OT - Computer hardware problems, Mouse or USB and Video.

[Tiger-Heli]

Okay, we have three desktops in the house and a laptop.

All desktops are running 98SE.

Desktop 1 uses a MSI VIA KT133A mobo and a Duron 650 processor.  It has worked virtually flawlessly (one HD death) since installation.

Desktop 2 is my computer.  It uses a refurbed Shuttle AK38N (Via KT333 mobo), 512M ram Barton XP2600, Radeon 128M 9200 video.  Oddly, the inland optical PS/2 mouse with scroll wheel that works fine (still) in desktop 1, locks up on it, as does any PS/2 scroll-wheel mouse, so I got a USB mouse for it.  Other than that, it has had no major problems.

Desktop 3 has all the demons - It started with the same type MSI board as desktop one, which blew capacitors to be replaced with an EPOX and then another refurbished and a new AK38N board.  (and about 3 graphics cards and a few power supplies and CPU's).  It is running 128M ram and a Duron 1.1 Ghz CPU.  It didn't like PS/2 mice either, so I got a Belkin Aerocruiser USB mouse for it.  I tried to swap this for an HP USB wheel mouse, but that locked up with it, so I moved it to my machine (works perfectly on it), and put the aerocruiser back in.  Currently it is running an Albatron 128M FX5200 card which also worked flawlessly in my computer.  By the way, it is mainly just used for scanning and saving images.

The computer has the following problems:  The video doesn't work about half the time on a cold boot on desktop 3.  It will start with no video, then half the time the re-boot will have video.   Sometimes, if it doesn't have video on 2 or 3 boots, I can open the case and move the video card (not really unseat or reseat) and get the video to work.

It also is having problems lately when if you install a thumbdrive and try to move files onto it, the mouse will lock up in Windows explorer.  Unplugging the mouse and plugging it in does not help.  I "borrowed" the USB mouse from the laptop and plugged it in and it worked.  Then uninstalled all the HID's and let windoze re-detect them and both mice were working, but it again locked up when moving files (the keyboard keys still work, only the mouse appears frozen.).

I have a new Soyo mini-ATX VIA KM400 board that I could replace it with and am seriously considering this, but wanted to see if anyone could recommend anything else to fix it first.

TIA!!!

[testicle187]

Is your video card on desktop 3 PCI or AGP?  If it is PCI try it in an entirely different slot.  If it is AGP make sure the voltage is correct as some older boards won't work correctly with newer AGP cards.

Also on your USB issues are you using your front USB connections or the ones on your motherboard?  Try changing to the ones straight off your motherboard.  It also sounds like you have conflicts in your system as well.  Check Device Manager and make sure there are no "!"s by any of your devices.  Also make sure you have your USB Drivers, for your thumb drive, that should have came with it installed on your computer.

I can almost promise switching to Windows XP would solve all your problems immediately as well.  Hope something I mentioned helps a little.

[2600]

Testicle makes some good points.   Your problems could just be for a variety of reasons.

Off hand I want to say Power issues, but if I was debugging this this is what I would want to know

Power Supply Ratings?
More information on all the Hardware in the boxes
Using a USB HUB?
USB1.1 or USB2
Tried a fresh install of the OS?
Delete the entire USB tree not just the HID.

If it was just USB it wouldn't be so bad, but the ps2 mouse thing is the wrench.

[testicle187]

Yeah that PS/2 problem is really weird.  I would almost try cleaning the ps2 port and ps2 mouse connector.  One other thing actually, the ps2 mice you are using are they USB mice with an adaptor connected to them?

Also make sure you download the latest firmware and drivers for your motherboard, might help some problems.

[Tiger-Heli]

Is your video card on desktop 3 PCI or AGP?  If it is PCI try it in an entirely different slot.  If it is AGP make sure the voltage is correct as some older boards won't work correctly with newer AGP cards.

It's AGP.  I think the voltage should be okay - It's an Nvidia FX5200 and a KT333 board.  For that matter, I know I had that card in system 2 and never had problems.  And the video works fine once it comes up, it just doesn't initialize on a cold boot sometimes.

Also on your USB issues are you using your front USB connections or the ones on your motherboard?

All the USB ports (4) are in use.  The 2.0 hub, the printer (Canon I760 ?) and the thumbdrive are plugged into backshell USB port 1.  The mouse is plugged into backshell USB port 2.  The APC Back UPS 325 (?) is plugged into motherboard header USB port 3 and something (Visioneer Scanner?) is plugged into motherboard header USB port 4.

Try changing to the ones straight off your motherboard.  It also sounds like you have conflicts in your system as well.  Check Device Manager and make sure there are no "!"s by any of your devices.

I don't remember any, but I'll check again.

Also make sure you have your USB Drivers, for your thumb drive, that should have came with it installed on your computer.

Installed those yesterday.

I can almost promise switching to Windows XP would solve all your problems immediately as well.  Hope something I mentioned helps a little.

I thought of that.  It's an option.  $75 or so to upgrade Desktop 3 to XP wouldn't be too bad, but then I would want to upgrade 1 and 2, and $225 for a little (okay a lot) better stability is a bit steep.

Will XP run okay on a Duron 1.1 G with only 128 M of RAM?

[Tiger-Heli]

Testicle makes some good points.   Your problems could just be for a variety of reasons.
Off hand I want to say Power issues, but if I was debugging this this is what I would want to know
Power Supply Ratings?

Power Supply is either a 300W or 350W Fortron/Sparkle Power unit.  It's the same type in Desktop 2 which should be a more power hungy system, I would think.

More information on all the Hardware in the boxes

Desktop 3 has 128M PC2700 (?) DDR bought from a local shop (not name brand).
52X CD-ROM
48X16X48 CD-RW
20 Gb Western Digital HD (about 75% full) Ran Norton Windoctor and Speed Disk yesterday and still had problems.
Albatron 128M FX5200 AGP video
V92 PCI Winmodem (Best Data, I think).

Using a USB HUB?

Yes - non-powered - although the printer was turned off but connected.

USB1.1 or USB2

2.0 on board and on hub, not sure what thumb drive needs, or if it cares.

Tried a fresh install of the OS?

It's fairly recent, but not within the last month or so.

Delete the entire USB tree not just the HID.

Okay, I can try that - From device Manager?

If it was just USB it wouldn't be so bad, but the ps2 mouse thing is the wrench.

More below. . .

[Tiger-Heli]

Yeah that PS/2 problem is really weird.  I would almost try cleaning the ps2 port and ps2 mouse connector.

The PS/2 mouse thing is the only really consistent problem between the two boards.  Happened on all the AK38 boards with a PS/2 wheel mouse.  Two button mice are fine.  USB wheel mice are fine in Desktop 2, but flakey in Desktop 3.  But I like the scroll wheel.

One other thing actually, the ps2 mice you are using are they USB mice with an adaptor connected to them?

Not using PS/2 mice at the moment, and not worried about it if I can keep the USB mice from locking up.  The previous ones were dedicated PS/2 mice and several different brands and had problems on both Desktop 2 and Desktop 3.  And Desktop 1 and my work PC have been happy with them . . .

Also make sure you download the latest firmware and drivers for your motherboard, might help some problems.

Firmware and drivers I think are the latest, not sure about the 4-in-1's . . .

[testicle187]

You should be able to buy one copy of Windows XP and use it on all your home computers with their license agreement (I think).  It should run okay on The Duron 1.1 with 128 meg ram if you don't open hardly any programs or use up many resources, 256 would really help.  Best Buy has 256 PC2700 PNY Technology brand for 19.99 right now too

Another idea I had was that USB is basically sharing 1 or 2 IRQ Channels with multiple devices and maybe Windows isn't doing too good of a job at managing them.  Try unplugging all USB connections but the thumb drive and see if there is any difference.  (Well, I guess you need your mouse too.)

On the video card you could try going into the bios settings when you boot your computer and making sure the Primary Display adaptor is AGP. 

[Tiger-Heli]

You should be able to buy one copy of Windows XP and use it on all your home computers with their license agreement (I think).

Not legally - I mean I think it will work as long as I don't try to call MicroSoft and get a new activation code for it too often, which XP sometimes requires.  Here's what I see the options for using XP are -

BTW, I have an HP laptop running XP Home that came with a full install disk with key, but I am using it on the laptop.

I think I can install that version of XP on the desktop with the same key and get an activation code, but I am not sure what would happen if the computer were put on-line.

A search on price-watch shows 9 Software selling an installation CD (basically a different key) for $10, which I think I could use with the HP CD, I already have.  EDIT - Apparently this is not a software key.  Microsoft apparently cracked down on vendors selling software keys without licenses.  So this one isn't an option.

Glob2000 is selling the same type of (HP-even) full version CD that I already have for $60, which would probably be legal.

Upgrade versions (from 98) go for $70 to $80.

Or NewEgg has a full retail OEM version (no tech support, no biggie) for $91.

I am entitled to the upgrade version, but I'm using that with 98SE (98 and then the SE upgrade) and for $10, I would rather get a full install.  (I don't want to have to load 98 on the machine and then XP if I wanted to start over).

Also, I would prefer to stay with FAT32 rather than NTFS as this can be read by KNOPPIX and doesn't require a HD backup and reformat.

Thoughts?

Best Buy has 256 PC2700 PNY Technology brand for 19.99 right now too

I didn't see that, but memory is cheap on pricewatch. . .

Another idea I had was that USB is basically sharing 1 or 2 IRQ Channels with multiple devices and maybe Windows isn't doing too good of a job at managing them.  Try unplugging all USB connections but the thumb drive and see if there is any difference.  (Well, I guess you need your mouse too.)

I disconnected the scanner - it was slightly more stable but still locked up. . .

I also removed all the USB components in device manager and let Windows re-load them - no improvement.

On the video card you could try going into the bios settings when you boot your computer and making sure the Primary Display adaptor is AGP. 

I'll check that . . .

At this point, I can change the motherboard, but that's a hassle (free though) and may not fix the problem.  Or I can look into putting XP on the machine, but that's somewhat expensive and might not help if it's a hardware problem.

Thoughts?

[daywane]

have you flashed your BIOS?
can 98 se use usb2.0?
not sure your disk from your laptop will work.
mine would not. That type of PC only.

[Tiger-Heli]

have you flashed your BIOS?

Yes

can 98 se use usb2.0?

It should with the proper drivers from the motherboard (which I installed)

not sure your disk from your laptop will work.
mine would not. That type of PC only.

I think it will, in fact I think it's the same as this http://www.store.yahoo.com/glob2000/frshwixphoed1.html (note that that one says it is an HP also).  But it might be good to find that out before spending money on the installation key code.

[Bloinkxp]

Tiger-Heli,
I think you can safely point your finger at Win98SE.  It's USB support has never been stellar and newer devices do not work well.  Still, you do have some recourse before plopping WINXP on your machine.  Make sure that DOS USB is enabled on the BIOS of you motherboards?  That helps.  Also, go find the "unofficial WIN98 SP2" from fileforum.  I have used this in a corporate setting and been please with it's better support.
http://fileforum.betanews.com/detail/Unofficial_Windows_98_SE_Service_Pack/1083536650/1

Also, download a linuxlive CD like Knoppix.  See if everything works.  That will validate the hardware.

Last thought,  if XP is too steep get W2K, it is usually cheap by $20 - $30.

-d

[Tiger-Heli]

Also, go find the "unofficial WIN98 SP2" from fileforum.

Good Tip.  I loaded an earlier version of this on Desktop 2, maybe that explains why it has less of the problems.

Also, download a linuxlive CD like Knoppix.  See if everything works.  That will validate the hardware.

Got one of those - Will try it out . . .

Last thought,  if XP is too steep get W2K, it is usually cheap by $20 - $30.

Nah, I like XP, just not what they charge for it, but I'll try those tips first.

BTW, in looking at the 98SE SP site, I stumbled across 982ME and found this page http://www.mdgx.com/98-5.htm#KRM9S with 98SE USB troubleshooting toward the bottom.

I will try these tips as well.

One thing it recommends is setting PNP OS to NO in the BIOS.  This seems odd, but also seems to be recommended by this page:  http://www.adriansrojakpot.com/Speed_Demonz/BIOS_Guide/BIOS_Guide_04a.htm

[Tiger-Heli]

Status Update -
The BIOS was set to boot first from PCI instead of AGP. (on both Desktop 2 and 3).  I changed it on both computers.

I also installed the unofficial SE SP2 on both machines (need to do Desktop 1 as well) and made the recommend BIOS changes for USB support from the link above.

One thing I noticed but didn't fix yet, I am using the two rear USB ports and one pair of Motherboard headers, leaving the other pair disconnected - but I have "All USB ports enabled" in the BIOS.  I need to change this to "1 and 2 only", I think.

[2600]

The knoppix CD was a great idea.  As the PS/2 thing is still bugging me.  Really interested in how it works out for you.

From memory the PNP OS should only be enabled for OS/2.  And you should be able to leave all your USB ports enabled.

[Tiger-Heli]

The knoppix CD was a great idea.  As the PS/2 thing is still bugging me.  Really interested in how it works out for you.

I know.  I ran out of time (forgot) to test it out.

From memory the PNP OS should only be enabled for OS/2.

Actually, I thought the OS/2 setting was "OS Select for DRAM>64MB", and that PNP OS should be enabled for 98 and up, but a lot of sites seem to recommend disabling it, so I did.

And you should be able to leave all your USB ports enabled.

You might have misunderstood what I was saying.  I am only using 4 of the 6 ports.  So I think if I disable one pair of them, it should free up an IRQ that might otherwise be causing some conflicts.  I can always re-enable them if I add more ports later.

[2600]

Actually, I thought the OS/2 setting was "OS Select for DRAM>64MB", and that PNP OS should be enabled for 98 and up, but a lot of sites seem to recommend disabling it, so I did.

Like I said it was from memory, in any case you did the right thing.

You might have misunderstood what I was saying.  I am only using 4 of the 6 ports.  So I think if I disable one pair of them, it should free up an IRQ that might otherwise be causing some conflicts.  I can always re-enable them if I add more ports later.

I understood what you are doing, but they should all share the same IRQ, so it's not "really" doing anything.

Also, had to reread the thread because I hadn't had enough time to really get into it, but If it you didn't have the ps/2 problem I would go about troubleshooting USB.

In which, I would:
A: Try the system without the USB hub as that is the would be the most likely source of problems for a number of reasons.
B: If that didn't work, I would try the mouse on USB port 3 or 4.

[Bloinkxp]

Most sites are, infact, incorrect on OS PNP setup now. 

Early on PNP AWARE OS bios setting was disabled because Mobo manufactures and Win95/98 has compatibility issues.  If you disable this then be prepared to copy the settings in the BIOS and Audit you System Settings.  Only then can you guarantee you are setup correctly.

Keep us updated.

[Tiger-Heli]

So should PNP OS be enabled or disabled???

The knoppix CD was a great idea.

BTW, I looked at the Knoppix FAQ and it looks like it will read NTFS, but not write to it.

Dumb question, but what should I do with the Knoppix CD after I boot the PC into it.  The lockups don't happen immediately with Windows, so I'm not sure that I would notice them with Knoppix.

BTW, I have used Knoppix on Desktop 2 and found two great uses for it

First - A friends HD died, don't think it was a virus, but Windows couldn't read it consistently -  I was able to connect his HD to the PC and read it in Knoppix and copy the data to a CD for him so he didn't lose the drive data.  (Next time I will disconnect my HD as somewhere in all this it messed up my Windows drive).

Second - After my Windows was corrupted, I wanted to re-install Windows clean, but I didn't want to re-format the whole drive (sloppy backups), and I didn't want to lose some of the Windows directory files.  And Win98 won't let you delete the Windows directrory.  I was able to boot to Knoppix and change the Windows folder to "Windows_Old_Backup" and then re-install 98 to C:\Windows.

[Tiger-Heli]

Bump!

"So should PNP OS be enabled or disabled???" I set it to disabled - like the websites said.  2600 said I did the right thing, but Bloinkxp said most websites have it incorrectly.  Didn't seem to make much difference.

Also, what should I see with the Knoppix CD.  The PS/2 wheel mouse problem was hit or miss (would lock-up after 30 seconds to several hours of use).  I don't plan to spend several hours in Knoppix.

Thoughts?

[daywane]

how did you mess up window on hard drive with knopix cd?
also did your modem work with knopix? or did you try it?
I only ask becouse I want a modem knopix sees.

[Hoopz]

"So should PNP OS be enabled or disabled???" I set it to disabled - like the websites said.  2600 said I did the right thing, but Bloinkxp said most websites have it incorrectly.  Didn't seem to make much difference.

It probably wont affect it much either way as you found out.

I found this to explain the differences.

"setting the PNP OS Installed feature to No allows the BIOS to configure all devices under the assumption that the operating system cannot do so. Therefore, all hardware settings are fixed by the BIOS at boot up and will not be changed by the operating system.

On the other hand, if you set the feature to Yes, the BIOS will only configure critical devices that are required to boot up the system. The other devices are then configured by the operating system. This allows the operating system some flexibility in shuffling system resources like IRQs and IO ports to avoid conflicts. It also gives you some degree of freedom when you want to manually assign system resources."