Split "Everything Else" into two boards?

[saint]

Should a "Debate" board be created as a child of the "Everything Else" board? Religion, politics, and current events would be moved from Everything Else into Debate.

[GGKoul]

No we don't need one... As there will be MORE mud slinging in this Debate board then good.

Plus having a Debate only board will bring Debate first people to the forum then BYOAC first people who happen to like Debating.  As 99% of the people that on are this forum found this site because they were interested in BYOAC first... not debating. 

As I for one don't want see more TAPilots on this forum.  As we should be debating the concepts of building Arcade Controls, and not get in to a hard core debate on Religion and Politics were peoples feelings get hurt.  I say, we "ban" these topics instead of building another forum.

I'm Canadian, and I travel to the US all the time for work.  And there is a couple of small talk topics I don't bring up with my American colleagues...  Gun Control, Who you voted for and Reglion.  As there is nothing I can say nor they can say that will change mine or there outlook to the world.

And I don't want my favourite forum to become a place of "bickering" between members that are here to share experiences building Arcade Controls.

[Chris]

I wonder how many other "no" votes are also a vote for no controversial topics at all...

[quarterback]

I wonder how many other "no" votes are also a vote for no controversial topics at all...

I think that GGK's vote is only partially a "no controversial topic" vote.  He does seem to have a specific concern that things would get worse with a separate forum (and doesn't seem 'against' leaving things as they are.)

But, as I noted in the other thread, I don't personally agree that splitting it would bring in any more outside-arguers than keeping things the same.  I also don't think a split would cause more work for the mods.  I could be wrong, but in my view it's "6 one way, 1/2 dozen the other".  The mods will either have to respond to troubles in one forum or in another.  So I simply don't see a downside to splitting it.  It seems win/win to me.   All the content stays for those who want it, but it gets moved to a place where people don't have to see it.

But, along the same lines as your question, Chris, I've wondered how many "I don't care either way. But it's acceptable the way it is" votes end up being "no" votes.

[GreenKnight37]

I voted No, simply because I don't believe this is necessary.  It is a bit to extreme to set aside a forum simply for the purpose of deliberately posting topics which will encourage heated, flame-warring, debates.

If a debate/controversy develops, it will do so naturally in a thread.  After awhile, the thread will just die out and go away.  But to have an entire forum, which not only fosters but promotes and encourages starting new flame-wars, doesn't seem like the greatest idea.

I love the Everything Else forum, and I think the current format suits it best.  While there is some controversy over banning certain topics from being discussed, its ultimately up to the individual User to read or not read, to participate or not participate, in a thread. 

[Daniel270]

Shouldn't it be a requirement (of sorts) to be an active member on the arcade parts of the forum to be considered "eligible" to participate on the debate parts of the Everything Else forums?  It would definitely help some to keep it from becoming more out of hand than normal.....

[screaming]

  No. It's a rediculous idea and it will stifle otherwise real quality discussion.

   Most of the time hot topics don't get started as hot topics.  A lot of times when people post a topic it turns into a hot topic, and I think it should be left up to the original poster (or even a mod) to bring the topic back on track.  Not "Big Brother" by moving the post to another forum where it will NEVER get back on track.

-sab

[quarterback]

[monkeybomb]

I've already said this in the other thread but I want this emphasized.

Everything else inludes arcade and video game topics.

If it didn't I wouldn't care.

I come hear to escape from Tom Delay and the pope and I don't want to have to read their name at all when I'm just looking for gaming related issues.  It brings me out of the spirit of retro gaming and into my opinions of politics.  Even though it is internal for myself and even if I don't read the thread, I have still be mentally pulled from the reason I came.

Personally I would be just as happy to have a split which was -
Everything else gaming
Everything else non-gaming

I would lose the cool EE topics but I can deal with that.

[Stingray]

Yes, I agree that crap should be moved into the sewer.

-S

[screaming]

How on earth would a new forum somehow stifle discussion?

    Please see my previous post for the answer to this question.

You can visit dvdtalk.com, talk about all aspects of DVDs, and share friendly help, with your DVD-loving peers, about what to do in Chicago and how to put together a good teriyaki sauce without having to look at a debate about whether or not AIDS is man made or things like "They won't get their liberal club membership card until they blame Bush for not curing cancer yet."

  Well if you want to compare apples to apples, I think we need to wait for this BBS to reach 45,555 members like the DVDTalk forum.  Maybe then we'll have enough political posts to warrant a new forum just for politics. 

  I challenge you to do a search on this BBS.

1) Set Search for to: pope bush god
2) Select Match any words
3) Set Message Age to 0-3 days (the number of days in the first page of Everything Else)
4) Uncheck all forums except for Everything Else
5) Click Search.

  I just did this and I came up with 3 posts. 1 from you, and the other two used the search terms as an expression ("Good God, man!").

   You have a problem with not reading 3 posts to get to your Applebees complaints and chicken marinade recipies?   That just seems a silly to me (and a little rediculous) and certainly doesn't warrant a whole new forum.

-sab

[screaming]

Personally I would be just as happy to have a split which was -
Everything else gaming
Everything else non-gaming

  Saint, if you feel something needs to be done about the extraneous posts I vote for monkeybomb's idea.

-sab

[GGKoul]

Personally I would be just as happy to have a split which was -
Everything else gaming
Everything else non-gaming

[monkeybomb]

Everything else gaming is already Arcade Miscellaneous....

Again, I say we need a Control Panel forum before another forum gets created

But that's not where the ultracade and mame licence got moved to.  They are gaming and went to EE

[Shape D.]

But that's not where the ultracade and mame licence got moved to.  They are gaming and went to EE

Thats because it wasn't arcade related, and had its own different form of politics.

[Stingray]

A general chat section and a politics & religion section would work best. Almost every angry flame war (or regular war for that matter) starts over politics or religion.

-S

[quarterback]

How on earth would a new forum somehow stifle discussion?

[Crazy Cooter]

A general chat section and a politics & religion section would work best. Almost every angry flame war (or regular war for that matter) starts over politics or religion.

-S

Or splitting the EE board.

I don't think it's the topics so much as the bickering that results.  Look at the attacks building up in this thread.  Like I said before, we debate about everything.

[screaming]

(1) Your previous post has no example of how discussion will be stifled.

  Sure it does. Read, it again and maybe you'll get it now.

(2) Your search-challenge is meaningless.  Doing a search from the last 3 days is irrelevant.

  Not really.  It's a testament to how often a "hot topic" is introduced to the EE forum.    As an administrator, that would probably be the first place I would look to find out if I needed a new forum because that would tell me about how much activity the new forum would get. I've only looked at the past 3 days, but 1 post a day (note that this is not 1 thread a day) doesn't seem like enough to warrant an entire new forum.

But if you need to see nasty political discussion erupt in the EE forum in the next 48 hours to convince you that it happens, I'm sure that somebody can oblige.  Maybe somebody will invite TA Pilot back.

  As noted several times, I'm not disagreeing with you that it doesn't happen.  I'm just saying it doesn't happen enough for a whole new forum.  I'm not sure how many many different ways I can say it.

If you'd take a second to think about the other people on this forum and what they might or might not want, then maybe you'd understand why I support the separation of the forums.

   Oh would you please point me to the post from you where you are clearly explaining your point of view on this topic for the sake of the Arcade Controls community?  I did a search but I couldn't find it.  If you haven't said it yet then I can't think of a better time than now!

THE SKY IS FALLING!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

  I think creating a whole new forum for a few posts is just drastic.  The posts where people are obstinately spewing religious or political rhetoric are a little annoying, but I just don't see what's so dang hard with just plain not hitting the "Reply" button.

  To be honest, I'm getting to that point in replying to your posts in this thread.  We're all good guys here but this is getting a little tedious.

-sab

[screaming]

A general chat section and a politics & religion section would work best. Almost every angry flame war (or regular war for that matter) starts over politics or religion.

-S

Or splitting the EE board.

I don't think it's the topics so much as the bickering that results.  Look at the attacks building up in this thread.  Like I said before, we debate about everything.

  ...and this thread just started out as a simple 2-option poll!  With the risk of becoming post-police, I think the community here needs to get a little more responsible with their own threads.  If I start a thread, that thread becomes my responsibility to maintain and make sure it stays on-topic unless I deem the off-topic subject is okay.  That way people that have problems with flamewars can only blame the creator of the thread and not the entire community.

   Maybe then certain people will eventually get reputations that will keep other certain people out of their threads and make it easier to ignore flamewar threads.

  No new forums, just responsible thread owners

-sab

[APFelon]

I don't understand why so many people are arguing so vehemently against creating a new forum dedicated to hot-topic issues. Perhaps someone can answer a few questions so I can properly put this whole thing into perspective.

Are the number of subforums allowed by BYOAC that finite? Someone argued that EE shouldn't be split because we need a CP subforum first. Why is this an either/or situation? Why not ask for both?

How does creating a subforum dedicated to political and religious thought stifle free expression? That's like saying building a church stifles religion. If anything, I would expect political and religious threads to increase on BYOAC.

Compare the subforum for Conga lines to a subforum for political and religious rants. Conga lines can be annoying. Threads poking humor at the Pope's death can be annoying and offensive to some. Why was there no one arguing against creating a subforum for Conga lines? Did they pass the "X amount of posts per day" criteria that some are using as a litmus test?

While believing that an Internet forum community can be self-policing is a great idea, it is a little naive. Having an unenforced "gentleman's rule" for an Internet forum is like having no rule at all. Asking someone to be responsible for themselves and their actions while they post anonymously on an Internet  forum? Yikes.

Look, I don't think that splitting hot-topic discussion away from non-political talk is going to be a disservice to anyone. If I were a moderator, I'd think it would be in the forum's best interest to maintain a certain comfort level for my users and guests. Create the forum, and if it doesn't get used, sack it or keep it around as a pressure valve for the next time some culture war topic comes around.

I just don't see how anyone would think this is a bad idea It's a win-win situation for everyone, IMHO.

APf

[tommy]

This is how the freedoms in the world get narrowed down to nothing,one person gets insulted and everyone pays, we have people censoring everything these days....if you dont like what you see or read DONT LOOK OR READ IT that should be the end of the story, why does everyone on the forum or whatever the case may be have to pay for it.



Follow the rules and the EE section is no worse then your local news.

[Chris]

This is how the freedoms in the world get narrowed down to nothing,one person gets insulted and everyone pays, we have people censoring everything these days....if you dont like what you see or read DONT LOOK OR READ IT that should be the end of the story, why does everyone on the forum or whatever the case may be have to pay for it.

Please explain to me how it is censoring to create a dedicated board for political and religious topics? 

[screaming]

Are the number of subforums allowed by BYOAC that finite? Someone argued that EE shouldn't be split because we need a CP subforum first. Why is this an either/or situation? Why not ask for both?

  No, the number of subforums are not finite (technically).

  I'm pretty sure that person wasn't considering it as an either/or situation, I think he was just trying to state his opinion that a CP subforum was to him (and should be to Saint) a higher priority.

How does creating a subforum dedicated to political and religious thought stifle free expression?

  I assume you're referring to my post about "stifling" useful discussion? "Free expression" and "useful discussion" are completely different things.  I'm not sure where you came up with the "stifling free expression" thing.

Compare the subforum for Conga lines to a subforum for political and religious rants. Conga lines can be annoying. Threads poking humor at the Pope's death can be annoying and offensive to some. Why was there no one arguing against creating a subforum for Conga lines? Did they pass the "X amount of posts per day" criteria that some are using as a litmus test?

  I don't know the answer to that question.. I don't pay attention to conga lines (unless they're made up of girls in bikinis, but that's a different thing I think)   If there is a difference, I think it's that people don't find "conga lines" offensive, just mearly annoying.

While believing that an Internet forum community can be self-policing is a great idea, it is a little naive. Having an unenforced "gentleman's rule" for an Internet forum is like having no rule at all.

  And Utopian, I know, but it leaves the onus up to the thread owner and no one else, so they suffer the consequences directly as opposed to people like monkeybomb.  I've seen other BBS software that allows you to give "rep points" to people that post well.  Maybe something like that could be instituted here?  Would that help do you think?

Look, I don't think that splitting hot-topic discussion away from non-political talk is going to be a disservice to anyone. If I were a moderator, I'd think it would be in the forum's best interest to maintain a certain comfort level for my users and guests. Create the forum, and if it doesn't get used, sack it or keep it around as a pressure valve for the next time some culture war topic comes around.

  So far this is the first real argument I've read in favor of a new forum.  I really think this is a valid point, but here's what I'm afraid of:

  If I post something in EE, like my random number generator post, that doesn't really have so much to do with religion but it was misconstrued as theological rhetoric until I clarified it again.   What would have happened to that post?  I'm afraid of the moderators being too draconian in moving it into a forum where it's just going to get lambasted before it even had a chance! 

  No, I don't think the mods here are like that and I understand mistakes like that will happen, but since every single one of us is affected by religion, politics, and/or Terri Schiavo the line is much much grey-er than, say, EE-gaming/EE-non-gaming.

-sab

P.S. Kudos again, APFelon, for your rational and well-articulated post.

[Stingray]

This is how the freedoms in the world get narrowed down to nothing,one person gets insulted and everyone pays, we have people censoring everything these days....if you dont like what you see or read DONT LOOK OR READ IT that should be the end of the story, why does everyone on the forum or whatever the case may be have to pay for it.

No one is suggesting that these topics should be deleted, or not allowed. We just want to move them into another area. I don't understand why you think this is a bad idea. You and others say if you don't like them, don't read them. Moving them into their own forum will make it easier for us to do so.

-S

[Chris]

Moving them into their own forum will make it easier for us to do so.

And I think that's exactly what some people don't like.  It's harder to force your views on people if they don't come to where you're ranting.

I live in Augusta, GA.  A couple of years ago, Martha Burk and her organization wanted to come down and protest the Masters.  She wanted to protest at the main gate, but our local authorities decided she was a hazard to their revenue stream and set aside a separate area for her to protest in, a half a mile away.  She protested the moving of her protest to no avail, and hardly anyone noticed her there.

Although this is bad for real-world political protest, it is good for a board like this, which is supposed to be about arcade controls and not politics.  The political and religious talk here is a sideshow, so let's move the sideshow into it's own tent so everyone can enjoy the rest of the carnival.

--Chris

[missioncontrol]

I try to pretty much stay out of any thread that is full of debating....

I enjoy reading the non-debate everything else threads.....

I say make it a child board of the everything else.......

[Crazy Cooter]

Look guys, at some point everyone of us will take offense to a thread or two.  My feeling is that it's just the nature of the internet.  I don't see a point in creating a subforum for topics that people may find offensive.  If things get completely out of hand, the topic goes to post hell (which I would love to be able to read btw;)).

You guys shouldn't need "help" to not read a thread.  The EE forum is the sideshow of this site, it's not 100% politically correct, nor should it have to be.  It's a place to cut loose.

Why not have separate threads for EVERYTHING?  Presidental politics can be one, congressional politics could be another, Rice should definately have her own, then have one for each religion, one for each part of the Bill of Rights, One for each controversial news topic, etc.  Get my drift?  This website is about arcade stuff.  It is divided into different categories of arcade stuff.  The rest of "life" is dumped in the EE forum.  That makes sense to me and should make it clear to newcomers what this site is about.

[Nobody take the following personally]
Let's be realistic, this is the internet, prepare to be offended/lied to/cheated/sworn at/etc.  To ask that Saint and the other mods try to create a safe haven for each of our beliefs is not only asking a LOT, it's also contradictory.  My beliefs are not yours, yours are not mine.  Like I said at the start, at some point we will all be offended.  It's OUR responsibility to act responsibly.  Lighten up, maybe all this debate really is funny.  Besides, we're all missing the real issue.  Which is PETROLEUM!

[tommy]

This is how the freedoms in the world get narrowed down to nothing,one person gets insulted and everyone pays, we have people censoring everything these days....if you dont like what you see or read DONT LOOK OR READ IT that should be the end of the story, why does everyone on the forum or whatever the case may be have to pay for it.

Please explain to me how it is censoring to create a dedicated board for political and religious topics?

[monkeybomb]

Censoring would be to not allow the topics.  Giving them their own place doesn't even come close.  By the same logic you would say that talk about PCB's have been censored because they belong in the arcade Misc.  instead of everything else.

On the topic of giving everything it's own board and getting offended.  You guys are using extremes to make a point in a case where the logic doesn't hold true.  No one is offended by this  and it is clear that the line must be drawn well short of that.  Many people are offended when their core belief system is attacked or presented in a light manner.  It's not hard to see the difference.

The very hot topics are those that would be generally considered rude to discuss in person.  The topics basically boil down to religeon and politics.  Not subgroups of that and not every topic that could possably offend someone.  Just the obvious.  If it's not obvious to you then don't worry, it only needs to be obvious to Saint.

The argument "this is the internet" is absurd.  The board doesn't allow nudity.   But the internet does.

The very reason for this board is to create a nitch inside the intersent where we can comfotably talk about arcade related topics and a little bit about life.  A subforum would help add to that without taking anything away.  What exactly are you losing again?

[quarterback]

This is how the freedoms in the world get narrowed down to nothing,one person gets insulted and everyone pays, we have people censoring everything these days

I was infuriated in April 2003 when all artwork on BYOAC was censored and sent to its own forum. 

Real quality discussion was stifled that day and everybody on BYOAC paid a heavy price.   A heavy heavy price....

[Quarters]

Censorship is not really the point. I am a firm believer in a free speech internet. The Internet is a collection of sites each run by it's own ops according to the ops choice of rules.

All internet sites are censored. You can't post pictures of hardcore porn here on Saints site for example. Saints house, Saints rules, simple.  There are sites where hardcore porn is welcome. If you search I suspect you will find one or two . Because these sites exist I don't feel that the internet is very censored.

I'm not in favor of splitting EE this way because I think a 'hot topic' is hard to define and would be a nightmare for the moderators to enforce. If someone puts a G. Dubya Bush reference in a reply to a post about motorcycles? Where does the topic end up? How about someone saying 'thank Jesus' is a post about saving a vintage cab? I think the EE forum suites this purpose well already. With warning It gives a place for a community to voice opinions that could be off topic in other forums yet still be within the boundaries of saints more relaxed  rules.

Too much fragmentation can be the death of discusion.

[GGKoul]

All internet sites are censored. You can't post pictures of hardcore porn here on Saints site for example. Saints house, Saints rules, simple.  There are sites where hardcore porn is welcome. If you search I suspect you will find one or two . Because these sites exist I don't feel that the internet is very censored.

You can't post pictures of girls that are wearing "painted tops" either... 

[Crazy Cooter]

It makes sense to categorize the subjects which this site is about.  Looking for artwork?  Ask the artwork gurus, looking for monitor info, ask the monitor gurus, it makes it easy to build a cabinet.  Everything else is less important.  That's why it's all jumbled into a single forum.  If there was a religion/politics furum, there'd be religious/political gurus around.  That's not what the site is about.  Those topics are less important.  That's why some of us would like to see a separate forum for CP design.  That has more importance to the "theme" of this site than both religion and politics.

IMO, it boils to this:  A subforum for political/religious debate would encourage that topic to grow just like the forums for artwork etc have encouraged those topics to grow into a larger part of the site.  It's self defeating.  It's easier to stay out of the couple threads that are around now, than the 20+ that would be around.

What we would lose is the focus of this site.  Suppose for an instant that nudity was allowed but was granted its own forum.  It would take off.  People would come for that and not the arcade info.  Same thing with this, it's already happened in the past with political discussions.  An entire forum dedicated to controversial topics would only turn into a "fight club" and corrode the friendly atmosphere (99.99% of the time anyhow ).  A wise man once said: "You reap what you sow".

[quarterback]

IMO, it boils to this:

[monkeybomb]

I agree with the QB. 

Saint are you still reading?   Is there a point to this anymore?  Any chance for a switch to take place or have you decided against it?

I'd be intersted in the perspective of the moderators as well.

[SirPeale]

Why was there no one arguing against creating a subforum for Conga lines?

Well, I did, but I don't count.  That sub forum is pretty hidden now, just one tiny link right underneath the buy/sell/trade forum.

[Stingray]

It makes sense to categorize the subjects which this site is about.  Looking for artwork?  Ask the artwork gurus, looking for monitor info, ask the monitor gurus,

Looking to get into a heated argument? Look in the Politics & Religion section.


 

Everything else is less important.  That's why it's all jumbled into a single forum.  If there was a religion/politics furum, there'd be religious/political gurus around. 

This seems unlikely. Atari Age has a Politics & Religion section. I don't think anyone goes to Atari Age just for that section. The people in there are folks who are into vintage video games and are also interested in discussing P & R.

That's why some of us would like to see a separate forum for CP design.

As a few others have pointed out, it's not a one or the other situation. There's no reason why there couldn't be both. However in my very humble opinion, there's no need for a separate forum for control panels. This is Build Your Own Arcade Controls, the main forum is for control panel related discussion.

IMO, it boils to this:  A subforum for political/religious debate would encourage that topic to grow just like the forums for artwork etc have encouraged those topics to grow into a larger part of the site.  It's self defeating.  It's easier to stay out of the couple threads that are around now, than the 20+ that would be around.

Well that's great for both sides of this discussion then isn't it? I mean you guys who like that kind of stuff will have more topics to view. Those of us who don't won't have to be bothered with them.

-S

[tommy]

Saint im just curious, will one vote change the outcome and when is the voteing over.

[quarterback]

Saint im just curious, will one vote change the outcome and when is the voteing over.

My guess is that this is a "poll for opinion" as opposed to a "deciding vote" and will simply allow saint to gauge people's feelings and come to his own decision.