationships with the people around me, but only seem to clog up topics by endlessly pumping them with vague ramblings that merely baffle people, damp down the discussion and drain people of any interest in my point of view. Maybe I'd better go back to watching the tube before I tank another perfectly reasonable thread? 

Damn, anyone know how to fit chamfer into a sentance?

[fredster]

Saint,

That was a twist on the "Bush Lied" slogan.

It's the "equivilent outrage" thingie that really doesn't exist.

[Santoro]

Koran desecrations involving the use of toilets had been reported *before* Newsweek's article. Multiple times.

Bringing this back to topic, pretend for a second that this true.

[ChadTower]

No, we riot over sports championships.   

The main cause of the riots is that they can dish it out but can't take it.  They can burn our leaders in effigy, burn American flags, do whatever they want, but if one person somewhere in US space may have dropped their book in a toilet men must die.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

MrC, I cleaned up your phrasing a bit to make it truthful. 

If you were really clever you'd come up with your own posts instead of offering up the sloppy second re-writes you're left with. All it does is confuse the issue, making people think I've said things I have not, all while your point remains buried in a steaming pile of your own sanctamonious bull dung.

They pointed out something America should have known about how radical middle eastern folks long ago.

More of your disgusting, "She shouldn't have worn that dress" blame-the-victim mentality. For you, their anger over the desecration of the Koran and the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, somehow trumps everything else that is wrong about this Newsweek article and the ensuing aftermath. Interesting.


mrC

[ChadTower]

More of your disgusting, "She shouldn't have worn that dress" blame-the-victim mentality. For you, their anger over the desecration of the Koran and the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, somehow trumps everything else that is wrong about this Newsweek article and the ensuing aftermath. Interesting.

Actually, you're the one rationalizing.  You're rationalizing rioting and fatalities by saying they were forced to do it because of supposed desecration of that book.  That is crap and we all know it.  Sure, desecrating any holy book is a bad thing, but how does that cause a mob of people to murder?  Are these people not responsible for their actions?

Newsweek didn't cause those riots, and desecrating their holy book didn't cause those riots.  The rioters caused those riots and the rioters are the only ones responsible for those riots.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Koran desecrations involving the use of toilets had been reported *before* Newsweek's article. Multiple times.

Bringing this back to topic, pretend for a second that this true.

[ChadTower]

...and based on a lot of the comments in this thread and from what I hearing in the media (re: Newsweek "scandal"), there seems to be a real lack of understanding in this country (U.S.) of the cultural differences between Western and Middle Eastern cultures on a socio-economic scale.

It's more like a lack of giving a crap.  Pull the plug, bring the troops home, and let these people riot themselves silly so long as they do it within their own borders.

I don't see what the economic differences mean in this context, other than that socio-economic is a nice sounding word to use.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You're rationalizing rioting and fatalities by saying they were forced to do it because of supposed desecration of that book.

No. I am not. I am attempting to "defuse" the rationalization behind the "Newsweek caused the riots" meme. Nothing more. To do so, I naturally have to address what I believe to be the catalyst for the riots (desecration of the Koran) and the root causes that have led up to culmination of this violent display of civil unrest (ie: economy, American foreign policy, sanctioned torture, etc.)

but how does that cause a mob of people to murder?

It doesn't. The rioters were shot by police, from what I understand.

Newsweek didn't cause those riots, and desecrating their holy book didn't cause those riots.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

It's more like a lack of giving a crap.

[Santoro]

Just because Americans are generally either too fat, too lazy, and/or too self-centered to actually be bothered getting angry

God you are presumptuous.

[fredster]

naturally have to address what I believe to be the catalyst for the riots (desecration of the Koran) and the root causes that have led up to culmination of this violent display of civil unrest (ie: economy, American foreign policy, sanctioned torture, etc.)

**groan***

I don't think Newsweek did it on purpose.

[ChadTower]

Crime is criminal... doesn't matter who they are pissed off at, crime is a criminal act and the criminal is the responsible party.

I don't discount it as Arab Rage, I discount it as dumbass rage.  It has nothing to do with being Arab, there are dumbasses everywhere.

[fredster]

Myself, I'd rather heed it as a warning of possible unrest to come and try to come to some understanding of how it may effect our country's interests abroad and at home.

Kind of like when they danced in the streets on 9/11.  Bet they partied all night.

[Dartful Dodger]

Kind of like when they danced in the streets on 9/11.

[ChadTower]

Thanks for reminding us.

[DrewKaree]

They pointed out something America should have known about how radical middle eastern folks long ago.

More of your disgusting, "She shouldn't have worn that dress" blame-the-victim mentality. For you, their anger over the desecration of the Koran and the abuse of prisoners at Gitmo, somehow trumps everything else that is wrong about this Newsweek article and the ensuing aftermath. Interesting.


mrC

Have you lost your mind?  Are you seriously reading these things, or just delving in thinking anyone who doesn't adhere to your ideology has to be wrong, and then try to find a way to prove it?

RADICAL middle eastern folks.  Seriously, I think you look for crap to argue about when you can't figure out whether someone's got a point you might agree with. 

The people getting nuts and KILLING people are anything BUT representative of the general populace.  The people inciting riots and thinking killing folks is ok are RADICALS.

Lemme paint the picture for you sparky, cuz you seem to be under some notion that I'm blaming all those who believe their book to be sacred.  The people interested in giving America a beat-down most definitely would head to these gatherings to whip the crowd into a frenzy, perhaps after everyone's all nuts and not thinking straight, they pop a few of the "you're not holy ENOUGH" people.  It accomplishes two things.  One, it gets rid of one of those infidels who pretend to be as holy as they are.  Two, it's guaranteed to bring MORE attention to something that may or may not be true, and to cause even more problems for America, perhaps hastening their leaving.

I don't think Newsweek was right to spit this story out, as even YOU should be able to figure out it would only cause these reactions, but the problem doesn't lie with Newsweek, it lies with the....follow this now, so you don't get lost again.....RADICAL people who wish to regain power and deal America another blow.

Try and follow along, it'll make it easier on the rest of the class

[DrewKaree]

Alright, you guys asked for it....I got a peek at the next cover of Newsweek.