Staining, Sanding and Sealing.

[javeryh]

I'm going to stain my birch cocktail cab a shade of blue.  I think it will look sweet with the black top/artwork.  Plyus, a "wood" colored stain woon't match anything in the TV room where I plan to put it.  I've never really stained anything before to get a "furniture finish" and I want to be sure I know what I'm doing before I attempt it.   

My plan is to put on several light coats of stain and sand in between each coat and then seal it with several light coats of poly.  The goal is to be able to have that smoth glass-like finish and to not have to worry about spilling my beer on it.  I've heard that finishing a piece of furniture takes some time - I don't mind - I just want to get it right. 

Some questions:

1.  Is there a recommended brand/type of stain and poly for this project?
2.  How many coats for the stain and the poly is typical?
3.  What type of grit should the sandpaper be for sanding in between coats?
4.  Should I invest in an orbital sander or is doing it by hand sufficient?
5.  Any other tips?

THANKS!

[Wade]

I have never done super high gloss, "perfect" style finishes on wood, but I have stained a lot of furniture and other household items, and use the poly finishes, so I can offer a little advice.

1. I have used Minwax Polycrylic (water based) and their regular Poly.  I love the Polycrylic because it dries so fast and makes a real nice finish.  I usually use Satin or another low-gloss finish.  The regular Poly I have only used once, because it took SO LONG to dry (days).

2. Typically only one coat of stain is applied, or another 2 or 3 but only if needed to get the color dark enough. (I'm usually trying to match a color to another piece of furniture, or our hardwood floors).

For the Poly, I usually apply several coats, however many are needed to get the finish right.  Let it dry, and sand between each coat, and then don't sand after the final coat.  Apply the poly pretty lightly.

3.  Light.  For any finish type work, I wouldnt' think you'd want to go with anything rougher than about 200 grit and work up to 600-1000 grit.  Since you are starting with nicer plywood, you might want to start with 300 or so.  If you start too rough you are going to make your job MUCH harder and essentially add a lot of unnecessary work!

4.  No, an orbital sander isn't good for wood, where there is a grain you will want to sand WITH the grain.  Going against the grain will make the wood even rougher and give unpleasant results on the appearance.

5.  Test some stain and finish on some scrap wood!  Get some practice first.  That is the best suggestion I can give.

Wade

[Flinkly]

when staining, i use steel wool instead of sand paper.  and as for poly, i use deft and nothing else.  choose what you want for shine, and choose well.  as for using poly, thats when the sand paper should come in.  sand between coats and don't put too much on.  stop putting it on when you get it nice and smooth.  usualy two or three coats.  good luck.

[DrewKaree]

I'm going to stain my birch cocktail cab a shade of blue.

Are you talking an aniline dye or one of those tinted stains (Minwax, I think, is who makes those)

My plan is to put on several light coats of stain and sand in between each coat and then seal it with several light coats of poly.  The goal is to be able to have that smoth glass-like finish and to not have to worry about spilling my beer on it.

Stain is not like paint.  If you want a darker shade, let it sit on the wood longer.  If you want a darker color after waiting as long as you think is necessary, try it again.  After a certain point (usually the second long-waiting-time coat) you won't improve the darkness and risk ruining the piece. 

I've heard that finishing a piece of furniture takes some time

Time, patience, work, and the right tools. 

1.  Is there a recommended brand/type of stain and poly for this project?
2.  How many coats for the stain and the poly is typical?
3.  What type of grit should the sandpaper be for sanding in between coats?
4.  Should I invest in an orbital sander or is doing it by hand sufficient?
5.  Any other tips?

1.  Use a wood conditioner (Minwax makes one, other techniques aren't worth going into - they'll just add confusion....but you CAN use something other than theirs).  It'll help even out the stain coloring.

2.  1 of stain (mebbe 2) poly depends on whether you like it or not.  1-3 is normal.

3.  Make sure your poly has cured, otherwise your sandpaper will gum up.  Use progressively finer grits.  Start with 600-ish on the first go-round.  Follow it up with something 800-1000-ish.  On your final "I think this is it" coat, after the finest grit, clean it all off, apply a coat of rubbing compound and buff that off, and finish with a coat of wax.  I've found auto wax works just fine for that.  The furniture wax is just overpriced and does exactly the same thing

4.  An ORBITAL sander isn't the way to go.  A RANDOM-ORBITAL sander will work just fine.  There's a definite difference, and I think unless you're using auto-body equipment, an ORBITAL sander would be hard to find.

5.  Get several plastic drop cloths.  Tape 'em up.  Make yourself a "booth" to do this work in.  Dust will be your enemy. 

If you want to make this something you'll feel comfortable setting your beer on, use something called "Spar varnish" instead of polyurethane.  It's tougher and more resistant to spills/liquid sitting atop it.  Standard poly may develop a ring from your beer mug.  Spar varnish is used for outdoor furniture and marine applications (prolly other stuff, but those are two biggies)

Do both sides.  (don't have to sand/seal/wax the unseen side to the same quality, but apply the same products to both sides)  You may warp your wood if you only do one side (after some time, and chances aren't huge, but it may happen, and if you want to avoid it, it probably WILL happen )

As Wade said, don't load the finish on all at once, light coats to build up are better.  One thick coat may not cure fully for a week or more!

If you want a darker initial stain color, sand one piece of scrap wood with 60 grit, one with 100 grit, one with 200, and one with 400.  The lower the number, the darker your stain will be (i.e. 60 should be darker than 400).  After some grits, the color looks like ass.  You'll need to experiment to find out what you'll like.

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE STEEL WOOL!  If some fibers come off and embed themselves in your wood, over time they may rust, at which point they will make themselves noticeable and quite hideous to you.  The chances of that happening aren't worth the hassle.  Use a Scotch-Brite pad (they're the green scrub pads you can find at Wal-Mart....different "grits" can be found....black is coarsest, green is medium coarse, white is fine....I think they make a blue which is ultra-fine, but I may be off my rocker on that one

If you really want a nice finish, spray the poly/varnish.

[javeryh]

WOW!  Thanks everyone.  This information is incredibly helpful.  I love these boards...

[quarterback]

If you want to make this something you'll feel comfortable setting your beer on, use something called "Spar varnish" instead of polyurethane.

Hey DK, what's the thick clear plastic-y surface that some wooden bar/restaurant tables have that's usually like 1/4" thick?   

[tommy]

If you really want that "glass like finish" as most folks do, i suggest getting your self some blue glass (yes there is blue mirror/glass)  and get it cut to match the side of your cab.

There is also peach, grey , bronze, pink, and many other colors ,you just need to know where to get it.

[Trimoor]

Don't sand in between coats of stain (if you use more than one).  Instead, wipe and buff the excess stain off.  Test this on scrap!  You will get huge variations for waiting time.

Use a nylon brush for the poly, not natural fiber.  The fibers/hairs always break off and embed themselves in the poly.  Nylon brushes are melted together inside the handle.

[DrewKaree]

If you want to make this something you'll feel comfortable setting your beer on, use something called "Spar varnish" instead of polyurethane.

Hey DK, what's the thick clear plastic-y surface that some wooden bar/restaurant tables have that's usually like 1/4" thick?   

More than likely a two-part epoxy.  It's just built up with a few thick coats, mebbe a single.  I've never done it like this, but I found out when I read the directions on the stuff used for like embedding coins, coasters, etc. that this could be done for something like that.  It's REAL pricey to do it, though.  The upside is that other than cigarette burns, it doesn't seem as if you could hurt it at all

Here's a link to the stuff I used for the thick slab-o-glass look:
http://www.shopmaninc.com - Kleer Koat

It says it dries clear, and it does for the most part.  It's not a "crystal" clear, it does have a tinge of that color.

The better stuff (and DEFINITELY more pricey) is this stuff here:
http://www.woodcraft.com - Mirror Coat

That second link is THE good stuff, but unless it's a small project, I wouldn't recommend it.  It's WAY overpriced and the stuff in the first link will give you results you'll be happy with for a LOT less money.  I used the Mirror Coat in an end table top that was tiled, with the Mirror Coat in the center replacing a tile and they wanted some stuff looking like it was under glass there.  It's totally clear, as opposed to the slight tinge of the Kleer Koat, so the Kleer Koat wouldn't have worked, but we framed in a bar and used the Kleer Koat for a ³/₄" thick top over some sports memorabilia for a bar top....woulda cost us triple to use the Mirror Coat, and the look wouldn't have made one bit of difference.

To give you an idea of the tinge of the Kleer coat, you'd have to have looked through some old glass (ya know, that wavy kind, the kind that LOOKS like it's ancient?).  Not a dramatic difference, but you just know there's something "different" with it.

[quarterback]

Hey DK, what's the thick clear plastic-y surface that some wooden bar/restaurant tables have that's usually like 1/4" thick?

[DrewKaree]

The two products ARE different, tho.  Spar varnish is prolly what anything wooden you've ever seen on a boat has been finished in, although I bet that epoxy finish would work pretty well for it too!

I hadn't ever really worked with the epoxy stuff until last year...neat stuff, but like all epoxy, a pain in the ass to deal with when you need more time to work with it and it's starting to set up

[javeryh]

Is it possible to apply poly to a piece of wood and get an even smooth finish if it has been sanded and stained on one part and sanded and painted on another part?  The plans I'm using (for a cocktail cab) call for black paint on the inside part of the sides with stain on the outside... will this work?

[javeryh]

Is it possible to apply poly to a piece of wood and get an even smooth finish if it has been sanded and stained on one part and sanded and painted on another part?

[Avery]

Assuming the stain and the paint are both properly cured, and the coating you put on is compatable with the paint and stain you are using, I'd think you'd be in the clear.  If your poly if formulated in something that tends to strip your paint or lift the stain, well, that would be a problem.

I'll bet there is a web site for the manufacturer of your poly (or even a help line).  If you're not sure, check with them.  Have the product names of your paint and stain handy and see what they say.  Or just put some paint and stain on a piece of scrap wood and see what happens.  Better than trashing all of your work.

[DrewKaree]

The poly is a film-building finish.  It's akin to putting a clear coat over whatever you're putting it on.  It'll work just fine for paint AND stain, but the stained piece and its smoothness will count on your level of sanding/finishing on the stained piece.