Joystick Grommet (Real Identity)

[PoDunkMoFo]

Hello,

I have been doing some preliminary research on joystick grommets.  I remember reading a post where it was alluded to that this was not the intended function of this part.  However the person posting did not say what the original intention of possible source for this part would be.

So far I believe that these are actually vibration dampeners used in aircraft and other areas.

Check this link http://www.lord.com/Default.aspx?tabid=876

I have not yet found a supplier of pricing, I just started looking into this, but I think it is possible that we may be able to find a cheaper source for replacements.

If I'm on the wrong track maybe someone out there knows and is willing to reveal a source for these parts.

[HaRuMaN]

I checked that link... this is a very interesting idea...  BYO joystick.  hmm...

[RayB]

The square one looks very close to the Wico grommets, but that depends on the actual size of it. I see also you can get them with different load ratings, so I'd be interested to know which lod rating a typical joystick requires.....

Maybe you can get samples from them?

[markrvp]

There should be a TON OF INTEREST in this, so please keep us updated.  I've got 3 or 4 Wicos that could use new grommets.

[Flinkly]

if someone had a relatively new one, they could send it into one of their distributors and see if they could match it up with an existing one.  looks cool to find a way to replace parts.  too bad i don't need any. 

another thing would be to look into the grommet for a 49-way joystick.  is this the same?

[Crazy Cooter]

I have been doing some preliminary research on joystick grommets.

[markrvp]

1up is getting these somewhere as he said in his Tron Handle thread that the 49-ways he is selling will have a heavier duty grommet (plateform). 

1up - will you share the source or offer these for sale?

[spidermonkey]

The correct name for these "grommets" are "plateforms" which are used for many applications other then joysticks. Lord Manufacturing was the primary supplier for Wico's leafswitch joysticks as well as Midway's Pac-man style sticks and the "Tron style" family of trigger sticks. I looked into this a while back and got frusterated with trying to find a distributer because Lord Manufacturing wouldn't sell to me directly. If I remember correctly I found that the square plateforms used for Pac-man style sticks and the somewhat diamond shaped plateforms (not to be confused with restrictors) used for Tron style sticks are still made however the square plateforms used on Wico sticks are no longer made. The plateform for a Wico leafswitch stick and the Midway Pac stick are basically the same unit with the same bolt pattern

[Kremmit]

Maybe there's a version with a hole larger than the original Wico grommets.  Then all we'd need was a sleeve of the correct thickness.

[JODY]

I found a few manufacturers about a month ago for platform vibration dampeners and was looking into it.  Spent some time trying to find one the right size.  Didn't find one, but didn't do a real thorough job.  The closest was the correct size except the hole through the center was too small.  Also there were options for how stiff they would be.  Didn't have an idea what the Wico specs were.

[PoDunkMoFo]

Hey All,

Looks like two possible manufacturers so far. Lord & Corey.  I have two grommets in front of me one from a wico leaf & one from a tron stick.  I will work up some cad drawings with measurements to fax to them in the next couple of days if anyone has a grommet from another stick they want me to check get me some measurements.  You can look on there catalog and see what the important specs are.  Mostly hole diam, center to center mounting holes, and height above plate on both sides.

I will keep you guys up to date.

I was hoping that someone who already had the part numbers and the name of a source would come forward but I guess it is not to be.

[Kremmit]

If anybody had a source, they'd be for sale in B/S/T, I would think.

[PoDunkMoFo]

OK,

I think these are the important dimensions.  I don't think I is critical but I think U is pretty important.

I am getting ready to fax the specs to a couple of places on a wico leaf and the tron grommets, we will see what they have that may match.

[markrvp]

Thank you for doing this.

[Kremmit]

There's some flex available in some of those measurements.

We can handle "U" measurements that are too small by adding washers.  We can handle "D" measurements that are too large by adding a sleeve around the joystick shaft. 

That should help open up the possibilities a little bit.

[spidermonkey]

Ok,well here are the original Midway part numbers for the plateform/grommets used on Tron & Pac-Man. Keep in mind that these are Midway numbers,not Lord Manufacturing numbers but since Lord was the original manufacturer then they may recognize or have records of these numbers having delt with Midway for quite a few years.

Tron bushing-Midway part# 0628-00905-0000

Pac-Man bushing-Midway part# 0932-00902-0000

And here's Atari's part# for a typical Wico plateform/grommet used in a Wico leafswitch joystick from the game "Dig-Dug".
Atari part# 99-080031 Again,this is Atari's part# which is most likely different from the actual Wico or Lord

[RandyT]

There is also something else that isn't being taken into consideration aside from mechanical fit.  There are load ratings on these devices that will dictate the resistance.  Much of the time, the mechanical properties (shaft size, plate size, etc) dictate the formulation of the rubber.  In other words, a vibration mount that is designed for a .375" shaft, would probably be overkill to support a 15lb load, but that combination may be what is required to give you the proper feel for the joystick.

It's entirely probable that WICO had a custom batch of these made with exactly the specs they wanted.  Even the rubber "grommets" for the Happ 49-ways are made special, with a .313" shaft diameter.

Every stock unit I have ever seen is either .257" or .391", pretty much meaning that a drill will be your best option.  Unless you want to to have a thousand dollars worth of vibration mounts on your shelf for who knows how long .

BTW, this is also most likely the reason that the "knock-offs" reportedly have such a sloppy fit.  If the shafts are modeled after the original WICO shafts (mine measures .369") and they are using the commonly available .391" mounts, then there is .022" slop, which doesn't sound like much, but in an application like this, it's tantamount to a "rat tail in a rain barrel".

RandyT

[PoDunkMoFo]

If WICO had to have the part of the joystick that fits into the mount made, pretty sure there are no alternate uses for balltop handles, wouldn't it be more likely that they had that part made to fit an off the shelf plateform?

It would seem less likely that they would make the handles a size that would require a custom order grommet.

Am I way off on this?

I don't think drilling would be a major undertaking.  Again I could be wrong.

[RandyT]

If WICO had to have the part of the joystick that fits into the mount made, pretty sure there are no alternate uses for balltop handles, wouldn't it be more likely that they had that part made to fit an off the shelf plateform?

It would seem less likely that they would make the handles a size that would require a custom order grommet.

Am I way off on this?

Maybe.  See the part above about large shaft diameters and rubber formulations.  If WICO wanted a beefy stick, but soft rubber, a custom run would have been required anyway as demand for this is pretty unlikely in the "vibration control" market.  As I said, the larger the shaft, the tougher the rubber...usually.

I don't think drilling would be a major undertaking.  Again I could be wrong.

I have some .257" ones here.  I'll give it a shot in a  day or so to see how it goes.  Drilling out a metal bushing that is encapsulated in a chunk of rubber is something I haven't tried yet.  But I don't expect it to be as straight forward as just putting a piece of metal in a vice.

RandyT

[PoDunkMoFo]

Well my thinking on the off the shelf thing is this.

If I understand these mounts they are meant to dampen vibration and the deflection figures listed in the specs are forces perpendicular to the mount.  Meaning, at least I think, is that these things were never meant to have force applied in the manner of a joystick.  That is why I think that someone somewhere went "Hey that'll work".


Randy,

On the drilling thing I was thinking it might be worthwhile to take the time to make some sort of jig to hold the plate in place ( A couple of dowel pins on he diagonals).  Just a thought.  Let us know how it works out.

[PoDunkMoFo]

Hey all,

Just saw this on e-bay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6177892220&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

He says new not old stock.  He says correct hole diam.

He got em' somewhere.

[quarterback]

Hey all,

Just saw this on e-bay 6177892220   

Fixed link

[Stormy151]

Ah, yes.  "Lord mounts" we used to call them.  I don't know why I didn't think of these.

Used to see these all the time in military aircraft.  Avionics racks are mounted to them a lot of times.   Some of them were fairly "loose", as I remember, but others were very stiff.

Might check a military surplus for these, especially any that sell old avionics.  DRMO would probably be your best bet.

As to the Ms Pac grommet on ebay- I wonder if the guy finds a stock mount then drills the center hole out to the correct diameter?

[RandyT]

If I understand these mounts they are meant to dampen vibration and the deflection figures listed in the specs are forces perpendicular to the mount. Meaning, at least I think, is that these things were never meant to have force applied in the manner of a joystick. That is why I think that someone somewhere went "Hey that'll work".

They also usually have a radial load spec, for side to side movement.  But yes, the twisting action is probably way outside of what was expected  for these when they were designed.

He says new not old stock.  He says correct hole diam.

He got em' somewhere.

That center hole looks too small to be a WICO grommet.  I recall seeing someone post that the original Pac sticks had a .250" minor diameter.  Maybe that is what this one is and if so, I have 10 of them on my shelf.

If drilling these works out, I'll stock a few of these and put them on the store.  They'll be cheaper than this guy on eBay, that's for sure.

BTW, if anyone has a set of calipers and a WICO shaft, please measure it and post the dimensions.  I'd like to get a feel for the tolerances on these when they made them.  Mine was .006" under the 3/8" nominal.  Is anyone else's over nominal? 

Thanks,
RandyT

[RayB]

I dunno about that auction... It lists Galaga, but from what I remember of my Galaga joy, it has NO grommet. It springs back into place due to two metal "leafs"...

[Samstag]

BTW, if anyone has a set of calipers and a WICO shaft, please measure it and post the dimensions.

[RandyT]

I've got three NOS 4-ways that measure .371, .371, and .372. All bought at the same time from Nicade on Ebay.

Excellent.  Just what I was looking for.  Thank You,

Here's an update:

They can be drilled out, but I would be surprised if someone were able to do it properly with just their home drill press. 

I just destroyed 2 of them.  Once the wall gets too thin, all of the heat created from the drilling transfers right to the thermoset rubber and guess what happens when the rubber gets hot 

Anyway, I haven't given up, but it'll take a little more experimentation.  I have an idea, but I'll need to make a special jig on the CNC and that will take a little time.

RandyT

[PoDunkMoFo]

OK All,

Just talked to an application engineer at Lord.

As feared and speculated by randy the hole diams' we are looking for are not
available.  So either it was a custom order part or they are just not made anymore.

I gave the part number to the guy I talked to and he is going to check with some of the guys that have been there awhile and see what he comes up with.



Randy,

How bout if shafts were made, or sleeves for existing shafts, to fit those stock hole sizes.  Kinda like a rebuilt kit including handle.  Just a thought I know in the end costs must be justified and demand must exist before there can be supply.

Or maybe the machining the whole to match is the best solution.


I will keep everyone posted if I hear anything more.

[Avery]

They can be drilled out, but I would be surprised if someone were able to do it properly with just their home drill press.

[RandyT]

If you can find a piece of thin steel tubing of about the right diameter (I've seen this kind of stuff at model train and art supply places) try putting a knife edge on one end and use it like a tube drill.  That's, more or less, how rubber stoppers are drilled.

Thanks for the suggestion, but we need to go through steel encapsulated in the rubber, not just the rubber part.

RandyT

[Stormy151]

Is it possible to clamp the steel insert so that it can be drilled without "twisting" the rubber?  A metal clamp of some type may also act as a sort of heat sink...

Just an idea.

[Tailgunner]

Interesting thread. I for one would have no problem believing Wico had their plateforms made to their specs, when you're talking about ordering several thousand pieces, companies are more than willing to work with you on filling a preticular need.


As far as drilling these alternates out, the best I can think of would be to make a jig up to mount them in a metal lathe. It'd be a hollow round or hex shaped piece with the mounting screw holes drilled into it. the plate form would be screwed into place and the jig would then be chucked up to drill out the metal insert. Since heat is a problem you'd need to keep a coolant flow on the drill bit, but by stepping up the hole size and drilling slowly you could probably manage on a dry lathe.

[PoDunkMoFo]

UPDATE

OK it is confirmed and I have part numbers.  A certain arcade company has purchased these in the last two years in large quantities (thousands) and they purchased stock sizes.  The two units they purchased matched the different size plates in joystics so they must be drilling them out.

I don't know if they should have given me that info so let's just say the company was somewhere between nearway and farway.

The part numbers were150P-18 and 200P-45.  Again I repeat they did not order custom parts although I don't know why at those quantities.


I hope you have some luck with the machining Randy.  At least we have some information which will get us the right load rating on the parts.

[RandyT]

UPDATE

OK it is confirmed and I have part numbers.  A certain arcade company has purchased these in the last two years in large quantities (thousands) and they purchased stock sizes.  The two units they purchased matched the different size plates in joystics so they must be drilling them out.

I don't know if they should have given me that info so let's just say the company was somewhere between nearway and farway.

Hehe.  I must be getting slow.  That took me a minute.....

Keep in mind that drilling to those specs is easy.  I opened them up enough on the first pass to accomodate that company's sticks with no problem.

I hope you have some luck with the machining Randy.  At least we have some information which will get us the right load rating on the parts.

Thanks for getting the extra info and confirming the speculations.  I still think it's doable, but special jigging and coolant flooding will be in order.

BTW, there is virtually no way to clamp onto the metal part of these, so the fixture has to take that into account (which is why I haven't gotten around to building it yet.)  I will try to have at it again this weekend.

RandyT

[brandon]

this might not work but... What if you take a drill bit that's the size you want to go to and turn the tip down on a lathe to match the smaller size.

[whammoed]

this might not work but... What if you take a drill bit that's the size you want to go to and turn the tip down on a lathe to match the smaller size.

[Avery]

Thanks for the suggestion, but we need to go through steel encapsulated in the rubber, not just the rubber part.

I see where my misunderstanding came from now.  Oooops.  <Looks Sheepish>

So, as you actually have some of these in your hand, is it possible you could push the insert out (say using a block with a hole in it to let the insert pass through, but support the rubber) and then put your own insert in there?

Also, I just looked and Lord has a distributor about 5 miles from where I work (give me convienence or give me death).  If I want to run out and get a couple of these things, how much should I expect to be paying?

[brandon]

this might not work but... What if you take a drill bit that's the size you want to go to and turn the tip down on a lathe to match the smaller size.

[Kremmit]

I don't know if they should have given me that info so let's just say the company was somewhere between nearway and farway.

I wasn't aware they were even still making their own sticks.  I thought all their designs that were still in production had been licensed out to Happ?

[PoDunkMoFo]

is it possible you could push the insert out (say using a block with a hole in it to let the insert pass through, but support the rubber) and then put your own insert in there?

The metal insert is molded into the rubber removing it would ruin the part.

See the picture in the e-bay link above.